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Universal Basic Income Explained Clearly
12-09-2017, 03:05 PM
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#61
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12-09-2017, 03:08 PM
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#62
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The negative income tax has little to do with UBI. Friedman proposed it as tax reform, he was always in favour of cutting taxes and he understood how welfare causes poverty and an underclass. The whole purpose of the negative income tax was that it incentivised work, it would have been harsh to try living off it.
12-09-2017, 03:09 PM
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#63
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Originally Posted By Gainzzz⏩
I know what you meant, you said the current welfare system hinders people, got it.The current welfare system hinders people is what Iobviouslymeant.
You then said UBI is "essentially the same" referring to the welfare system.
If it is "essentially the same" why would it not also hinder people? What differentiates in such a way as the current welfare system as to not hinder people? If you understand human nature then you would understand it will hinder people, it will rob them of their incentive, and it will create a population of dependants that are easy to control. It would be even worse than the current welfare system because it is even more welfare. What you're saying is literally like saying "oh you have lung cancer caused by smoking, how about you start doubling the amount you smoke everyday and that should clear it right up"
Originally Posted By Gainzzz⏩
It is a realistic solution, it is the solution that has been practiced for almost all of human existence. Welfare, feminism, communism, UBI, these are all new ideas most of which starting with Karl Marx. By you saying you are entitled to my money for your existence you are saying you are entitled to my labor that got me that money. If you are entitled to my labor that is to say I am your slave. The producers should not be the slaves of the incompetent and lazy. Give me ONE reason why it is a net benefit for society to support people that will not, cannot, or do not work. Without using an emotional argument such as for "compassion" ...just one benefit for society. Society would be much better off if the parasites were left to fail..Absolutely no welfare would obviously weed out the weak and incompetent over time but as I said,this is not a realistic solution and never will be.
12-09-2017, 03:10 PM
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#64
Originally Posted By thorpowers⏩
"All animals are equal but some are more equal than others."-Animal Farm by George OrwellExactly. These millennials are spoiled rotten. Want everything free, everything to be "equal". Trying to make unequal things equal causes the greatest inequality.
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12-09-2017, 03:24 PM
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#65
Originally Posted By thorpowers⏩
You're right, I worded it wrongly.I know what you meant, you said the current welfare system hinders people, got it.
You then said UBI is "essentially the same" referring to the welfare system.
If it is "essentially the same" why would it not also hinder people? What differentiates in such a way as the current welfare system as to not hinder people? If you understand human nature then you would understand it will hinder people, it will rob them of their incentive, and it will create a population of dependants that are easy to control. It would be even worse than the current welfare system because it is even more welfare. What you're saying is literally like saying "oh you have lung cancer caused by smoking, how about you start doubling the amount you smoke everyday and that should clear it right up"
It is a realistic solution, it is the solution that has been practiced for almost all of human existence. Welfare, feminism, communism, UBI, these are all new ideas most of which starting with Karl Marx. By you saying you are entitled to my money for your existence you are saying you are entitled to my labor that got me that money. If you are entitled to my labor that is to say I am your slave. The producers should not be the slaves of the incompetent and lazy. Give me ONE reason why it is a net benefit for society to support people that will not, cannot, or do not work. Without using an emotional argument such as for "compassion" ...just one benefit for society. Society would be much better off if the parasites were left to fail.
You then said UBI is "essentially the same" referring to the welfare system.
If it is "essentially the same" why would it not also hinder people? What differentiates in such a way as the current welfare system as to not hinder people? If you understand human nature then you would understand it will hinder people, it will rob them of their incentive, and it will create a population of dependants that are easy to control. It would be even worse than the current welfare system because it is even more welfare. What you're saying is literally like saying "oh you have lung cancer caused by smoking, how about you start doubling the amount you smoke everyday and that should clear it right up"
It is a realistic solution, it is the solution that has been practiced for almost all of human existence. Welfare, feminism, communism, UBI, these are all new ideas most of which starting with Karl Marx. By you saying you are entitled to my money for your existence you are saying you are entitled to my labor that got me that money. If you are entitled to my labor that is to say I am your slave. The producers should not be the slaves of the incompetent and lazy. Give me ONE reason why it is a net benefit for society to support people that will not, cannot, or do not work. Without using an emotional argument such as for "compassion" ...just one benefit for society. Society would be much better off if the parasites were left to fail.
