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Forum » Misc Firearms Crew LXIX: The Revolution Will Not Be Televised
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Thread: Misc Firearms Crew LXIX: The Revolution Will Not Be Televised

post 1524241291 10-29-2017, 02:11 PM
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#391
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Originally Posted By Rajeev762x39⏩
Recommendations for a 30mm scope mount for an AR picatinny rail? (Tall enough to clear a rear MBUS)

eta 1-piece mount
Spuhr
Misc Firearms Crew

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post 1524247661 10-29-2017, 03:25 PM
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#392
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Originally Posted By Sp3cialK⏩
Nope. You know better than that.
I dunno man, California has beaches, mountains, lakes, rivers, you can ride a motorcycle pretty much year round in most of the state. If we're saying "this place would be great if it weren't for the ****ty politics and laws", California is top three on my list.
RIP YGST
post 1524250311 10-29-2017, 03:51 PM
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#393
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Originally Posted By Ikeman83⏩
ADM Recon-X if you want QD, Aero Ultralight SPR if not
Vertically split rings (ie ADM mounts) can screw up erector assemblies and are generally not recommended by people in the know.
post 1524250981 10-29-2017, 04:00 PM
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#394
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Originally Posted By Aaron47pb⏩
Vertically split rings (ie ADM mounts) can screw up erector assemblies and are generally not recommended by people in the know.
Tighten to spec.
Florida Crew as of 3/21

What part of "Shall Not Be Infringed" are you having trouble with?

Misc Firearms Crew
post 1524251281 10-29-2017, 04:02 PM
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#395
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Man . . . what an absolutely glorious day today, weather-wise. Did some more yard work, cleaned the gutters and straightened up the garage a bit.

Of course, it's supposed to start snowing later tonight and be crappy tomorrow. But das life in CO in the fall.
*MFC Elder Statesmen Cabinet Crew*

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**Extreme Dips Crew** - http://forum.obnoxiousbrutes.com/showthread.php?t=136113651
post 1524252471 10-29-2017, 04:13 PM
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#396
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Originally Posted By NickDigger⏩
I dunno man, California has beaches, mountains, lakes, rivers, you can ride a motorcycle pretty much year round in most of the state. If we're saying "this place would be great if it weren't for the ****ty politics and laws", California is top three on my list.
Yes. If only
post 1524256621 10-29-2017, 04:50 PM
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#397
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Originally Posted By Ikeman83⏩
Tighten to spec.
Think it has more to do with scope design. The erector assemblies get pressure from the sides on a vertically split ring. It causes binding issues, which are not present on horizontally split rings.
Misc Firearms Crew

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post 1524256731 10-29-2017, 04:51 PM
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#398
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Originally Posted By Aaron47pb⏩
Vertically split rings (ie ADM mounts) can screw up erector assemblies and are generally not recommended by people in the know.
I'm going to expound on this because the guy I was backseating took 5 phone calls on this subject the first two days I was there.

Regardless of the ring geometry, if you tighten your rings beyond spec, you can introduce adjustment issues to your windage/elevation adjustments (and even affect group size) by overtightening your rings and squeezing your main tube.

Swarovski has a particular issue with this because there's very little "slop" between the tube wall and the erector system.
Florida Crew as of 3/21

What part of "Shall Not Be Infringed" are you having trouble with?

Misc Firearms Crew
post 1524257561 10-29-2017, 04:58 PM
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#399
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Originally Posted By Sp3cialK⏩
Think it has more to do with scope design. The erector assemblies get pressure from the sides on a vertically split ring. It causes binding issues, which are not present on horizontally split rings.
Which is why tightening to spec is so important. Overtightening results in compression of the tube, impacting your erector assembly regardless of whether it's being compressed from above or the side.

Binding, restriction of ROA, and wandering zero can all come from a crushed tube.

I think I heard the phrase "inch-lbs torque wrench" 30 times in the last week.

Tighten to spec.
Florida Crew as of 3/21

What part of "Shall Not Be Infringed" are you having trouble with?

