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Has Tom Brady reached Michael Jordan's level of GOATness? (if not, why?)
01-25-2021, 01:52 PM
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#91
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Originally Posted By Ken-O⏩
This is a good takeProbably Tennis?
Which brings me to another point. IMO Tiger Woods and Federer are better GOATS at their respective sports than Brady at Football.
Which brings me to another point. IMO Tiger Woods and Federer are better GOATS at their respective sports than Brady at Football.
01-25-2021, 01:53 PM
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#92
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To me, yes. I don't watch much football anymore. When I was a kid pro football had some interest for me. Now, I'll sometimes watch a former hometown college football team but often have a tough time viewing the whole game. A quarter or two is about all I can handle. With the NFL the only player I'll watch some is Tom Brady and the team he is with. I watched most of last nights game. It was a snoozer I thought, but Brady was playing and that kept my interest.
MJ was the same way. You might not be a basketball fan, but MJ was someone special, someone to enjoy viewing.
MJ was the same way. You might not be a basketball fan, but MJ was someone special, someone to enjoy viewing.
01-25-2021, 01:55 PM
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#93
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I feel like you can name many quarterbacks that individually are more skilled/talented than Brady, or even put up better numbers. But it is hard to compare NFL and NBA.
However Jordan did it all. He was the most skilled/talented/athletic player of late 80s to his 2nd retirement in the late 90s. Best scorer of his era, top defender for stretches of his career. The numbers he put up justified his greatness. Had alot of incredible individual performances where he would just carry and will the team to victory. If we took winning out of the equation for a second and just based greatness off of the individual basketball player skills, talents, how effectively they played, the numbers they put up. You'd still say Jordan.
However Jordan did it all. He was the most skilled/talented/athletic player of late 80s to his 2nd retirement in the late 90s. Best scorer of his era, top defender for stretches of his career. The numbers he put up justified his greatness. Had alot of incredible individual performances where he would just carry and will the team to victory. If we took winning out of the equation for a second and just based greatness off of the individual basketball player skills, talents, how effectively they played, the numbers they put up. You'd still say Jordan.
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01-25-2021, 01:57 PM
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#94
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Originally Posted By Ken-O⏩
If you count a skill then Woods qualifies. He does not have opponents trying to kill him so its not the same but sure, he changed the sport for 2 decades. Federer is a little short of 2 decades and won a lot more when he was younger but sure, he is in the conversation.Probably Tennis?
Which brings me to another point. IMO Tiger Woods and Federer are better GOATS at their respective sports than Brady at Football.
Which brings me to another point. IMO Tiger Woods and Federer are better GOATS at their respective sports than Brady at Football.
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01-25-2021, 01:57 PM
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#95
01-25-2021, 01:58 PM
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#96
Originally Posted By Ken-O⏩
It’s hard enough to argue a sport where you play both waysProbably Tennis?
Which brings me to another point. IMO Tiger Woods and Federer are better GOATS at their respective sports than Brady at Football.
Which brings me to another point. IMO Tiger Woods and Federer are better GOATS at their respective sports than Brady at Football.
It’s even harder to argue solo sports
Brady is the greatest football player of all time. And that’s all that really matters
01-25-2021, 01:59 PM
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#97
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Originally Posted By Vhagar⏩
Its hard, but doesnt mean it cant be done. Just gotta use the right arguments and ask the right questions.It’s hard enough to argue a sport where you play both ways
It’s even harder to argue solo sports
Brady is the greatest football player of all time. And that’s all that really matters
It’s even harder to argue solo sports
Brady is the greatest football player of all time. And that’s all that really matters
If you can say Jordan is for sure better than Mark Sanchez at their respective sports, then you can sure as hell start an argument with Brady. It is simply harder.
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01-25-2021, 02:00 PM
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#98
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Originally Posted By sooby⏩
This is true. At their peak, no other athlete in sports history is able to stack up to what Jordan carried and what he did on both ends of the floor. I'd argue that LeBron has had an equal amount of GOATness level as Brady right now. Both are still going strong but you can't beat MJ's peakI feel like you can name many quarterbacks that individually are more skilled/talented than Brady, or even put up better numbers. But it is hard to compare NFL and NBA.