I meant that UBI would replace the current welfare system and remove all the bullchit bureaucracy that goes with it. The current system forces people to stay on welfare because getting a job is simply not even worth it. They would be worse off. With UBI, that money is guaranteed which allows them to work if they want to live a better life. They could choose to live in poverty on $1,000 per month or get a job and live fairly comfortably, even a low paid job. I would be for removing the minimum wage as well.
There are always going to be bottom-feeders of a society. I truly do not believe just letting them die off is a realistic solution. Anyone pushing those ideas would never get elected at any level.
This is what I meant when comparing you to SJWs, they constantly push unrealistic ideas, and that's what you're doing. It's easy to come up with ideas that would work in theory.
You don't think compassion is beneficial to a society? There is a lot more to building a decent society than the economy.
12-09-2017, 03:28 PM
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#66
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a) keep our current welfare state where productive ppl get $0 per year
b) have a UBI, get rid of welfare, and everyone gets $12k per year (rich and poor alike)
miscers choose (a) and keep $0. just lol, classic
$12k per year isnt much but its better than nothing and at least i get some of it instead of just giving it to everyone else
b) have a UBI, get rid of welfare, and everyone gets $12k per year (rich and poor alike)
miscers choose (a) and keep $0. just lol, classic
$12k per year isnt much but its better than nothing and at least i get some of it instead of just giving it to everyone else
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12-09-2017, 03:36 PM
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#67
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Originally Posted By RightKindaGuy⏩
What makes you think they would get rid of the welfare programs? Also, is the $1,000/month given to everyone regardless of age or only people 18 and older. If it’s given to everyone you basically incentivize reproduction and people who have no business raising children would be popping them out as fast as they could. If they don’t get it, then how do you expect the single mother raising four kids to live off of $12,000/year? Those questions take all of about 0.2 seconds to come up with. You can rest assured the government would make it a billion times more convoluted than that.a) keep our current welfare state where productive ppl get $0 per year
b) have a UBI, get rid of welfare, and everyone gets $12k per year (rich and poor alike)
miscers choose (a) and keep $0. just lol, classic
$12k per year isnt much but its better than nothing and at least i get some of it instead of just giving it to everyone else
b) have a UBI, get rid of welfare, and everyone gets $12k per year (rich and poor alike)
miscers choose (a) and keep $0. just lol, classic
$12k per year isnt much but its better than nothing and at least i get some of it instead of just giving it to everyone else
I’d love to have an extra $24,000 income in my house each year, but that doesn’t make it a good idea.
12-09-2017, 03:37 PM
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#68
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Originally Posted By Gainzzz⏩
I think compassion can be a benefit, it can also be a weakness. I do not think a society should be built on what would be the most compassionate though. Compassion is an abstract idea, and it is subjective. We need objective standards to operate by. Rationale solutions that factor historical outcomes, empirical data, and logic is far superior to "empathy and compassion"You're right, I worded it wrongly.
I meant that UBI would replace the current welfare system and remove all the bullchit bureaucracy that goes with it. The current system forces people to stay on welfare because getting a job is simply not even worth it. They would be worse off. With UBI, that money is guaranteed which allows them to work if they want to live a better life. They could choose to live in poverty on $1,000 per month or get a job and live fairly comfortably, even a low paid job. I would be for removing the minimum wage as well.
There are always going to be bottom-feeders of a society. I truly do not believe just letting them die off is a realistic solution. Anyone pushing those ideas would never get elected at any level.
This is what I meant when comparing you to SJWs, they constantly push unrealistic ideas, and that's what you're doing. It's easy to come up with ideas that would work in theory.
