Thread: Free will is a myth
11-13-2023, 01:13 PM
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#1
- bhicks3712
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Free will is a myth
Fake
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11-13-2023, 01:18 PM
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#2
11-13-2023, 01:20 PM
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#3
- sgregor249
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Laplace's Demon
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laplace%27s_demon
but then again..quantum mechanics invalidates this
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laplace%27s_demon
but then again..quantum mechanics invalidates this
11-13-2023, 01:22 PM
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Yeah I don't believe
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11-13-2023, 01:23 PM
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#5
Originally Posted By sgregor249⏩
You don't even need quantum to invalidate it.Laplace's Demon
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laplace%27s_demon
but then again..quantum mechanics invalidates this
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laplace%27s_demon
but then again..quantum mechanics invalidates this
And free will is also out the window unless we concede that electrons have free will, which is bullchit.
11-13-2023, 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted By brooootal⏩
how is it refuted classically?You don't even need quantum to invalidate it.
And free will is also out the window unless we concede that electrons have free will, which is bullchit.
And free will is also out the window unless we concede that electrons have free will, which is bullchit.
11-13-2023, 01:25 PM
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#7
11-13-2023, 01:27 PM
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#8
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Originally Posted By Ratfish⏩
I mean I agree with op. I bare no personal responsibility for my drinking.we should
then it's not our fault we're drunks
then it's not our fault we're drunks
Beer is my brush and the road is my canvas
11-13-2023, 01:29 PM
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#9
- TappingTheZen
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Originally Posted By sgregor249⏩
It only shows we can't predict with certainty the future, but that the universe does still evolve by laws (i.e the wavefunction, probabilistic rather than absoloute). However, some quantum mechanical interpretations do actually save determinism , like the many-worlds theorem. The 'ignorance' in the quantum mechanical result comes from your ignorance of what branch of the wavefunction you're in, in this interpretation. So depending on your interpretation there's an epistemological choice to make regarding whether our lack of ability to predict the future with certainty (only probabilistically) is an ontological feature of the universe, or simply a product of our ignorance (due to a limited perspective of the universe).Laplace's Demon
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laplace%27s_demon
but then again..quantum mechanics invalidates this
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laplace%27s_demon
but then again..quantum mechanics invalidates this
Either way though, it doesn't save free will, the evolution of the universe is still described mathematically.
I think free will is a tricky concept and people often don't really know what they mean by it, and it gets into philosophical debates about responsibility etc. We probably have to detach it from physics, because the idea of 'metaphysical free will' in a universe who's evolution is governed by laws doesn't seem compatible, or beyond what we can comprehend (i.e not compatible with our abstract method of doing science, or our usual conception of cause:effect); or we can look at it as some sort of emergent concept based on our ignorance (although this wouldn't be 'true free will'). We should probably act like we have free will, regardless.
11-13-2023, 01:31 PM
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#10
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We can easily explain this with the classic "2D vs 4D" model.
If we draw a line on a paper and give it squiggles and loops and such, and we call that line the lifespan of Mr. 2D, a 2dimensional being. The line represents all of the choices and decisions of Mr. 2Ds life.
Mr. 2D must travel along the line in a slow and linear fashion, moving 1 inch per minute. He can not observe or experience anything beyond 1inch ahead of himself.
We, as 3D beings can see his past and future. One might suggest that Mr.2D has no free will, as he is stuck upon the line.
However, more accurately, Mr. 2D has "already" made his choices, and is now experiencing them. Granted, we ourselves did create the line in order to formulate this model, but for the sake of understanding, believe that Mr.2D was in fact responsible for the creation of this line.
Similarly. A 4 dimensional being that is able to step outward of our tineline will look at your entire life from conception to death. He'll point at the line of your life and suggest you have no free will, as you are slave to your life-line. More correctly, though, the life of your line was/is/will be under your control, it simply was "already" decided by you in the future.
You have free will, it's just that it already happened, and you are now observing your decisions from a fixed point of which you do not have the will to control.
The only time we don't have free will, would be if Mr.4D looked at your line, saw where it's headed in relation to your current observational point of view, and changed something in your line with his own hands.
Similarly, if we grabbed and erasure and created a new path for mr.2D, suddenly his free will become compromised.
If we draw a line on a paper and give it squiggles and loops and such, and we call that line the lifespan of Mr. 2D, a 2dimensional being. The line represents all of the choices and decisions of Mr. 2Ds life.
Mr. 2D must travel along the line in a slow and linear fashion, moving 1 inch per minute. He can not observe or experience anything beyond 1inch ahead of himself.