However Jordan did it all. He was the most skilled/talented/athletic player of late 80s to his 2nd retirement in the late 90s. Best scorer of his era, top defender for stretches of his career. The numbers he put up justified his greatness. Had alot of incredible individual performances where he would just carry and will the team to victory. If we took winning out of the equation for a second and just based greatness off of the individual basketball player skills, talents, how effectively they played, the numbers they put up. You'd still say Jordan.
However Jordan did it all. He was the most skilled/talented/athletic player of late 80s to his 2nd retirement in the late 90s. Best scorer of his era, top defender for stretches of his career. The numbers he put up justified his greatness. Had alot of incredible individual performances where he would just carry and will the team to victory. If we took winning out of the equation for a second and just based greatness off of the individual basketball player skills, talents, how effectively they played, the numbers they put up. You'd still say Jordan.
01-25-2021, 02:00 PM
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#99
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Imagine taking the Golden State Warriors and ramping that up over 6 years, they run a train on the rest of the league. Curry is the best because he is surrounded by the best players and the team dominates. For as much credit as people want to give to either guy these are team sports and unless they single-handedly made every play you can't credit their success to one guy.
Oh wait except in football the QB manages the whole game just count on defense to not suck ass so maybe Brady edges out... plus elite wife who made more $ than he did for some time plus he's still playing at 43 at the highest levels pure cope if you say otherwise against a guy who retired @ 33 lol @ Jordancels
Oh wait except in football the QB manages the whole game just count on defense to not suck ass so maybe Brady edges out... plus elite wife who made more $ than he did for some time plus he's still playing at 43 at the highest levels pure cope if you say otherwise against a guy who retired @ 33 lol @ Jordancels
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01-25-2021, 02:01 PM
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#100
Originally Posted By sonic9⏩
NO way! 2nd greatest ever? Haha, Not even close. Not even in the top 500 athletes of all time but nice try. Everyone puts him on a pedestal cause of superbowl rings but they can't see beyond that and what really happens. Then there is a new upcoming great QB and he gets brushed aside.jordan yes Kobe Bryant no..
so i guess brady is the second greatest :?
so i guess brady is the second greatest :?
01-25-2021, 02:27 PM
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#101
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too many low IQ posts ITT to address.
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01-25-2021, 02:28 PM
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#102
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Originally Posted By GarthVader⏩
How about giving your opinion and arguments without focusing on the ones you disagree with?too many low IQ posts ITT to address.
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01-25-2021, 02:59 PM
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#103
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The Michael Jordan myth needs to die down. The Air Jordans and his dominance in the watered down, low offense 1990's. are overblown.
Is he the GOAT? Probably, but I'd rather have Bird, Magic and Lebron. Bird won 3 straight MVPs in a league with Magic, MJ, Dr. J, Moses Malone, Kareem, Isiah, Dominique Wilkins, Sidney Moncrief, Bernard King. The NBA was LOADED with players, and Larry was the greatest
BRB
Came in league in 1984,
Celtics won
85 Lakers won
86 scores 63 against Celtics and they LOSE that game Celtics win
87 Lakers win
88 Lakers
89 Pistons
90 Pistons
First 7 years in league his teams lose. All those teams went through a meat grinder in the playoffs. You'd watch a game and there are 8 Hall of famers on the floor.
MJ didn't. win until Larry's back gave out, Magic caught the High 5, Dr. J retired, and the Pistons with Isiah had their run. Who did Michael beat? Cleveland, Jazz, Lakers once but they were old. Knicks (they sucked)
Tom Brady has been a starting QB for 19 years. In 2000 he backed up Bledsoe and in 2008 blew out his knee vs. the Chiefs in the 1st game.
This is his 10th Super Bowl. He has been to 14 Conference Championships in 19 years. OVER 70%
Marino, Brees, Rodgers, 3 guys in your probable to 10 of all team each only won one. He has won 10.
