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Forum » History books always lump Middle East and African civilizations as part of "western"
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Thread: History books always lump Middle East and African civilizations as part of "western"

post 1611071351 07-19-2020, 02:50 PM
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History books always lump Middle East and African civilizations as part of "western"

Civilization.

Is this like some old weird nationalistically motivated historian standards that have yet to be abolished.

Civilization started in the middle east and Egypt is in Africa, same for Kush and Carthage.

It's insane how extremely poorly framed early history books and classes are in the USA. It's extremely biased from a framing perspective. Up until Roman empire then they start to divide up by geography closer to what we see now.

It's no wonder that so many Americans want to pretend the rest of the world outside us, Canada and UK don't exist.

Pick up any world history book, outside of Wikipedia and a few newer ones they don't even want to say Egypt was in Africa lmao or that the first civilization in history was in Syria.

I wonder how other countries teach history. Do Nigerians grow up thinking they were Egyptians and do people from Morocco think they started off as Arabic speaking semites.

Intredashing stuff tbh
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post 1611071471 07-19-2020, 02:52 PM
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No they don't.
post 1611071941 07-19-2020, 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted By Polaris⏩
No they don't.
Very few books originally published before 2005ish start western civilization with the Pelasgians in Greece, as they should. They instead try to encompass early west history as "The Mediterranean"
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post 1611072051 07-19-2020, 03:01 PM
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who hurt you?
post 1611072181 07-19-2020, 03:04 PM
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Dont recall this at all.

World history covered egypt, middle east, greece, and a little bit of china up through the roman empire.

Western civ covered fall of rome up to mid 1900s focused on european nations

Us history then was obviously 1600s to about 1960 in the US

At least that was my experience in high school
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post 1611072361 07-19-2020, 03:06 PM
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I mean its obvious why they did it back in the day, they didn't want to empower Black Americans by making it evident that the greatest civilization of the Ancient World was in Africa. They instead tried to beat around the bush by saying it was part of western civilization or a "Mediterranean civilization"

Now its just another stupid standard that's alive from its own inertia that's slowly dying out. Like circumcision.

Don't even want to read the dogmatic lies that they were probably teaching kids in the 1950-70s
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post 1611072441 07-19-2020, 03:06 PM
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Originally Posted By Polaris⏩
No they don't.
This.

Lol at Opie. Why do you think there is the distinction in the names...."Western" and "Middle East"?

It doesn't matter where they start, the fact is history isn't one era and then another. It blends together and mixes b/w civilization.
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post 1611072791 07-19-2020, 03:12 PM
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Well if you want to be pedantic about it, the oldest known evidence of civilization to date is from Gloebki Tepi which is from Turkey. Is Turkey part of eastern civilization (IE India, China, etc ? ) You effing idiot.
And Carthage was created by the Phenocians which were a people originally from Syria/Lebanon so they are not african(black) either. And lets not forget that the reason why the bronze age even happened was because of the trade that went on between northern Europe and the middle east. Since most of the tin necessary for the bronze age came from western Europe, there was already heavy trading going on between Europe and the middle east during the earliest civilizations. And Egyptians were not black, there are tons of genetic evidence backing this.
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post 1611073341 07-19-2020, 03:19 PM
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Originally Posted By oreogasm⏩
Well if you want to be pedantic about it, the oldest known evidence of civilization to date is from Gloebki Tepi which is from Turkey. Is Turkey part of eastern civilization (IE India, China, etc ? ) You effing idiot.
And Carthage was created by the Phenocians which were a people originally from Syria/Lebanon so they are not african(black) either. And lets not forget that the reason why the bronze age even happened was because of the trade that went on between northern Europe and the middle east. Since most of the tin necessary for the bronze age came from western Europe, there was already heavy trading going on between Europe and the middle east during the earliest civilizations. And Egyptians were not black, there are tons of genetic evidence backing this.
They are arbitrary terms, thanks for proving my point dumb ass. Also you're talking prehistory i.e. before there was writing so doesn't belong in this thread either

Who said anything about them being black? Phenotypes change our genetics weren't anything like they are today

There's nothing linking the modern definition of Western civilization with Ancient Syria, not linguistically, geographically, culturally or even genetically. So there's no point in starting it there.

If you go on Wikipedia they aptly start western civ in Greece as that's where the term arose and the heritage of its culture was birthed.
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post 1611073831 07-19-2020, 03:25 PM
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Originally Posted By TinderGame⏩
They are arbitrary terms, thanks for proving my point dumb ass. Also you're talking prehistory i.e. before there was writing so doesn't belong in this thread either

Who said anything about them being black? Phenotypes change our genetics weren't anything like they are today

There's nothing linking the modern definition of Western civilization with Ancient Syria, not linguistically, geographically, culturally or even genetically. So there's no point in starting it there.

If you go on Wikipedia they aptly start western civ in Greece as that's where the term arose and the heritage of its culture was birthed.
So much ignorance in this reply but that is expected from a red post. You must be trolling
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post 1611074171 07-19-2020, 03:29 PM
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World history, usually starts is Mesopotamia, and then Egypt too, since those were the first civilizations then goes on to the Greeks etc. Combine that with the history of Christianity and Judaism from Israel, it makes since why they cover it.
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post 1611074261 07-19-2020, 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted By TinderGame⏩
I mean its obvious why they did it back in the day, they didn't want to empower Black Americans by making it evident that the greatest civilization of the Ancient World was in Africa. They instead tried to beat around the bush by saying it was part of western civilization or a "Mediterranean civilization"

Now its just another stupid standard that's alive from its own inertia that's slowly dying out. Like circumcision.

