not the other way around, wish I could have fit more in the title, but hopefully you get my point.

This is how I see it, it is only us guys, men, who need to be the ones to learn how to get a date, how to get a girlfriend, a girl doesn't need to learn how to get a date or get a boyfriend, because simply put, how does a girl need to learn how to get a date or get a boyfriend when she doesn't have to initiate anything, she doesn't have to do the approaching and asking out, planning and setting up dates, leading the interaction, escalating or progressing things, going in for the first kiss, escalate to sex, etc. it simply "just happens" for them? That's sure what it looks like.

Because typically the way you learn in life is by "doing", "applying", you won't get better at playing a piano, or a certain sport, martial art, if you don't practice regularly, and since all girls have to do is pretty much just dress up and look good, and just stand there, just be passive, they don't really have to take any social actions on their part, because they don't have to be the ones to start conversations, ask for the number, ask out, and all the rest you know, etc. So it makes you wonder what they have to learn.

Gold Jacket Luke, who posts here a lot, he even said this quote when discussing his favorite book the Alabaster Girl: "Also girls have it easier when it comes to learning how to talk to and interact with the opposite sex because guys approach girls. It's the masculine role to initiate. So girls learn very young the basics even if they do nothing."

I already understand and realize that life, reality, society was never meant to be fair, sometimes it is hard to accept and deal with, but i'm also posting this because I find it interesting and curious to see how it works when you look at it from the other perspective, from the other persons shoes. Because it truly seems like it is primarily guys who have to learn, I don't see how girls have to learn since they are passive and don't have to take any social action on their part.

They learn when they really want a guy that doesn't chase them.

Lesson: Never chase. If she wants you, she will put in the work. Otherwise, you are wasting your time, energy, and money.

Ehhh IME even average and below average guys do some choosing. Getting friend zoned by fat and balding guys sucks.

I never understood what it meant for a girl to chase a guy, especially since girls almost never will initiate conversation with a guy first or ask a guy out first

You never will understand. Only Chads, tall brutes or prettyboys get chased by acceptable-looking women.

If a fat woman pursues you... it doesn't count. She see's you as beta-looking enough to think your not so popular with the trim ladies and thus accept her "flaws" (fat roles).

C'mon, how often do girls approach guys or ask guys out? Almost never

They might not literally ask a guy out per se. But they will flirt with them, give them IOI's quite often. I have been in the company of Chads and its the subtle things you observe that doesn't happen to most men: a girl trying to get his attention by brushing against him with her butt/teddies then saying "sorry", asking him for something, making small talk, smiling/fixed eye contact. This is what Chad gets that few other lesser-looking men understand. And then on dating sites... well... acceptable women regularly msg the hottest looking guys on the site. That counts as expressing interest first.

yet people still think men have it better than women, and another thing, accepting, taking responsibility for ones life, women can toss theirs off but men can't.

Somemen do have it better than 8+/10 girls. I don't know why this is hard for you to believe. You make approaching a girl sound like some monumental effort, but some men get pretty clear …I hate to use PUA jargon....indicators of interest. From a lot of different girls, all the time. I'd rather have that than constantly being approached by girls I don't want and having to reject them.

You're clearly depressed OP and have been depressed for a long time.

When someone is depressed they just dwell and ruminate on things. A waste of time. And that rumination just leads to more rumination and more depression. It's not healthy to ruminate like you do.

A non-depressed person would see all the benefits of being a male and enjoy the role of being more of an initiator.

Work on your depression man and realize this ruminating is not benefiting your life at all.

Best of wishes to you.

part of the reason why I made this post is because i'm interested and curious to know how it works when you look at it from another perspective, and I don't care about the benefits of being the initiator, I always have and always will hate, despise, detest, resent that gender role, social-norm with a huge passion, I hate, despise it so much, that it fills me with dark thoughts at times due to how much it feels like an injustice.

That’s all fine and dandy, but we didn’t make the rules.

Rather than trying to create new rules, or lamenting the rules, the objective should be to get good at playing by these rules.

ya, I bet you became great with women by your early to mid 20's I bet, had a girlfriend in your teens or early 20s I bet.

Gotcha.

I know lots of women hate and despise lots of things about their gender role too.

In our current age women have it pretty good. But imagine being a women for basically any other time period in human history. For lots of human history, women were often treated as subservant slaves. Always over-powered and ordered by men. Women have been raped an insane amount of times throughout human history, never had any rights, etc.


That's life.


If you were black 150 years ago you were a slave.

If you are a cow today, you are going to be put into a slave factor and live in a super crowded space, get raped to have milk, and be murdered to be eaten.

If you are a poor girl today in some third world countries you will be a sex slave.

Life isn't fair.