Is he the GOAT? Probably, but I'd rather have Bird, Magic and Lebron. Bird won 3 straight MVPs in a league with Magic, MJ, Dr. J, Moses Malone, Kareem, Isiah, Dominique Wilkins, Sidney Moncrief, Bernard King. The NBA was LOADED with players, and Larry was the greatest
BRB
Came in league in 1984,
Celtics won
85 Lakers won
86 scores 63 against Celtics and they LOSE that game Celtics win
87 Lakers win
88 Lakers
89 Pistons
90 Pistons
First 7 years in league his teams lose. All those teams went through a meat grinder in the playoffs. You'd watch a game and there are 8 Hall of famers on the floor.
MJ didn't. win until Larry's back gave out, Magic caught the High 5, Dr. J retired, and the Pistons with Isiah had their run. Who did Michael beat? Cleveland, Jazz, Lakers once but they were old. Knicks (they sucked)
Tom Brady has been a starting QB for 19 years. In 2000 he backed up Bledsoe and in 2008 blew out his knee vs. the Chiefs in the 1st game.
This is his 10th Super Bowl. He has been to 14 Conference Championships in 19 years. OVER 70%
Marino, Brees, Rodgers, 3 guys in your probable to 10 of all team each only won one. He has won 10.
01-25-2021, 03:06 PM
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#104
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Tom Brady is not the GOAT ONLY because of his rings. He has everything else to go with it. Not to mention the intangibles and mental acuity at the position. Also all the clutch throws, drives, plays and wins. There is so much more than rings that make him the GOAT. He has the whole body of work. Just accept it.
Regular Season passing yards leaders.
Rank Player Yards YPG
1 Drew Brees 80,358 279.99
2 Tom Brady 79,204 263.14
3 Peyton Manning 71,940 270.45
4 Brett Favre 71,838 237.87
5 Philip Rivers 63,440 260.00
Playoff passing yards leaders
Rank Player Yards YPG
1 Tom Brady 12,248 278.36
2 Peyton Manning 7,339 271.81
3 Brett Favre 5,855 243.96
4 Joe Montana 5,772 250.96
5 Ben Roethlisberger 5,757 261.68
Players with the most career passing yards including playoff games
1 Tom Brady 91,452
2 Drew Brees 85,724
3 Peyton Manning 79,279
4 Brett Favre 77,693
5 Philip Rivers 66,405
NFL Career QB Wins Leaders
1 Tom Brady 230-69
2 Brett Favre 186-112
Peyton Manning 186-79
4 Drew Brees 172-114
5 Ben Roethlisberger 156-74
Post Season Wins
1 Tom Brady 33
2 Joe Montana 16
3 Terry Bradshaw 14
John Elway
Peyton Manning
Regular Season Passing TD Leaders
Rank Player TDs
1 Tom Brady 581
2 Drew Brees 571
3 Peyton Manning 539
4 Brett Favre 508
5 Philip Rivers 421
Most Career TD Passes including playoff games
1 Tom Brady 661
2 Drew Brees 608
3 Peyton Manning 579
4 Brett Favre 552
5 Aaron Rodgers 457
Regular Season Completion Leaders
Rank Player Completions Attempts Pct
1 Drew Brees 7,142 10,551 67.69
2 Tom Brady 6,778 10,598 63.96
3 Brett Favre 6,300 10,169 61.95
4 Peyton Manning 6,125 9,380 65.30
5 Philip Rivers 5,277 8,134 64.88
Playoff Leaders
1. Tom Brady 1,085/1,735 62.54%
2 Peyton Manning 649/1,027 63.19
Individual NFL Records
Most career starts, regular season: 301 Tom Brady
Playoffs: 44
Oldest player, 158.33 perfect passer rating, game: Tom Brady (43 years, 145 days), Dec 26, 2020.