We, as 3D beings can see his past and future. One might suggest that Mr.2D has no free will, as he is stuck upon the line.
However, more accurately, Mr. 2D has "already" made his choices, and is now experiencing them. Granted, we ourselves did create the line in order to formulate this model, but for the sake of understanding, believe that Mr.2D was in fact responsible for the creation of this line.
Similarly. A 4 dimensional being that is able to step outward of our tineline will look at your entire life from conception to death. He'll point at the line of your life and suggest you have no free will, as you are slave to your life-line. More correctly, though, the life of your line was/is/will be under your control, it simply was "already" decided by you in the future.
You have free will, it's just that it already happened, and you are now observing your decisions from a fixed point of which you do not have the will to control.
The only time we don't have free will, would be if Mr.4D looked at your line, saw where it's headed in relation to your current observational point of view, and changed something in your line with his own hands.
Similarly, if we grabbed and erasure and created a new path for mr.2D, suddenly his free will become compromised.
11-13-2023, 01:32 PM
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#11
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How does genetics figure into all this? Because i get my drink on from my dad's part of the family. I bear no responsibility into my drinking habit
See monster0ultra's sig
11-13-2023, 01:36 PM
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#12
11-13-2023, 01:36 PM
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#13
11-13-2023, 01:36 PM
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#14
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Originally Posted By sgregor249⏩
Not really. That just means we dont really understand how quantum mechanics works nor can we predict them.Laplace's Demon
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laplace%27s_demon
but then again..quantum mechanics invalidates this
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laplace%27s_demon
but then again..quantum mechanics invalidates this
"The flowers bloom, then wither... The stars shine and one day become extinct. This earth, the sun, the galaxies and even the big universe, someday will be destroyed. Compared with that, the human life is only a blink, just a little time. In that short time - people are born, laugh, cry, fight, are injured, feel joy, sadness, hate someone, love someone. All in just a moment. And then, are embraced by the eternal sleep called death."
11-13-2023, 01:42 PM
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#15
Originally Posted By Ken-O⏩
Most physicists largely accept that quantum mechanics is not deterministic. You can look at Bell's Theorem and how Bell's Inequalities are violated to realize that at the very least, local hidden variables do not exist. In other words, it isn't a failure of our measurement. There seems to be truly some randomness built into the universe.Not really. That just means we dont really understand how quantum mechanics works nor can we predict them.
11-13-2023, 01:48 PM
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#16
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Originally Posted By resoog⏩
God makes all the pathsi think fate and free will are happening at the same time, but i also think the future can change if we pray to the creator
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11-13-2023, 01:51 PM
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#17
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Originally Posted By brooootal⏩
Or maybe these events that seem random, are triggered by something determined, but we just havent figured it out.Most physicists largely accept that quantum mechanics is not deterministic. You can look at Bell's Theorem and how Bell's Inequalities are violated to realize that at the very least, local hidden variables do not exist. In other words, it isn't a failure of our measurement. There seems to be truly some randomness built into the universe.
Who knows tho, quantum mechanics is a mindblowing subject, its been a while since i read about it. Not sure i want to go down the rabbit hole again and try to understand this **** better lol.
"The flowers bloom, then wither... The stars shine and one day become extinct. This earth, the sun, the galaxies and even the big universe, someday will be destroyed. Compared with that, the human life is only a blink, just a little time. In that short time - people are born, laugh, cry, fight, are injured, feel joy, sadness, hate someone, love someone. All in just a moment. And then, are embraced by the eternal sleep called death."
11-13-2023, 01:53 PM
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#18
- TappingTheZen
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Originally Posted By Ken-O⏩
Whilst this could be right, bells inequality proves that at the very least we have to lose locality, 'global variables' aren't ruled out but local ones are.Or maybe these events that seem random, are triggered by something determined, but we just havent figured it out.
Who knows tho, quantum mechanics is a mindblowing subject, its been a while since i read about it. Not sure i want to go down the rabbit hole again and try to understand this **** better lol.
Who knows tho, quantum mechanics is a mindblowing subject, its been a while since i read about it. Not sure i want to go down the rabbit hole again and try to understand this **** better lol.
11-13-2023, 02:00 PM
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#19
Originally Posted By TappingTheZen⏩
Nice post.It only shows we can't predict with certainty the future, but that the universe does still evolve by laws (i.e the wavefunction, probabilistic rather than absoloute). However, some quantum mechanical interpretations do actually save determinism , like the many-worlds theorem. The 'ignorance' in the quantum mechanical result comes from your ignorance of what branch of the wavefunction you're in, in this interpretation.So depending on your interpretation there's an epistemological choice to make regarding whether our lack of ability to predict the future with certainty (only probabilistically) is an ontological feature of the universe, or simply a product of our ignorance (due to a limited perspective of the universe).