Misc Firearms Crew
post 1524258541 10-29-2017, 05:08 PM
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#400
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Originally Posted By Ikeman83⏩
Which is why tightening to spec is so important. Overtightening results in compression of the tube, impacting your erector assembly regardless of whether it's being compressed from above or the side.

Binding, restriction of ROA, and wandering zero can all come from a crushed tube.

I think I heard the phrase "inch-lbs torque wrench" 30 times in the last week.

Tighten to spec.
But which spec? What is the scope tube spec? Ring spec can vary from 15-65 in/lb
Misc Firearms Crew

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post 1524258881 10-29-2017, 05:10 PM
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#401
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Lol
Baltimore Orioles
Most positive poster in this thread.


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post 1524260451 10-29-2017, 05:23 PM
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#402
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Originally Posted By Sp3cialK⏩
But which spec? What is the scope tube spec? Ring spec can vary from 15-65 in/lb
Rings would determine the constriction on the tube. I always go ring spec, and I use blue loctite on threads when shooting anything with forward recoil like spring air rifles, or bows.
post 1524260791 10-29-2017, 05:25 PM
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#403
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Originally Posted By Sp3cialK⏩
But which spec? Ring spec can vary from 15-65 in/lb
Each ring only has one spec, which is the manufacturer's spec for that ring, which is the level of torque that will constrict the ring to the appropriate diameter to hold a scope of a given diameter. This is why having an inch-lbs torque wrench is so important. Apparently lots of people use the "finger tight method" for all of their scopes, which is fine on cheap garbage, which generally has more slop in the tube, but potentially disastrous for scopes that maximize elevation adjustment in the tube (or lens size for clarity, like Swaro) if the rings take a really fine torque setting.

Badger Ordnance rings are only spec'd for 12 in-lbs for example, so it's really easy to overtighten those:http://www.badgerordnance.com/media/...-and-bases.pdf
Florida Crew as of 3/21

What part of "Shall Not Be Infringed" are you having trouble with?

Misc Firearms Crew
post 1524261051 10-29-2017, 05:27 PM
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#404
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Originally Posted By Plateauplower⏩
Rings would determine the constriction on the tube. I always go ring spec, and I use blue loctite on threads when shooting anything with forward recoil like spring air rifles, or bows.
Did you know wetting the threads changes the torque applied?
Misc Firearms Crew

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post 1524261421 10-29-2017, 05:30 PM
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#405
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Originally Posted By Ikeman83⏩
Each ring only has one spec, which is the manufacturer's spec for that ring, which is the level of torque that will constrict the ring to the appropriate diameter to hold a scope of a given diameter. This is why having an inch-lbs torque wrench is so important. Apparently lots of people use the "finger tight method" for all of their scopes, which is fine on cheap garbage, which generally has more slop in the tube, but potentially disastrous for scopes that maximize elevation adjustment in the tube (or lens size for clarity, like Swaro) if the rings take a really fine torque setting.

Badger Ordnance rings are only spec'd for 12 in-lbs for example, so it's really easy to overtighten those:http://www.badgerordnance.com/media/...-and-bases.pdf
Correct, but there are still variances. The hold from the rings cannot possibly be the same from one ring manufacturer to the next, even if torqued to their spec.
Misc Firearms Crew

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post 1524261501 10-29-2017, 05:31 PM
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#406
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someone talk me out of buying a stinky smithy wessen shield 2.0 for 419.99
6 scoops of xf up2.0 a day
post 1524261661 10-29-2017, 05:33 PM
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#407
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Originally Posted By Sp3cialK⏩
Correct, but there are still variances. The hold from the rings cannot possibly be the same from oneringmanufacturer to the next, even if torqued to their spec.
Each ring manufacturer has a given torque setting for each of their products. Did you intend for the bold to be "scope"?
Florida Crew as of 3/21

What part of "Shall Not Be Infringed" are you having trouble with?

Misc Firearms Crew
post 1524262211 10-29-2017, 05:38 PM
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#408
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Originally Posted By Ikeman83⏩
Each ring manufacturer has a given torque setting for each of their products. Did you intend for the bold to be "scope"?
No. One ring manufacturers "hold" from their torque, isn't necessarily "proper" just because it's their spec. Tightened to their spec or not, there is a lot of info online advocating against the use of vertical rings.

