And how long ago was that?

Obviously we are all different, and it's not unusual for some girls to like that neediness. However, I am responding to your specific situation in which the following happened:

> you had sex
> you became very available
> she began acting like a bitch

So I am just looking at it from that point and drawing a conclusion from there.

If, for instance it happened like this, then I'd change my tune:

> you had sex
> you became very available
> you had a great second date, split the bill, and she began to talk about future plans and had sex 3 times that same night

Which is likely what happened with your friends or other people you view as needy being able to maintain relationships, because they simply found someone from the smaller percentage of girls who 1) were ready for a relationship and 2) found that type of behavior endearing.

i'd just wait and see if she reached out. women are moody. not like i'd *wait* on her, i'd see other people....but i'd leave the door open.

ahh one of my fav fitzgerald quotes that def applies to dating:

'You'll find another.'
God! Banish the thought. Why don't you tell me that 'if the girl had been worth having she'd have waited for you'?

No, sir, the girl really worth having won't wait for anybody.LMAO

That is so savage and ruthless. Ha, sucks for a girl to read...

Does this still apply if the guy actually cares for the girl tho??

She's either in a legit bad mood over something or playing sh*t tests. You ask what's up? She chooses not to answer, then you calmly bid her goodnight, and leave. No questioning, no arguing, you just leave and let her contact you tomorrow or whatever when she's out of her pissy mood and explains her behavior.

Look dude, some people are selfish and this is what you deal with. You found out all about it on this date. Assuming you aren't giving some super one sided part of the story, this is textbook dating 101 right here. Woman is 50/50 on whether or not she likes you and then some tiny little thing happens that throws her off and you're done. Instead of being up front about it and saving you the time, they get their expensive drink/meal out of it and then ghost you. This is why you should save any sort of dinner/drinks/etc for a few dates in. I, along with many guys here, have learned this the hard way.

For her, it wasn't about wasting time, it was about justifying (in her head) why she doesn't want to see you again. Once again, this is if you're actually reading into it right and giving an honest assessment. This happens all the time and no woman on the planet is going to admit that wasting a dude's time is a bad thing to do. That would mean some serious changes in the dating game have to happen and we all know that's not possible.Because not ALL women want to play games. Some like being pursued and knowing a guy's interested instead of giving chit tests. Even then, they have their own chit tests. Oh, X guy hasn't texted me today, I'm not going to text him then. Never mind if he's super busy, I demand attention. This is how it works. People have their own tests and sometimes you find one that doesn't. I've dated a couple women that were honest and upfront. Looking back, I wish it would have worked out, it's sooooo much less mentally draining not having to play these stupid fcking games. And if any woman tries to justify why the game playing is important, she's not relationship material anyway. Just move on instantly.

I definitely think so. If I actually care for her, why wouldn't I back off a little bit and see how she responds to that? Backing off would either show me that her feelings are reciprocated or show me that she couldn't care less about where things went from here. Either way, I'll get my answer.

If it has been a while and you simply want confirmation, then you simply bite the bullet, extend an olive branch and if she bites, then you have your answer anyway. But there is absolutely no use in getting that into someone so quickly. There's a good quote we have in one of my old sales jobs that I feel absolutely applies:

Whoever talks first, loses.

I'm definetely not waiting for her. Problem is that I am extremely ambitious go getter. it's how I do most of the chit in my life. I have seperate things I do, but when I do them, each one gets full attention WHILE I am doing them. Women mistake this as being "needy". Ok, I spent the entire day lifting, renovating my house, playing music, and at work. I think about the girl for a second, decide to text her something that reminds me of her, and text back and forth for 5-10 minutes. literaly. only 5-10 minutes out of my day. but then suddenly the girl thinks "OMG this guy is texting me so much suddenly he must have NOTHING going on his life, he is so needy".

I need to find a girl that is mature enough to realize this. In the meantime I will just continue to date until I do.