Either way though, it doesn't save free will, the evolution of the universe is still described mathematically.
I think free will is a tricky concept and people often don't really know what they mean by it, and it gets into philosophical debates about responsibility etc. We probably have to detach it from physics, because the idea of 'metaphysical free will' in a universe who's evolution is governed by laws doesn't seem compatible, or beyond what we can comprehend (i.e not compatible with our abstract method of doing science, or our usual conception of cause:effect); or we can look at it as some sort of emergent concept based on our ignorance (although this wouldn't be 'true free will'). We should probably act like we have free will, regardless.
Either way though, it doesn't save free will, the evolution of the universe is still described mathematically.
I think free will is a tricky concept and people often don't really know what they mean by it, and it gets into philosophical debates about responsibility etc. We probably have to detach it from physics, because the idea of 'metaphysical free will' in a universe who's evolution is governed by laws doesn't seem compatible, or beyond what we can comprehend (i.e not compatible with our abstract method of doing science, or our usual conception of cause:effect); or we can look at it as some sort of emergent concept based on our ignorance (although this wouldn't be 'true free will'). We should probably act like we have free will, regardless.
Originally Posted By Condo41⏩
So the story of the ongoing timeline split is the ascendance by some part of humanity into higher dimensional awareness. And one facet of that is believed to be the end of the experience of time as we have known it thus far. I believe this change of state may be what was attempted to be demonstrated in the film Arrival.We can easily explain this with the classic "2D vs 4D" model.
If we draw a line on a paper and give it squiggles and loops and such, and we call that line the lifespan of Mr. 2D, a 2dimensional being. The line represents all of the choices and decisions of Mr. 2Ds life.
Mr. 2D must travel along the line in a slow and linear fashion, moving 1 inch per minute. He can not observe or experience anything beyond 1inch ahead of himself.
We, as 3D beings can see his past and future. One might suggest that Mr.2D has no free will, as he is stuck upon the line.
However, more accurately, Mr. 2D has "already" made his choices, and is now experiencing them. Granted, we ourselves did create the line in order to formulate this model, but for the sake of understanding, believe that Mr.2D was in fact responsible for the creation of this line.
Similarly. A 4 dimensional being that is able to step outward of our tineline will look at your entire life from conception to death. He'll point at the line of your life and suggest you have no free will, as you are slave to your life-line. More correctly, though, the life of your line was/is/will be under your control, it simply was "already" decided by you in the future.
You have free will, it's just that it already happened, and you are now observing your decisions from a fixed point of which you do not have the will to control.
The only time we don't have free will, would be if Mr.4D looked at your line, saw where it's headed in relation to your current observational point of view, and changed something in your line with his own hands.
Similarly, if we grabbed and erasure and created a new path for mr.2D, suddenly his free will become compromised.
If we draw a line on a paper and give it squiggles and loops and such, and we call that line the lifespan of Mr. 2D, a 2dimensional being. The line represents all of the choices and decisions of Mr. 2Ds life.
Mr. 2D must travel along the line in a slow and linear fashion, moving 1 inch per minute. He can not observe or experience anything beyond 1inch ahead of himself.
We, as 3D beings can see his past and future. One might suggest that Mr.2D has no free will, as he is stuck upon the line.
However, more accurately, Mr. 2D has "already" made his choices, and is now experiencing them. Granted, we ourselves did create the line in order to formulate this model, but for the sake of understanding, believe that Mr.2D was in fact responsible for the creation of this line.
Similarly. A 4 dimensional being that is able to step outward of our tineline will look at your entire life from conception to death. He'll point at the line of your life and suggest you have no free will, as you are slave to your life-line. More correctly, though, the life of your line was/is/will be under your control, it simply was "already" decided by you in the future.
You have free will, it's just that it already happened, and you are now observing your decisions from a fixed point of which you do not have the will to control.
The only time we don't have free will, would be if Mr.4D looked at your line, saw where it's headed in relation to your current observational point of view, and changed something in your line with his own hands.
Similarly, if we grabbed and erasure and created a new path for mr.2D, suddenly his free will become compromised.
Also Sapolsky has been doing a lot of interviews promoting his new book.
https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/83817782
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11-13-2023, 02:21 PM
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#20
11-13-2023, 02:57 PM
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#21
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Originally Posted By JeepBruh⏩
Yes of courseIf there is no free will then is everything we experience just part of the master plan?