Nightforce, Badger, RRS, Seekins, etc. all make horizontal rings. That can't be coincidence. I'm not knocking ADM, but they make AR QD mounts. Nothing precision about them and certainly not something I would want expensive glass in.
Misc Firearms Crew

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post 1524263631 10-29-2017, 05:54 PM
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#409
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Originally Posted By Meatie⏩
someone talk me out of buying a stinky smithy wessen shield 2.0 for 419.99
Stick with glock, don't let the whispers of Smith Wesson sway you.
MFC
Fishing crew
post 1524265011 10-29-2017, 06:09 PM
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#410
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Originally Posted By Sp3cialK⏩
No. One ring manufacturers "hold" from their torque, isn't necessarily "proper" just because it's their spec. Tightened to their spec or not, there is a lot of info online advocating against the use of vertical rings.

Nightforce, Badger, RRS, Seekins, etc. all make horizontal rings. That can't be coincidence. I'm not knocking ADM, but they make AR QD mounts. Nothing precision about them and certainly not something I would want expensive glass in.
NF, Badger, Seekins, and even Vortex all make horizontal rings, but LaRue and ADM both use vert rings in their cantilever mounts. Why? Why does Aero use a vertical ring? Probably because they're putting the thinnest part of the ring assembly in the horizontal plane of the scope, rather than because they're cutting corners.

Considering the number of accomplished shooters who've spent absurd amounts of money on scopes, rifles, and mounting who still have issues, my suspicion is that the issues being read about on the internet are a result of guys who have mounted 100s of scopes "the same way" running into issues when they attempt to mount a precision optic without bothering to read the mfg's specs on the particular set of rings they're using.

BTW, the Spuhr you recommended tightens at 45 degrees, which compresses the tube both vertically and horizontally.
Florida Crew as of 3/21

What part of "Shall Not Be Infringed" are you having trouble with?

Misc Firearms Crew
post 1524265071 10-29-2017, 06:10 PM
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#411
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Originally Posted By Sp3cialK⏩
Did you know wetting the threads changes the torque applied?
Originally Posted By Sp3cialK⏩
Correct, but there are still variances. The hold from the rings cannot possibly be the same from one ring manufacturer to the next, even if torqued to their spec.
Ya, well you are correct in the technical physics, and potential ramifications; my real world experience suggests using the correct tools (inch lb torque device, a plumb bob, and a few good levels) will get the job done reliably.

There are actually a lot of good scopes, mounts and rings now made by the same companies in the Far East that make the expensive ones at the same specifications for cents on the dollar. Mostly because you don't get to have that sticker on your range box.

I'm pretty sure all of the glass comes from China, or is at least ground there. Most of the aluminum is done there too, at least the smelting. Enviro regs make it hard for any high heat work here on bigger capacities.
post 1524265611 10-29-2017, 06:16 PM
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#412
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Originally Posted By Ikeman83⏩
NF, Badger, Seekins, and even Vortex all make horizontal rings, but LaRue and ADM both use vert rings in their cantilever mounts. Why? Why does Aero use a vertical ring? Probably because they're putting the thinnest part of the ring assembly in the horizontal plane of the scope, rather than because they're cutting corners.

Considering the number of accomplished shooters who've spent absurd amounts of money on scopes, rifles, and mounting who still have issues, my suspicion is that the issues being read about on the internet are a result of guys who have mounted 100s of scopes "the same way" running into issues when they attempt to mount a precision optic without bothering to read the mfg's specs on the particular set of rings they're using.

BTW, the Spuhr you recommended tightens at 45 degrees, which compresses the tube both vertically and horizontally.
45 degree is best way. That's why I recommended it. Also being a smart-ass, as the mounts are $415



ADM, Larue, and Aero all make verticle rings. They are also companies that design products for AR's.

Precision companies (listed above in my other post) use horizontal. If no differences, why the split between the two types?
Misc Firearms Crew

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post 1524266611 10-29-2017, 06:26 PM
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#413
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Opened a can of worms with that one. Every set up is different, but it’s usually a combination of scope design, rings/mounts being out of spec, and being installed/torqued improperly.

