When does marriage actually make sense?

03-28-2019, 09:32 AM

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#91

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Originally Posted By Mumra⏩

marriage wasn't invented for romantic purposes. it's only been a hundred years or so that society has viewed it in that way. that pretty much explains why it fails so much. we're using a tool to do a job it wasn't designed to do. of course it won't work.

But again, I think you're confusing 'often doesn't work' with 'never works'. There's a logical distinction between the two. What explains 'why it fails so much' for me boils down to the people entering into the marriage, not the act itself.

Let's look at it from the other perspective: marriage won't work for the vast majority of people - so most people shouldn't get married. They might as well remain in long term relationships. In fact, there's an amazing paper on this that I have linked before but is underappreciated in the overall discussion usually. It examines why women want divorce more than their male counterparts:

https://web.stanford.edu/~mrosenfe/R...of_breakup.pdf

Some of my favorite parts:

"Most divorces in the US are wanted by the wife. In this paper I suggest (for the first time) that the gender gap in relationship satisfaction and the gender gap in who wants the breakup are unique to heterosexual marriage. Nonmarital heterosexual unions have a gender neutral breakup pattern and a gender neutral pattern of relationship satisfaction. Neither women’s supposedly greater sensitivity to relationship problems, nor income gaps, nor education gaps, nor conservative religious identity, nor woman’s age, nor the presence of children explain why women are so much more likely than men to desire exit from heterosexual marriage, but no more likely than men to desire exit from nonmarital heterosexual unions."

and (the paper acknowledges that divorce results tend to favor women)

"The gender gap in marital satisfaction which is consistent across the life course and across historical time suggests that women’s role in marital breakup is not simply introduced at the end of relationships for instrumental reasons; rather, the gender of breakup appears to be rooted in marriage itself."

and

"Wives have predominated in wanting divorce since the earliest available data on who wanted divorce from the 1940s. Wives have consistently reported lower marital satisfaction than husbands since the earliest available data from the 1970s."

Cliffs: women report lower levels of happiness in marriage, though the happiness does not track any specific element. This unhappiness leads to more divorces being initiated by women, but this does not indicate that the women are using divorce in an instrumental manner. Women have always wanted to divorce more than men - since divorce data has been available. Therefore: women are far more likely to be unhappily married than men are. Yet, in heterosexual non-married unions, there is no gendered relationship with unhappiness in the relationship.

So being married apparently makes women unhappy. And I'll go back to what I said above - many people are not cut out for marriage. But it doesn't mean that marriage is useless. In the paper I cite, the author states:

"Most married women are happily married, and the marital network tie remains the most stable (and some scholars would argue, the most important) network tie in the modern social world."

These statistics show that plenty of people get married for the wrong reason. Where you say 'romance' I'd say 'because people believe they should get married'. Anyone reading this has known men and women who said 'I should settle down now' or 'I'll settle down after college' - any attempt to 'settle down' in a relationship is doomed to fail. The very notion of 'settling down' is bizarre.

03-28-2019, 09:48 AM

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#92

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Originally Posted By superman704⏩

I never knew the song du hast was about marriage wtf. I must admit, all my life I've had a HUGE fear of marriage, I guess I fear I would lose my temper and abuse my wife until she dies or something. I guess deep inside I value my freedom too much

Yeah, Du Hast sounds like some kind of war song, but it's really about marriage.

The phrase "Du Hast" is also a German play on words because "Hast" means "have" but also sounds like "Hasst" which means "hate". So, he is cleverly saying "you have me, you hate me" at the same time. As I've said it's a guy who is devoted to his woman but then questions her for wanting to get married because it's like making him sign a contract saying he's devoted, which means she doesn't trust him.

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03-28-2019, 11:38 AM

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#93

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Originally Posted By Mumra⏩

dad and exstep-mom got divorced after 27 years last year as well.

he had to sell our business and the house then split the cash 50/50. so my 62 year old dad doesn't have a home(he 's got a nice place to live now) or a job. he also has to pay ALIMONY FOR THE REST OF HIS LIFE. so unless my dad can land a good job at 62 years old he will effectively be giving her all of the money minus what he uses to live on until he dies or goes broke, whatever happens first.

#Marriage

guys see the roses and romance but when shi.t REALLY goes south, a woman can take everything from a man.
I will have a Prenuptial Agreement before ever getting married because of the assets I have.

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03-28-2019, 11:48 AM

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#94

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Originally Posted By redraider86⏩

Yeah, it's really more about the theatrics men pull in court. For all of our faults, women at least know when to STFU and listen to our lawyers. Or to evengeta lawyer. The number of men who go full retard/pro se because they listen to real life misc is bonkers. I can't imagine pulling a martyr card if my kids were involved, but somehow y'all pull it off. Tell divorcing men to stop being dumb and they might fare better.

asked a buddy of mine who owns a business if he is getting a prenup together before getting married.

he asks "why would i need that?"