You don't think compassion is beneficial to a society? There is a lot more to building a decent society than the economy.
I meant that UBI would replace the current welfare system and remove all the bullchit bureaucracy that goes with it. The current system forces people to stay on welfare because getting a job is simply not even worth it. They would be worse off. With UBI, that money is guaranteed which allows them to work if they want to live a better life. They could choose to live in poverty on $1,000 per month or get a job and live fairly comfortably, even a low paid job. I would be for removing the minimum wage as well.
There are always going to be bottom-feeders of a society. I truly do not believe just letting them die off is a realistic solution. Anyone pushing those ideas would never get elected at any level.
This is what I meant when comparing you to SJWs, they constantly push unrealistic ideas, and that's what you're doing. It's easy to come up with ideas that would work in theory.
You don't think compassion is beneficial to a society? There is a lot more to building a decent society than the economy.
Many of the people ITT support UBI because they say there will be no other jobs, because their jobs are being automated. So that poverty 12k a year will be it, there won't be any option for them to just go get another job, because the low tier jobs have been automated. You think having a large population of people that get 12k a year from the government as their sole means of survival is a good thing? Again if you understand human nature you will understand the mental issues that will stem from this. These people will become depressed, they will turn to drugs, crime, suicide, ect. Imagine you had nothing to do all day, you got 12k a year for your basic needs, does that sounds like an appealing life? No purpose, their life will feel meaningless. Most humans will develop severe issues in that environment. Not only do the people receiving the 12k a year not benefit, they live a poverty depressing life, but everyone else suffers too with higher crime, drug problems, tax, ect. Nobody benefits with UBI except for the Mark Zuckerbergs of the world.
12-09-2017, 03:42 PM
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#69
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Originally Posted By RightKindaGuy⏩
c) Get rid of the current welfare state, don't have a UBI. Have a free market with no marxist ideas at all.a) keep our current welfare state where productive ppl get $0 per year
b) have a UBI, get rid of welfare, and everyone gets $12k per year (rich and poor alike)
miscers choose (a) and keep $0. just lol, classic
$12k per year isnt much but its better than nothing and at least i get some of it instead of just giving it to everyone else
b) have a UBI, get rid of welfare, and everyone gets $12k per year (rich and poor alike)
miscers choose (a) and keep $0. just lol, classic
$12k per year isnt much but its better than nothing and at least i get some of it instead of just giving it to everyone else
I don't want or need a handout, I can create my own wealth by providing value to others. I ask that others do not take what I've earned for myself at gunpoint to redistribute to others who did not earn it.
12-09-2017, 03:46 PM
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#70
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Originally Posted By thorpowers⏩
So you want to let a few billion people die to create your economic utopia?I think compassion can be a benefit, it can also be a weakness. I do not think a society should be built on what would be the most compassionate though. Compassion is an abstract idea, and it is subjective. We need objective standards to operate by. Rationale solutions that factor historical outcomes, empirical data, and logic is far superior to "empathy and compassion"
Many of the people ITT support UBI because they say there will be no other jobs, because their jobs are being automated. So that poverty 12k a year will be it, there won't be any option for them to just go get another job, because the low tier jobs have been automated. You think having a large population of people that get 12k a year from the government as their sole means of survival is a good thing? Again if you understand human nature you will understand the mental issues that will stem from this. These people will become depressed, they will turn to drugs, crime, suicide, ect. Imagine you had nothing to do all day, you got 12k a year for your basic needs, does that sounds like an appealing life? No purpose, their life will feel meaningless. Most humans will develop severe issues in that environment. Not only do the people receiving the 12k a year not benefit, they live a poverty depressing life, but everyone else suffers too with higher crime, drug problems, tax, ect. Nobody benefits with UBI except for the Mark Zuckerbergs of the world.