In retrospect I should have done this, but they way she acted combined with her entitlement screamed she was taking advantage of me. it really pissed me off.



correction: she became very availabe as well. Don't make this seem like a one-sided thing. I feel like you and otaku have this impression that I am this over supplicating needy person when it comes to women. I may be one according to THEIR warped perception. I need to find someone like the second catagory, because I don't play games. Probably a unicorn in today's age

Lol, what kind of women are you talking to??

idk ANY woman who thinks a guy is obsessed with her based on a random text regarding an inside joke...other than a narcissist.
What?? Why would that apply to a rela where you're not trying to sell anything, just trying to connect? I really like my guy and I mean, I think he feels the same. We emphasized from the start, 'no games'. That has been a breath of fresh air and enabled me not to go into 'crazy girl mode'. I feel like, if you have something to say, give yourself the freedom to say it, so long as it actually contributes to an interesting discussion!
I just think like, it'd hurt me if my guy backed off after we were intimate and shared such a special moment together. I would be raw and vulnerable after sex, and I'd be looking for him to envelop me emotionally and give me affirmation that it wasn't just sex.
Now, I'm not saying he has to do that with words, cuz he doesn't...but reaching out and asking me to chill would mean a lot. Silence and waiting for me to initiate would make me insecure and hurt my feelings. That's just the honest truth...i think having sex makes a woman vulnerable and a caring guy knows that and makes her feel safe in his post-actions. [again, only applicable if he actually cares for her]

So, as a man, you'll have to find that ABSOLUTELY PERFECTLY BALANCE between showing that you care and that you are not needy. If she eventually backs off (like happened to OP) it's always the men's fault, for either a) showing too much interest or b) not showing enough interest.

This **** sure is frustrating, but eventually it becomes funny, lol.

psycho: after first date, unless she contacts first, there should be no contact for 2-3 days. If she reaches out to you, respond to her. A little delayed won't hurt especially if you can tell she was feeling you on the date. If she doesn't reach out within 2-3 days, hit her up, chit chat a bit, banter her and schedule the next date. ALWAYS let the woman set the text frequency if it is going to be daily.

You don't ream a girl out for paying for her you fukin idiot, no wonder she is all bitchy as you just made yourself seem so cheap yet you chirp about your financial success. You could just say "i'll get this one, you get the next one" or even give her a chance for a few dates and see if she offers. I've also mentioned during the date how I don't pay for women as I want them to like me for who I am and to ensure they are in it for the right reasons. As Ranger said, lessons learned, do not take her for dinner on date 1. Drinks or coffee ONLY IMO. Not even activity on first date (this should be for subsequent dates as it doesn't allow as much interaction to determine if there is a point in even continuing). And calm down I can sense the anger even in your posts, I can only imagine how you made her feel. Nahhh nahhh it ain't my personality, just LOL.

Did you porketta her real good atleast? Nedo special?

this is exactly my point. I texted the next day probably 5-10 minutes total. one of those texts was an inside joke from the prevous night that reminded me of her. and apparently to Pondus and Vick, that is wayyyyy to needy and the reason why I am FA.

the reason why I am FA is becuase I took 5-10 minutes to text the next day with a girl that I had SEX with already, and then choose to answer her phone call the next day when SHE CALLED ME.

let the ridiculousness of that sink in.
no contact after 2-3 days after having sex? lol. seems a little ridiculous. but I guess that is what american women want! (durrrr).

Jesus. You mother****er. Let it go. Let that woman act like a woman. That's normal womanly behaviour. Do you get mad at a cat for acting like a cat, for ignoring you and then coming to you and then ignoring you again?

Sure, we give hints here and there, but ultimately her reactions will be related to her gut and there are 10001 factors you can not control, I mean, she will react differently even accordingly to the date of the month (menstrual cycle).

Accept that you can't control everything. Forgive yourself for eventually ****ing up. Learn from the situation. Understand that probably it was more about her than about you.

Forgive yourself, you clearly put blame for this on yourself and you keep going around in circles trying to justify your own actions. Nobody here said that you're the only one to blame.