Ruminating will only make your life worse. You can choose to ruminate less and focus on things that will more benefit your life. Time to focus on the things you DO like about your gender role. Time to be grateful etc.

And like I said... you may have low serotonin which extra causes you to dwell on these negative things.

You may find that if you get over your depression... then almost magically you won't ruminate on this topic nearly as much, if at all.



It's time to stop ruminating, because those dark thoughts will make your life worse.

Accept the hand life dealt you, and do the best you can.

They learn when they really want a guy that doesn't chase them.

Lesson: Never chase. If she wants you, she will put in the work. Otherwise, you are wasting your time, energy, and money.

Hey! Guess what? Even if you DO successfully pass on your genes, and the “beta *******s” that are too scared don’t, at the end of the day both of you are dead, and neither of you are going to care who passed on what genes.

Wrong. Go back to Start. Do not pass go.

To be honest, it's actually females who quite often initiate through signals. If you are an attractive male who's on his purpose and do not have a needy energy with women, women will give signals. (flick their hair, eye contact, adding you on instagram etc.)

Then it's the man's job to recognize those signals and take action.

So it's really the women who initiate.

Zan Perrion, who is the best guy in the seduction community imho, talks about how he never approaches without being invited (talking about bodylanguage and recognizing symbols)

So it's the women who truly initiate.



Dude, Go MGTOW for awhile, focus on yourself and improving your life, stop ruminating about this, and as you focus on your goals and enjoying life maybe come back to thinking about dating then from a better place.


With your victim complaining attitude, you're going to scare off any decent women lol. Realize that your attitude is really hurting you. And you can change that.

To be honest, it's actually females who quite often initiate through signals. If you are an attractive male who's on his purpose and do not have a needy energy with women, women will give signals. (flick their hair, eye contact, adding you on instagram etc.)

Then it's the man's job to recognize those signals and take action.

So it's really the women who initiate.

Zan Perrion, who is the best guy in the seduction community imho, talks about how he never approaches without being invited (talking about bodylanguage and recognizing symbols)

So it's the women who truly initiate.



Dude, Go MGTOW for awhile, focus on yourself and improving your life, stop ruminating about this, and as you focus on your goals and enjoying life maybe come back to thinking about dating then from a better place.


With your victim complaining attitude, you're going to scare off any decent women lol. Realize that your attitude is really hurting you. And you can change that.

true, but obviously girls will never initiate in the sense of breaking the ice, starting the conversation first, yet a lot of guys stubbornly think we guys do the choosing, which I never bought and never will because obviously, girls dictate 100 percent of the outcome.

They don't initiate chit. Girls below your league might approach sometimes because they have nothing to lose and become desperate af, but even that is rare. Things girls have done to initiate with me

Tell their friends to come talk to me
Leave number on my car
Hint about things like giving them their number to do something else (they aren't just giving it out in fear of rejection)

Absolutely not. I had one GF in my 20’s. And she correctly dumped my ass.

I was shy to talk to girls, mentally not good, had a crappy job, and was happy to focus on my hobbies.

My lack of success was due 100% to me and my laziness. Nobody else is/was to blame.

I’ve had more success the last 10 years than any time in my life. I was a late bloomer.

Online and off. Got in decent shape, worked on my cardio, got a great job, got a better apartment, and my confidence grew.

I go into every date now not only seeing if I’m a good fit for her, but also if she is a good fit for me.

And it has nothing to do with looks because I’m an average looking guy. Never was chad, never will be chad.

Part of the reason I signed up here is that so the younger people don’t repeat my mistakes.

There was no internet when I was 20. We didn’t have anyone helping us, we learned by making many mistakes.

it also bothers me on how it's pretty much only guys, men, who have to be the ones to get their shyness, awkwardness, social anxiety or just any form of anxiety, awkwardness handled, one guy made a youtube comment and he ****in' pissed me off so damn much, it made me feel like killing him, but of course I would never dare do it, because I don't want to suffer the legal consequences, I believe it's only human nature to have those thoughts, we are just told to suppress it because of society, we have laws, rules, culture now, etc.


"Boo ****ing hoo. We also don't have to go through child birth and we're strong as ****. Testosterone gives us ambition + mental and physical strength that MANY (not all) women are lacking. Being a man has many benefits and with great power comes great responsibility. Stop crying about it and get your ****ing **** together"

gosh it made me feel like breaking his neck.

how long were you with for that girlfriend in your 20s?

Yeah men are supposed to act alpha, talk loud, be confident and all that but we are moving into an age where men are barely more alpha than women. Not all men are confident and loud spoken anymore. Like you said we have suppress our feelings because men aren't supposed to look weak. For example i never complain at work, i do my job efficiently every day, do not call in etc.......but i know the first time i complain a woman would make a smart comment or a guy would give me chit. You show any weakness as a man and people jump on you.

3 months.