Many of the people ITT support UBI because they say there will be no other jobs, because their jobs are being automated. So that poverty 12k a year will be it, there won't be any option for them to just go get another job, because the low tier jobs have been automated. You think having a large population of people that get 12k a year from the government as their sole means of survival is a good thing? Again if you understand human nature you will understand the mental issues that will stem from this. These people will become depressed, they will turn to drugs, crime, suicide, ect. Imagine you had nothing to do all day, you got 12k a year for your basic needs, does that sounds like an appealing life? No purpose, their life will feel meaningless. Most humans will develop severe issues in that environment. Not only do the people receiving the 12k a year not benefit, they live a poverty depressing life, but everyone else suffers too with higher crime, drug problems, tax, ect. Nobody benefits with UBI except for the Mark Zuckerbergs of the world.
12-09-2017, 03:47 PM
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#71
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Originally Posted By yabbayabba⏩
If they die, they die.So you want to let a few billion people die to create your economic utopia?
12-09-2017, 03:49 PM
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#72
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Things I learned today: There are people who actually believe in UBI on a serious level.
12-09-2017, 03:51 PM
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#73
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Originally Posted By yabbayabba⏩
You want to steal $ from/disenfranchise a large portion of the population to create.. what? A society full of slovenly, lazy losers who sit around all day? These people are still going to bitch about how it's "unfair" that they're poor, and vote for ever more and more "Free ****" from the "evil" 1%. It never ends.So you want to let a few billion people die to create your economic utopia?
Yes. Let them die.
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12-09-2017, 03:52 PM
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#74
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Originally Posted By EmmaW4tson⏩
The terrifying thing is, as soon as they become the 51% majority (which will happen soon), it'll be implemented.Things I learned today: There are people who actually believe in UBI on a serious level.
Goodnight sweet everything
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12-09-2017, 03:56 PM
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#75
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Originally Posted By UTSoccerbro⏩
Yup especially since these are men on a bodybuilding forum advocating for this. Females are already 51% of voters and they overwhelmingly support this because they inherently value security over freedom. The fact so many men also support it is scary.The terrifying thing is, as soon as they become the 51% majority (which will happen soon), it'll be implemented.
Goodnight sweet everything
Goodnight sweet everything
Why not have the UBI be 100k a year....because 'compassion'.
12-09-2017, 03:59 PM
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#76
Originally Posted By InstantLoser⏩
When automation takes over, literally nobody will be suggesting 'let them die' as an option. Again, we needrealisticideas to deal with problems.You want to steal $ from/disenfranchise a large portion of the population to create.. what? A society full of slovenly, lazy losers who sit around all day? These people are still going to bitch about how it's "unfair" that they're poor, and vote for ever more and more "Free ****" from the "evil" 1%. It never ends.
Yes. Let them die.
Yes. Let them die.
Posturing online is not beneficial to anyone.
Also you do realise the people who will lose jobs due to automation will be people that were.. working?
12-09-2017, 04:02 PM
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#77
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Well this doesn't benefit me at all, so I'm against it.
12-09-2017, 04:05 PM
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#78
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Originally Posted By Gainzzz⏩
When automation reaches the point that AI can innovate, create content, basically do every job, then labor will be free via robots. You're talking about a singularity type scenario where resources are no longer finite because AI and robots do everything. Money would be obsolete at that point, if you wanted food it would be free, whatever you wanted would be free. It would be like startrek. We are nowhere near that level, when we are we won't need UBI because everything will be free.When automation takes over, literally nobody will be suggesting 'let them die' as an option. Again, we needrealisticideas to deal with problems.
Posturing online is not beneficial to anyone.
Also you do realise the people who will lose jobs from automation were people that were.. working?
Posturing online is not beneficial to anyone.
Also you do realise the people who will lose jobs from automation were people that were.. working?
The jobs automation is currently replacing are low skill jobs like fast food workers, assembly line workers, ect. There are also plenty of new jobs in tech emerging. Learn a skill. Add value to society. People were saying the same thing when machines replaced all the agriculture workers. Majority of people adapted and learned a new skill.