Facts: Right now seems like she's not that into you. Maybe she will never be much into you again. Accept it. Deal with it. Embrace the pain. Let it go. For Christ's Sake.

You called her out; not the worst thing - who cares, she acted like a bitch and she gets treated like one. The only reason I suggested walking away was in-case she legit had a bad day/news.

There's ironically a lot of pandering going on here as to what you should have done in order maximize her attraction towards you. IMO,that'ssupplicating and pedestaling a woman even more than what you did.

One consideration I rarely see on this forum - it's 90% about the delivery orhowyou say something - more than what you say. You could have whined like a bitch, or called her out firmly for wasting your time --- big difference.

Which just proves Vick's point. Women have to care more than men in the beginning or else they lose interest due to the man not being a challenge.

This proves your logical mind isn't even aware of your emotional mind.

If only FA's would listen to us, Vick and Nedo, there wouldn't be an FA in the world.

The cold hard fact is, after psy had sex, he stopped triggering her emotional mind because he thought he had already won. She **** tested him because of it and he failed.

Keep in mind, **** tests ARE NOT CONSCIOUS. Women don't know they are doing it. It's an emotional reaction to something that doesn't make sense to them.

"He was so challenging and mysterious before we had sex, then he turned into a chump. Is he a chump or not? I must test him."

<failed **** test ensues>

"Yep, he is actually a chump"

I really need to write that lesson.She slept with him on the first date and agreed to a second date. He 100% ****ed it up and he will not learn how to correct it unless he accepts it.

Would have they lived happily ever after, otherwise? Who knows, but he shot himself in the foot and now we will never know.

Stop patting him on the back and giving him a participation medal. He's only responsible for 50%, but he ****ed up 100% of his 50%.

Listen, if you are doing everything right, YOU will be the one ending it, not her.

I 100% turned into a chump with Leti. I've analyzed it and owned it. I know exactly what I did wrong and even know why I stuck it out longer than I should have. It's all been sorted and learned from.

Learn from this Psy. Don't make excuses.

The **** tests actually never stop, even in a LTR.

You don't get it brah.

Game playing is what women do. That's like getting mad at a child for acting like a child. If you want a woman who doesn't play games, you have to do this:

a) invest zero emotion for the first few dates (this is a good start to avoid what you're going through now)
b) understand what happened to you is probably going to happen again
c) keep looking until you find a woman who doesn't play this **** (good luck and tell me if you find anyone)

I have to tell myself the same crap all the time. I sit there and use logic and things don't make sense but that's because I'm applying my own brain to the situation. That's not how it works. How it works is she wants to feel rejected and wanted all at the same time so you're caring and mysterious and aloof and charming and mean and nice and etc etc etc. Don't think about it, just understand how it works. I don't want to play those games either so my only way to handle it is to just pretty much ignore what's going on.

Example: Met a girl a couple days ago. Give her my number. She texts me that night saying how she thinks I'm interesting, blah blah blah. I text back something decent and nice and then I get a text back about 12 hours later. I respond and then another 10-12 hours. I respond and then another 10-12 hours. She's showing interest but it's obvious game playing so instead of wondering wtf is going on, I'm moving the fck on. It's not worth it. Women will justify WHY they play games and they'll try to make it sound like you're the idiot for not accepting that game playing is ok. Just move the fck on and find one that doesn't do this crap.

Move
the
fck
on

Update: miss "are you always this cawky" responds to "how has your week been". SHOCKER, only with "not too bad, how about you". Got to actually text normal n chit now wtf lol.

PS - Never get mad at a woman for using you for drinks, dinner by the way.

Either don't do it in the first place (lesson learned like I said earlier) or swallow the anger/pride and never talk to her again.