People don’t have these issues with Spuhr mounts. Probably because they aren’t out of spec and they aren’t vertical.
post 1524266801 10-29-2017, 06:28 PM
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#414
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Originally Posted By Aaron47pb⏩
Opened a can of worms with that one. Every set up is different, but it’s usually a combination of scope design, rings/mounts being out of spec, and being installed/torqued improperly.

People don’t have these issues with Spuhr mounts. Probably because they aren’t out of spec and they aren’t vertical.
Spuhr mount is best mount.
Misc Firearms Crew

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post 1524267201 10-29-2017, 06:32 PM
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#415
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Originally Posted By Sp3cialK⏩
45 degree is best way. That's why I recommended it.



ADM, Larue, and Aero all make verticle rings. They are also companies that design products for AR's.

Precision companies (listed above in my other post) use horizontal. If no differences, why the split between the two types?
My suspicion would be that the driving factor is weight and ease of mounting. It's much easier to mount a horizontally split ring than a vertical one. On a 1-piece, a vertical mount allows you to mill out the greatest volume of material from the ring to reduce weight, or, in Aero's case, allows you to eliminate 4 hex bolts from your mount.

Horizontal rings are going to be easier to mount, and since they're generally not on 1-piece mounts, weight is less of a concern.
Florida Crew as of 3/21

What part of "Shall Not Be Infringed" are you having trouble with?

Misc Firearms Crew
post 1524267431 10-29-2017, 06:34 PM
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#416
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Originally Posted By Sp3cialK⏩
Spuhr mount is best mount.
unless you're mounting your scope to a base that's 1/100th of an inch off of alignment, in which case Burris signature rings are the best, and you get to tell your customer that their $400 Spuhr mount is worthless.
Florida Crew as of 3/21

What part of "Shall Not Be Infringed" are you having trouble with?

Misc Firearms Crew
post 1524267761 10-29-2017, 06:37 PM
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#417
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Originally Posted By Ikeman83⏩
unless you're mounting your scope to a base that's 1/100th of an inch off of alignment, in which case Burris signature rings are the best, and you get to tell your customer that their $400 Spuhr mount is worthless.
Burris signature? What do you think happens when you tq a scope into rings that are slightly off from each other? Got sum bad news.

Spuhr mount is goat mount.
Misc Firearms Crew

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post 1524268161 10-29-2017, 06:40 PM
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#418
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Originally Posted By Sp3cialK⏩
Burris signature?

Spuhr mount is goat mount.
Dead serious, these are the rings Swaro and Kahles recommend:https://www.burrisoptics.com/signature-rings

I'd never even heard of them.
Florida Crew as of 3/21

What part of "Shall Not Be Infringed" are you having trouble with?

Misc Firearms Crew
post 1524268421 10-29-2017, 06:43 PM
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#419
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Originally Posted By Ikeman83⏩
Dead serious, these are the rings Swaro and Kahles recommend:https://www.burrisoptics.com/signature-rings

I'd never even heard of them.
I use them on my .22, with a Nikon rimfire scope. Would never put a swaro/kahles in them.


The argument for scope bases being out of spec warrants a one-piece mount even more. Not an issue with custom actions, but a one piece mount is still nice for RTZ needs.
Misc Firearms Crew

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post 1524268881 10-29-2017, 06:49 PM
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#420
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Originally Posted By Sp3cialK⏩
I use them on my .22, with a Nikon rimfire scope. Would never put a swaro/kahles in them.
My experience with mounting options isn't as great as yours, since I've only ever used a Burris PEPR (did not like), my ADM Recon-X (which I've been very happy with on my Trijicon Accupoint 1-4) , and a set of Vortex Precision Matched rings. (which have been great for my Vortex)

I'm just telling you offhand that "Burris Signature" is the only set of rings getting discussed by our tech support guys.

I was really impressed with how light the Aero SPR Ultralight was, and hadn't heard anything negative about them, hence the recommendation.


EDIT: I also had an ADM Recon that was not an extended model that I hated because the eye relief was inadequate.
Florida Crew as of 3/21

What part of "Shall Not Be Infringed" are you having trouble with?

Misc Firearms Crew
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