12-09-2017, 04:05 PM
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#79
Originally Posted By RightKindaGuy⏩
who exactly is going to pay for this 12k a year that everyone will be getting? Here is a novel idea...how about instead of stealing all my money via taxes, just let me keep my money. I don't want 12k from you or the government. I just want to keep the money that I earn.a) keep our current welfare state where productive ppl get $0 per year
b) have a UBI, get rid of welfare, and everyone gets $12k per year (rich and poor alike)
miscers choose (a) and keep $0. just lol, classic
$12k per year isnt much but its better than nothing and at least i get some of it instead of just giving it to everyone else
b) have a UBI, get rid of welfare, and everyone gets $12k per year (rich and poor alike)
miscers choose (a) and keep $0. just lol, classic
$12k per year isnt much but its better than nothing and at least i get some of it instead of just giving it to everyone else
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12-09-2017, 04:08 PM
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#80
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Originally Posted By RightKindaGuy⏩
Those aren’t the only two options. Those are just options where Big Mommy Government magically pays for everything with endless new debt...a) keep our current welfare state where productive ppl get $0 per year
b) have a UBI, get rid of welfare, and everyone gets $12k per year (rich and poor alike)
b) have a UBI, get rid of welfare, and everyone gets $12k per year (rich and poor alike)
Hint: Your plan (b) consumes the entire federal budget at $3.8 Trillion per year.
12-09-2017, 04:08 PM
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#81
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Originally Posted By UTSoccerbro⏩
Majority is not 51%. It is 50% plus 1. It will happen sooner than you thought. Hue hue hue.The terrifying thing is, as soon as they become the 51% majority (which will happen soon), it'll be implemented.
Goodnight sweet everything
Goodnight sweet everything
But srs, I have not heard of or read any actual real legislative initiative to support this. Honestly, nothing more than people have discussions about it's possibility and the anticipated outcome.
Maybe you have?
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12-09-2017, 04:12 PM
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#82
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Originally Posted By Gainzzz⏩
Who's posturing? Advocating theft isn't beneficial to anyone.When automation takes over, literally nobody will be suggesting 'let them die' as an option. Again, we needrealisticideas to deal with problems.
Posturing online is not beneficial to anyone.
Also you do realise the people who will lose jobs due to automation will be people that were.. working?
Posturing online is not beneficial to anyone.
Also you do realise the people who will lose jobs due to automation will be people that were.. working?
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12-09-2017, 04:12 PM
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#83
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Originally Posted By Ironmanlet⏩
There's no legislative action at any national level whatsoever, but there's the rumblings of it. Test cities in Canada, vocal support from major social elites, etc. Nothing that makes me think it would be introduced or even tested for decades, but when I was in highschool watching The Apprentice I never thought I'd see Trump tweeting as the POTUS either, so there's that. Chit happens quick.Majority is not 51%. It is 50% plus 1. It will happen sooner than you thought. Hue hue hue.
But srs, I have not heard of or read any actual real legislative initiative to support this. Honestly, nothing more than people have discussions about it's possibility and the anticipated outcome.
Maybe you have?
But srs, I have not heard of or read any actual real legislative initiative to support this. Honestly, nothing more than people have discussions about it's possibility and the anticipated outcome.
Maybe you have?
My thesis on this is that it could be a great idea in theory, I just have no faith in any government entity to implement it efficiently and effectively. It'll be completely mauled and abused and end up castrating the country.
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12-09-2017, 04:15 PM
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#84
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I would support Universal Basic Income for senior citizens who are penniless and have no social security or means of financial support.
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12-09-2017, 04:19 PM
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#85
Originally Posted By jtaylor2010⏩
By removing welfare, Medicaid, and other social programs that are poorly run.Where does the money come from?If it comes through higher taxes on companies then they would absolutely seek to make up the lost revenue through higher prices for consumers, especially if they knew billions of dollars of disposable income were being pumped into the economy each month.