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03-28-2019, 11:48 AM

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#95

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Originally Posted By ssilv⏩

guys see the roses and romance but when shi.t REALLY goes south, a woman can take everything from a man.
I will have a Prenuptial Agreement before ever getting married because of the assets I have.

ya know that can get thrown out because the judge doesn't think it's "fair" or the wife can claim that she was pressured into it.

you have no rights in divorce court. everything it 100% up to the judge's opinion.

Originally Posted By redraider86⏩

Yeah, it's really more about the theatrics men pull in court. For all of our faults, women at least know when to STFU and listen to our lawyers. Or to evengeta lawyer. The number of men who go full retard/pro se because they listen to real life misc is bonkers. I can't imagine pulling a martyr card if my kids were involved, but somehow y'all pull it off. Tell divorcingmen to stop being dumband they might fare better.

men, don't get married.

done.

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03-28-2019, 11:51 AM

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#96

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Originally Posted By redraider86⏩

Exactly. Men need to stop acting like victims and fight back, legally, and in a way that courts will view favorably.

the funniest part is when a woman wants a divorce, she usually already has a guy in mind for her next marriage.

my great aunt has had 4 husbands and 3 of them have died. she is a multimillionaire.

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03-28-2019, 12:01 PM

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#97

backinthegymbro
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Originally Posted By redraider86⏩

But seriously, the biggest reason men get fuked over is because they are combative, roll their eyes, and otherwise act like complete morons in the courtroom. That would eliminate a whole lot of perceived bias.

I think the court is unfair when it comes to men vs women. Evidence of this is all over based on the sentences etc, regardless of behavior imo.

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03-28-2019, 12:06 PM

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#98

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Originally Posted By darkninja67⏩

IF you truly love each other and want to be together forever then marriage makes the most sense for two people.

Lol don't be ridiculous.

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03-28-2019, 12:07 PM

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#99

backinthegymbro
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Originally Posted By redraider86⏩

You can think that, but I'm assuming you haven't sat in on a whole lot of family court or represented one party in a custody dispute. I'm not saying there isn't evidence to suggest that, but I am asking for people to think a bit deeper than "CoUrTs hAtE mEn!"

Best way is to settle things outside of court in a civil manner coming to mutual terms like in here.

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03-28-2019, 12:22 PM

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#100

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Originally Posted By redraider86⏩

LOL. We both know that's not a reality, nor is that even the truth for many. I'm not anti-marriage, but I'm not necessarily pro-marriage either, I'm just agnostic towards either and I hate myself for using that word. I think there are actionable steps both parties can take to mitigate risks. But seriously,the biggest reason men get fuked over is because they are combative, roll their eyes, and otherwise act like complete morons in the courtroom.That would eliminate a whole lot of perceived bias.

that's a lot of speculation.

I think it's pretty well proven that they system is designed to favor the women by a large margin. besides we all know women and being overly dramatic go together like PB&J. I think most divorced men will tell you that they got screwed over because the ex wanted to do so. Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned.

my dad offered more money a month than the alimony she is currently awarded if he got to keep the business she had no involvement what so ever. the judge(female) didn't want to hear it and said, "I don't care. I just want to know what the total assets are so I can split them.". his ex-wife could have accepted the offer before court and it would have been over quickly instead of the year and a half. but no she anted to spite him because she knew she could.

Originally Posted By backinthegymbro⏩

I think the court is unfair when it comes to men vs women. Evidence of this is all over based on the sentences etc, regardless of behavior imo.

yep

Originally Posted By redraider86⏩

You can think that, but I'm assuming you haven't sat in on a whole lot of family court or represented one party in a custody dispute. I'm not saying there isn't evidence to suggest that, but I am asking for people to think a bit deeper than "CoUrTs hAtE mEn!"

I'd bet I've spent more time in divorce courts than anyone here. dad married twice and mom 3 times.

my mom got to keep despite having no stability what so ever while being married to a guy with a criminal record a mile long that beat her on a regular basis despite my dad having a decent(at the time) wife and a good home simply because she wanted to. he had no chance in hell in court of getting me no matter how justified it was because of the courts bias against men.

to lose your kid(s) as a woman you basically have to show up to court with a heroin needle in your arm and even then it's only a maybe.

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03-28-2019, 12:25 PM

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#101

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when your wife is a 9.5/10 who fuks like a pronstar

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03-28-2019, 12:34 PM

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#102

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call me when a woman has to pay child support for a kid that isn't even hers.
https://nypost.com/2017/07/23/man-or...-who-isnt-his/

In 2003, a child support court in Texas ruled that Gabriel Cornejo, 45, had to pay child support to his ex-girlfriend, who had recently given birth, because she vowed there was no way he wasn’t the rightful dad.

based on her word alone.