Don't even want to read the dogmatic lies that they were probably teaching kids in the 1950-70s
Wait, so what your saying is. Once the secret is out, once we let black Americans know that the greatest civilization in the ancient world was African. There is no longer any holding them back? They are going to just suddenly get their schit together and become a great force of success and wealth?


Well damn man, lets let them know so we don't have to hear anymore whining about racism and slavery. Who'd have thought the solution to the problems facing black communities in America was just letting them know that thousands of years ago African's accomplished great things.
post 1611074321 07-19-2020, 03:31 PM
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Originally Posted By oreogasm⏩
So much ignorance in this reply but that is expected from a red post. You must be trolling
Yeah because you have no argument, I can post a wikpedia article with source to back up everything i wrote

Call me a troll when your stupid gotcha argument crumbles under my verbal aggression
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post 1611074461 07-19-2020, 03:32 PM
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No offense bro but I literally do not care a single bit about any of those ancient civilizations
post 1611074561 07-19-2020, 03:34 PM
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lmao just lmao if u havent lived in both (srs)
post 1611074571 07-19-2020, 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted By guest89⏩
Wait, so what your saying is. Once the secret is out, once we let black Americans know that the greatest civilization in the ancient world was African. There is no longer any holding them back? They are going to just suddenly get their schit together and become a great force of success and wealth?


Well damn man, lets let them know so we don't have to hear anymore whining about racism and slavery. Who'd have thought the solution to the problems facing black communities in America was just letting them know that thousands of years ago African's accomplished great things.
No I didn't say that, obviously Egyptians were not what we call Black, very different genes with only around 12-18% at most in common.

Just that history like everything we get taught, can and will be filtered through a lens to give cultural empowerment or to justify whatever the higher ups want people believe. You can technically teach something "true" but frame in such an awful misleading way that its completely biased

Early History deliberately pushed the message the Greeks and Egyptians were like cousins lmao even though we knew they weren't since like 1400 ad.
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post 1611074711 07-19-2020, 03:36 PM
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Until fairly recently, “west” meant something very different then what it means today. It described everything west of India.

The classical west was actually northern India through the eastern Mediterranean. This was during antiquity and up until the middle Middle Ages.

Based on that, the history books kept almost all of the ancient west with the contemporary west. The notion of there being a “west” and “East” itself didn’t start until the later modern era.
post 1611074871 07-19-2020, 03:39 PM
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They literally don't
post 1611075181 07-19-2020, 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted By DDSF1⏩
Until fairly recently, “west” meant something very different then what it means today. It described everything west of India.

The classical west was actually northern India through the eastern Mediterranean. This was during antiquity and up until the middle Middle Ages.

Based on that, the history books kept almost all of the ancient west with the contemporary west. The notion of there being a “west” and “East” itself didn’t start until the later modern era.
Pretty sure it began in Greece vs Persia, and later the Romans appropriated the Greek teaching/culture and framed themselves both as "western"

Latter it was redesigned after the split of Catholicism, which is now synonymous with western europe and those cultures of its diaspora
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post 1611075201 07-19-2020, 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted By TinderGame⏩
No I didn't say that, obviously Egyptians were not what we call Black, very different genes with only around 12-18% at most in common.

Just that history like everything we get taught, can and will be filtered through a lens to give cultural empowerment or to justify whatever the higher ups want people believe. You can technically teach something "true" but frame in such an awful misleading way that its completely biased

Early History deliberately pushed the message the Greeks and Egyptians were like cousins lmao even though we knew they weren't since like 1400 ad.
I've been reading history books for over 20 years and I have never heard that Greeks and Egyptians were cousins. Please list a source. Are you referring to the Ptolemy dynasty, after the Greeks invaded Egypt and started to colonize it and rule over it?
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post 1611075451 07-19-2020, 03:47 PM
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Originally Posted By TinderGame⏩
Pretty sure it began in Greece vs Persia, and later the Romans appropriated the Greek teaching/culture and framed themselves both as "western"

Latter it was redesigned after the split of Catholicism, which is now synonymous with western europe and those cultures of its diaspora
No. Lol. That is incorrect.

That is projecting back modern ideas and identities.

History books called Islam a western religion, for example, until fairly recently. Because in the classical understanding it was a western religion.

The Catholic-Orthodox schism traditionally only refers to an eastern versus western in the “west.” But, again, things have changed drastically over the last two decades and many terms and identities are being changed.
post 1611075871 07-19-2020, 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted By DDSF1⏩
No. Lol. That is incorrect.

That is projecting back modern ideas and identities.

History books called Islam a western religion, for example, until fairly recently. Because in the classical understanding it was a western religion.

The Catholic-Orthodox schism traditionally only refers to an eastern versus western in the “west.” But, again, things have changed drastically over the last two decades and many terms and identities are being changed.
Pretty sure Greece coined the term so are rightfully seen as the father's of western civilization
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post 1611076061 07-19-2020, 03:59 PM
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Egyptians arent black. Most Egyptians look middle eastern & have a type of bronze skin color. North Africas arent black either
post 1611076301 07-19-2020, 04:01 PM
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Originally Posted By ipunchurgirl⏩
Egyptians arent black. Most Egyptians look middle eastern & have a type of bronze skin color. North Africas arent black either
Who said they were?

They're African though, and that was the framing they always avoid in the history books lol. Also North African and middle eastern semites are different

Kinda like how modern day Turkish people don't like to admit that they are originally ethnically Asian like the Kazakh people but raped enough Greeks to where they now look Eurabian
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