Jesus gang ✝️
God Bless You
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11-13-2023, 03:08 PM
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#22
Originally Posted By TappingTheZen⏩
It only shows we can't predict with certainty the future, but that the universe does still evolve by laws (i.e the wavefunction, probabilistic rather than absoloute). However, some quantum mechanical interpretations do actually save determinism , like the many-worlds theorem. The 'ignorance' in the quantum mechanical result comes from your ignorance of what branch of the wavefunction you're in, in this interpretation. So depending on your interpretation there's an epistemological choice to make regarding whether our lack of ability to predict the future with certainty (only probabilistically) is an ontological feature of the universe, or simply a product of our ignorance (due to a limited perspective of the universe).
Either way though, it doesn't save free will, the evolution of the universe is still described mathematically.
I think free will is a tricky concept and people often don't really know what they mean by it, and it gets into philosophical debates about responsibility etc. We probably have to detach it from physics, because the idea of 'metaphysical free will' in a universe who's evolution is governed by laws doesn't seem compatible, or beyond what we can comprehend (i.e not compatible with our abstract method of doing science, or our usual conception of cause:effect); or we can look at it as some sort of emergent concept based on our ignorance (although this wouldn't be 'true free will'). We should probably act like we have free will, regardless.
Either way though, it doesn't save free will, the evolution of the universe is still described mathematically.
I think free will is a tricky concept and people often don't really know what they mean by it, and it gets into philosophical debates about responsibility etc. We probably have to detach it from physics, because the idea of 'metaphysical free will' in a universe who's evolution is governed by laws doesn't seem compatible, or beyond what we can comprehend (i.e not compatible with our abstract method of doing science, or our usual conception of cause:effect); or we can look at it as some sort of emergent concept based on our ignorance (although this wouldn't be 'true free will'). We should probably act like we have free will, regardless.
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11-13-2023, 03:09 PM
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#23
- Tanerian
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I remember my 20's too OP. They were good times. You read about **** and have ideas you think are unique and cool, or hear about things that "blow your mind". You start getting into philosophy and ****, and think you understand things.
We've all been there.
Then you grow up and realize now one gives a **** about this kind of **** but young people.
Free Will is a myth?
Who the **** cares. Live your life.
We've all been there.
Then you grow up and realize now one gives a **** about this kind of **** but young people.
Free Will is a myth?
Who the **** cares. Live your life.
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Fukin mall cop neg police of piss
11-13-2023, 03:23 PM
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#24
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We are spiritual beings. There is the physical world but there is also a spiritual world which contains your soul. Mind over matter. We are created in the image of God with a body, soul and spirit. Physics cannot explain the spiritual.
11-13-2023, 03:28 PM
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#25
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True but you aren’t able to actually perceive the lack of free will unless you’re depersonalized or enlightened, so it doesn’t make a difference just gotta live your life
11-13-2023, 03:32 PM
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#26
- bhicks3712
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Originally Posted By Tanerian⏩
Didn’t read anything or would I read anything just like I didn’t read but a couple ppls post itt. Was ganna cuss you but seen go cowboys so go cowboys. Never even heard of philosophy and don’t care to. Jesus is life. Good luckI remember my 20's too OP. They were good times. You read about **** and have ideas you think are unique and cool, or hear about things that "blow your mind". You start getting into philosophy and ****, and think you understand things.
We've all been there.
Then you grow up and realize now one gives a **** about this kind of **** but young people.
Free Will is a myth?
Who the **** cares. Live your life.
We've all been there.
Then you grow up and realize now one gives a **** about this kind of **** but young people.
Free Will is a myth?
Who the **** cares. Live your life.
Jesus gang ✝️
God Bless You
( ͡ᵔ ͜ʖ ͡ᵔ
11-13-2023, 03:34 PM
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#27
11-13-2023, 04:12 PM
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#28
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Originally Posted By QuickOne⏩
You are Wincel larping as a women. You are sad. Sad. Sad. Sad. Srs rep trading with your other wincels accounts.I do whatever the fuk i wanna do. Others do what they can
Idgaf about anybodys will
Idgaf about anybodys will
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11-13-2023, 04:14 PM
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#29
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There are studies to support that idea.
“The stories and information posted here are artistic works of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact.“
PS: Don't eat poop, just don't let the idea of it stop you from living life to its fullest.
11-13-2023, 04:20 PM
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#30
Yes, let’s all wallow in existential nihilism because it has done so much good for the world.
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