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03-28-2019, 12:47 PM

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#103

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Originally Posted By redraider86⏩

She totally attempted to hit him with, "You're a man and you want support from your wife?" line. To which mediation responded with a resounding...Yes.

i could read this over and over again all day.

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03-28-2019, 01:06 PM

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#104

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I'm failing to find any data or articles or anything really that suggests the reason men lose in divorce courts is because they act up and disrespect the judge.

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03-28-2019, 01:07 PM

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#105

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03-28-2019, 01:11 PM

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#106

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Originally Posted By Mumra⏩

I'm failing to find any data or articles or anything really that suggests the reason men lose in divorce courts is because they act up and disrespect the judge.

i know of three dudes who basically said "fuk it she can have whatever she wants"

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03-28-2019, 01:26 PM

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#107

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I know a few couples that are just absolutely crazy about one another, but for the most part people get married because it's "time" apparently, or they realize they're not getting any younger, etc.

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03-28-2019, 01:31 PM

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#108

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Originally Posted By AltarOfPlagues⏩

i know of three dudes who basically said "fuk it she can have whatever she wants"

yeah, I've seen that as well. but of course that's not enough for her.

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03-28-2019, 05:12 PM

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#109

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Originally Posted By TheAdlerian⏩

Yeah, Du Hast sounds like some kind of war song, but it's really about marriage.

The phrase "Du Hast" is also a German play on words because "Hast" means "have" but also sounds like "Hasst" which means "hate". So, he is cleverly saying "you have me, you hate me" at the same time. As I've said it's a guy who is devoted to his woman but then questions her for wanting to get married because it's like making him sign a contract saying he's devoted, which means she doesn't trust him.

I've always like Rammstein, their music is amazing to me

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03-28-2019, 05:19 PM

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#110

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Originally Posted By ssilv⏩

the funniest part is when a woman wants a divorce, she usually already has a guy in mind for her next marriage.

my great aunt has had 4 husbands and 3 of them have died. she is a multimillionaire.

This is...disgusting

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03-28-2019, 05:27 PM

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#111

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03-28-2019, 05:36 PM

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#112

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I read an article today a billionaire had to pay his ex wife 600 million. I will never understand why people feel thats fair if he earned it. 10 mil would be enough she never has to work again.. Its completely illogical.

03-28-2019, 05:37 PM

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#113

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If you want kids.

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03-28-2019, 06:16 PM

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#114

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I’m going through a divorce. No kids, no property. Pretty simple. Dated for 6 years before getting married. Only married 1.5 years. Here’s what I learned from the short time:

-always respect her, love her, care for her, but don’t be afraid to show her you also love yourself and that ultimately you are the prize. You don’t need to say it, just don’t let her run (and/or her family) you over.

- there will be arguments of course. You both need to get better at fixing those or talking things out like adults.

-don’t marry someone who doesn’t have a job/doesn’t have a promising future. Love and sex might make you oversee this, but don’t do it cause it’ll bite you in the ass.

-look at her family. That’s who you’re marrying too. Look at the mom...your wife will probably look like that in the future.

-violence is never the answer (this is the reason for my divorce. Violence on her part). Always try to work things out, but once it happens repeatedly, leave.

-if during your relationship/engaged time, you’re still wanting to bang other girls, screw around or you can’t seem to stop thinking of other girls, don’t get married!

I know i haven’t been single in years. But looking at other couples/marriages from the outside, I see that a lot of dudes seem miserable and settle because they don’t want to be alone. I’m gonna embrace my single life for some time.

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03-28-2019, 06:53 PM

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#115

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I define marriage differently than most people. To me it's not the state or the church that decides who my wife is, but my penis. If I'm smashing, then she's my woman, as far as I'm concerned. If she gets smashed by another guy, then that's adultery. If she decides to leave me, then that's a divorce. No rings, no prenups, no problems. I'm very traditional in that sense.

03-29-2019, 01:29 AM

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#116

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Originally Posted By redraider86⏩

Tell divorcing men to stop being dumb and they might fare better.

Except that, per my previous post in this thread, women have always wanted to divorce more than men. Yet in heterosexual LTRs that gender disparity doesn't hold. So it isn't as simple as men "reacting to divorce better".

03-29-2019, 01:32 AM

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#117

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03-29-2019, 01:33 AM

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#118

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Marriage wouldn't be a problem if divorce rape weren't so common. Honestly, the rule that she gets half + child support is outdated af. If they stopped giving aid to people based on family size and number of children, and they stopped all alimony/child support + giving her half, marriage would make a lot more sense. I mean, it used to be "til death do us part", and divorces used to be reserved mainly for adultery. That's not how it works anymore.