We’ve spent over twenty Trillion dollars fighting a “war on poverty” and only made things worse. Are these the people we trust to implement a UBI? The world is ran by governments and corporations, which ultimately seek to strengthen themselves. If you think anything would get passed that doesn’t serve that goal first and foremost you’re being extremely naive.
We’ve spent over twenty Trillion dollars fighting a “war on poverty” and only made things worse. Are these the people we trust to implement a UBI? The world is ran by governments and corporations, which ultimately seek to strengthen themselves. If you think anything would get passed that doesn’t serve that goal first and foremost you’re being extremely naive.
12-09-2017, 04:20 PM
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#86
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Originally Posted By thorpowers⏩
Best response in this threadAdapt. Innovation and content creation can not be automated by machines at this point. 150 years ago 95% of people were farmers, today 2% of people work in agriculture because it has been automated with machines. People adapted. 90 years ago the majority of Americans worked in factories doing manufacturing. That is no longer true either. Some people will not be able to adapt, they need to be left to fail.
As automation becomes more widespread, the education system will change accordingly, as will the jobs on offer. Free markets have a way of working these things out, economics 101. Distortions from policies like UBI will never end well
12-09-2017, 04:22 PM
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#87
Originally Posted By thorpowers⏩
@First paragraph, that's not what I was talking about.When automation reaches the point that AI can innovate, create content, basically do every job, then labor will be free via robots. You're talking about a singularity type scenario where resources are no longer finite because AI and robots do everything. Money would be obsolete at that point, if you wanted food it would be free, whatever you wanted would be free. It would be like startrek. We are nowhere near that level, when we are we won't need UBI because everything will be free.
The jobs automation is currently replacing are low skill jobs like fast food workers, assembly line workers, ect.There are also plenty of new jobs in tech emerging. Learn a skill. Add value to society. People were saying the same thing when machines replaced all the agriculture workers. Majority of people adapted and learned a new skill.
The jobs automation is currently replacing are low skill jobs like fast food workers, assembly line workers, ect.There are also plenty of new jobs in tech emerging. Learn a skill. Add value to society. People were saying the same thing when machines replaced all the agriculture workers. Majority of people adapted and learned a new skill.
@Bold, you're talking about millions of people losing their jobs. That is not insignificant. I already know your response though so we may as well end it here.
I just look at UBI as more efficient and potentially more beneficial than the current system. No matter how badly you want to live in a society with no welfare, it's not happening. And I don't mean that in a snarky way.
Originally Posted By UTSoccerbro⏩
This is the main concern.My thesis on this is that it could be a great idea in theory, I just have no faith in any government entity to implement it efficiently and effectively. It'll be completely mauled and abused and end up castrating the country.
12-09-2017, 04:24 PM
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#88
12-09-2017, 04:25 PM
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#89
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Originally Posted By IH8RICE⏩
That would account for a small percentage of UBI for the entire US...By removing welfare, Medicaid, and other social programs that are poorly run.
$3.8 Trillion (assuming a measly $12k/year), out of current total federal spending of $4 Trillion...
12-09-2017, 04:26 PM
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#90
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Originally Posted By Gainzzz⏩
I agree it's not happening, we've already crossed the point of no return. The masses will keep voting in more government, more regulations, more welfare, more socialism... and we will collapse. The golden era is long over, we are past our peak. Giving females the right to vote was the nail in the coffin. When it collapses all the weak, incompetent, lazy, ect will die off anyways so in the end they always lose. Nature has away of correcting and balancing things.@First paragraph, that's not what I was talking about.
@Bold, you're talking about millions of people losing their jobs. That is not insignificant. I already know your response though so we may as well end it here.
I just look at UBI as more efficient and potentially more beneficial than the current system. No matter how badly you want to live in a society with no welfare, it's not happening. And I don't mean that in a snarky way.
@Bold, you're talking about millions of people losing their jobs. That is not insignificant. I already know your response though so we may as well end it here.
I just look at UBI as more efficient and potentially more beneficial than the current system. No matter how badly you want to live in a society with no welfare, it's not happening. And I don't mean that in a snarky way.
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