I had a couple dates with a woman once. She was really nice. For our 4th date (I think it was 4th) I STUPIDLY took her to a nice dinner. Dropped some money on it, had an amazing time. We laughed and joked for 3 hours, she told me I was great, etc. Never heard from her again after that. I could have exploded on her for wasting my money like that but instead I just swallowed my pride and accepted it. This is what being a man is all about. Sticks, stones, words, insults, all of it has to bounce off of you. Accept that. Make a mental change in yourself now.

this is exactly my point. what I was doing was NOT out of any true neediness, and the very act of modifying my behavior with the intent to keep the women attracted, even though said behavior would appear less needy to women (according to vick and pondus), is ironically putting the women more on a pedestal.

I feel that some of the women you get more power over are those women that actually have shown interest towards you, you reciprocated to some extent but never actually made a move or were too much serious about it.

For some reason, those girls will always leave their door opened to you because they will always wonder on why didn't you make a move and will always think that you're superior to them and that's why you didn't even care to get 'em.

Golden advice.

I will pay you a dinner once you come to Portugal so you can get over that, brah (no homo, srs).

Right...well not sure of your references to vick and P, but I do know if a woman really likes you, she's happy for you to text and reach out. Especially for an inside joke to show that you cross her mind in the gaps of the day...very romantic. Again though, only well received when a woman actually likes you. There is something to be said for building interest before you get to the point of locking her down...altho you already crossed the sex barrier, so that seems like clear interest to me!
no actually...i don't agree with that! i would be pretty rattled and hurt if he waited 2-3 days before contacting me after sex. it seems unnatural to do that. why can't people just go with what feels natural, within reason? like, you were super intimate last night. what's the problem with talking the next day?

i really don't see one. what i do see is how bad i'd feel if he waited a few days until contacting me. i'd really be questioning myself and feeling insecure, and that's not a happy place to be.
LOL...that only applies if he's putting on an act.

If he starts from day 1 with a pure heart of gold, and wholly as himself....he's able to keep it up through all of his actions, and never make you question him once along the way.
Which is essentially who I'm seeing right now. NO GAMES is our motto. I would've been so insecure and mindfcked along the way, had he not been so confidently transparent, caring and kind. He never made me wait, he always validated me, never played games...he is such a great guy and he never made me feel insecure or question myself. That really speaks to the heart of any woman....

Nevermind what it seems like, clearly you have NO CLUE what you are doing so I suggest you listen bud.

Justification: you message her like you did the next day, it COULD come off desperado/thirsty and clearly shows you don't have options. Whereas if you don't message she is wondering about: if you with someone else/dating others, if you are interested (especially this), OMMMGGGG was I good in bed with him, why you aren't messaging like other betas/why are you different, etc. If she is interested, her mind is GOING OFF the entire next day because she has not heard from you. When she does hear from you, she knows instantly that she has you and the challenge is not there as much.

The only time I wouldn't respond to her if she reached out the next day is if she reached out late in the night. During this time, again, she is wondering all the things I mentioned above and then you can just respond in the morning and mention how you feel asleep but only if she asks. If you can get into her head, this is a big part of the battle. You want to create scenarios where you are on her mind, always look for ways to do this (even in relationship) aka mind fuark.

Pretty much this. Its mentally taxing to constantly prepare yourself to through out scripted responses. Normal women dont do this. Maybe ALOT of women do, but I see women that act like sane people and they date.

My room mate does ok, but his game is average and he only could approach a group if I go with him. Does everything pondus says not to do. gets laid

Yes, exactly, and why would you want to put a woman you cared for through this? It makes us feel insane and beyond rattled. I would MUCH PREFER the guy who cut the bullsh!t and let me know his interest level, so I could either sh!t or get off the pot. This whole game playing, waiting thing definitely doesn't work with my personality. It hurts the progression of things as opposed to nurturing them.Again, not true! If she really likes you, 'challenge' isn't a factor, YOU are the main focus. She simply wants you...idk why challenges and game playing need to be done when you're dealing with someone you immediately like?

Exactly. Learn to keep your cool and respond to them, not react to them. It's a fact of relationships that your resolve will constantly be challenged as a man.It does not apply only if he is putting on an act. Is there only one side to every human being? NO! There are many sides. If it you don't know how to balance them, this is what happens. Women accuse me of being a player because I am very smooth, calm, collected, always seem to know what to say, yet I am one of the most affectionate and compassionate men I know. I am loyal to a fault. I would never cheat on anyone. I am farthest from a player possible. If I move to one side or the other too far, guess what happens?

So you think you are just mindlessly being the perfect woman for him and he is mindlessly being the perfect man for you? There's a lot of thought going into all this and you know it. It's not game, it's a biological reality.

Games = manipulation. No one sets out to manipulate anyone. Knowing how to recognize how your actions affect a woman and how to pass her **** tests is not a game. It's understanding how a woman's mind works. To me, that in itself, is a token of endearment. I wish women took the time to really get to know how men tick. They would understand me whole lot better, that's for sure.

You can still be the nice guy and respond to her texts, but when you respond, you better damn well be pushing her emotional buttons. BALANCE IT.

Just like women play no games when they string a guy along?

Look, I know what it feels like to play games. To not feel safe enough with a man to let my guard down and be myself.

The main reason I like my guy so much is because right from the start, we were ourselves. No pretenses, no BS.
He's the first guy in YEARS that enabled me to not worry about the insecurity and craziness that comes with game playing. It means so much to me.
Ok, I agree with your point about 'sh!t tests' but those live on a spectrum. Some women mask them in massive soap opera set ups; others just integrate them in their daily lives and see if the guy fits in. Not sure the two can even be compared as 'sh!t tests', because the former is undeniably one, but the latter is simply getting to know someone.
ok, so how do we do that? what do we look for and watch out for?

Wow, I go to lunch for an hour and there's an entire page to catch up on. Nice.

I'm not going to go back and quote, etc. but psycho, stop being so defensive. I never once made a statement about how I view you or anything like that. I'm simply giving you my point of view on things given the situation I've been handed. If you don't like it, then don't ask me for advice or PM me. It's that simple. However, I never once called you specifically needy or desperate or anything like that, so don't put words in my mouth. I said one of your specific actions could have been viewed as needy, and that's all. We're all brahs here.

Daisy, you need to realize that the way you speak openly and handle yourself is way, way different than most American women. It is the American woman's modus operandi to say one thing and do the complete polar opposite. Your experience with your new guy is completely rare and not typical of a regular interaction when you meet a new female as a Western man. That's why this all sounds so foreign to you.

Just have fun with it bro. She is doing this to take all the power as she may suspect you are a leader/wants control/wants you to chase her. Play the game right back and just take her less seriously. If you connect well on the dates, this should stop. You just make sure you are also delaying texts, this is also one way to get it to stop.Super intimate eh Dais? It ain't exactly that special when she let him stuff her on first date if you ask me. I can see your point if it was after a few dates.

See how Daisy would be rattled though brahs? Rattled also = thinking about you all day and why you haven't messaged. Feeling insecure, questioning yourself? Yes, perfect, exactly what I'm looking for lol. If you had any interest in a guy like this, you would really step it up the next time you see him as you THINK he may not be as interested as you are and you want to win him over. Or you would reach out first because you are dying to hear from him/know if he is interested or if he will respond.

Daisy will now deny all this guys, but I can assure you this would work on many, many women (has for me) perhaps even phD alpha female Daisy herself and she just doesn't even know it (if she was interested). She knows all our tricks though, this is also partly why she has this position

well super intimate to me means sex. however many dates applies to the couple in question...not tryna judge anyone
yes, you are right...but i don't LIKE to feel that way. i like knowing where i stand with someone, and that they like and appreciate me. i don't like being around someone who i have to prove myself to...it's not a very comfortable feeling. i honestly would say, if you find the right person, you can discard all this BS and just have fun being free and being authentically you. the less you have to think about how to act around someone, the better.
Ahh you are spot on with this. LMAO I'm responding ITT being like,what is thisss??? i don't understand...but you pretty much summed it up. Enough said!