Most games, 140+ passer rating, career: 21, Peyton Manning, 2000–2014;[82] Tom Brady, 2001-2020
Most games, 140+ passer rating, season: 4, Jacky Lee, 1961; Roger Staubach, 1973; Tom Brady, 2007 & 2010; Aaron Rodgers 2011
Most seasons, 550+ pass attempts: 12, Tom Brady; 2002, 2007, 2009, 2011–2015, 2017–2020
Most games with at least 75% pass completion rate, season (minimum 20 attempts per game): 8, Tom Brady, 2007
Most games with at least 75% pass completion rate and no interceptions, season (minimum 20 attempts per game): 6, Tom Brady, 2007; Dak Prescott, 2016
Most seasons with at least 60% pass completion rate (minimum 100 attempts per season): 19, Tom Brady; 2001–2007, 2009–2020
Most seasons 2,000+ yards: 19, Tom Brady; 2001–2007, 2009–2020; Drew Brees, 2002–2020; Brett Favre, 1992–2010
Most seasons 2,500+ yards: 19, Tom Brady; 2001–2007, 2009–2020; Brett Favre, 1992–2010
Most seasons 3,000+ yards: 18, Tom Brady; 2002–2007, 2009–2020; Brett Favre, 1992–2009
Most seasons 3,500+ yards: 18, Tom Brady; 2002–2007 2009–2020
Most passing touchdowns, career:
Regular season: 581, Tom Brady, 2000–2020.[174]
Playoffs: 80, Tom Brady, 2002–2021.
Most games 1+ TD passes, career: 260, Tom Brady, 2000–2020.[175]
Most red zone touchdown passes: 383, Tom Brady
Most seasons, 20+ passing touchdowns: 18, Tom Brady, 2002–2007, 2009–2020[183]
Most seasons, 25+ passing touchdowns: 16, Tom Brady, 2002, 2004–2005, 2007, 2009–2020; Peyton Manning, 1998–2010, 2012–2014
Most seasons, 35+ passing touchdowns: 5, Tom Brady, 2007, 2010–2011, 2015, 2020; Aaron Rodgers, 2011–2012, 2014, 2016, 2020
Most consecutive uninterrupted games, 1+ passing touchdowns: 52, Tom Brady, 2010–2013
Most passing touchdowns, one quarter: 5, Tom Brady, Oct 18, 2009
Most games with 200+ yards passing and no interceptions, career: 123, Tom Brady, 2001–2019[194]
Most games with 200+ yards passing and no interceptions, season: 11, Tom Brady, 2012; Aaron Rodgers, 2014[195]
Most consecutive touchdowns, and no interceptions, home: 49, Aaron Rodgers[187]
Most games with 1+ touchdown passes and no interceptions, career: 134, Tom Brady, 2001–2019[196]
Most games with 1+ touchdown passes and no interceptions, season: 14, Tom Brady 2010[197]
Most consecutive games with 1+ touchdown passes and no interceptions: 11, Tom Brady, 2010
In 2007 Brady broke the single season passing TD record (50) which was held by Peyton Manning (48). It was later retaken by Manning.
Regular Season passing yards leaders.
Rank Player Yards YPG
1 Drew Brees 80,358 279.99
2 Tom Brady 79,204 263.14
3 Peyton Manning 71,940 270.45
4 Brett Favre 71,838 237.87
5 Philip Rivers 63,440 260.00
Playoff passing yards leaders
Rank Player Yards YPG
1 Tom Brady 12,248 278.36
2 Peyton Manning 7,339 271.81
3 Brett Favre 5,855 243.96
4 Joe Montana 5,772 250.96
5 Ben Roethlisberger 5,757 261.68
Players with the most career passing yards including playoff games
1 Tom Brady 91,452
2 Drew Brees 85,724
3 Peyton Manning 79,279
4 Brett Favre 77,693
5 Philip Rivers 66,405
NFL Career QB Wins Leaders
1 Tom Brady 230-69
2 Brett Favre 186-112
Peyton Manning 186-79
4 Drew Brees 172-114
5 Ben Roethlisberger 156-74
Post Season Wins
1 Tom Brady 33
2 Joe Montana 16
3 Terry Bradshaw 14
John Elway
Peyton Manning
Regular Season Passing TD Leaders
Rank Player TDs
1 Tom Brady 581
2 Drew Brees 571
3 Peyton Manning 539
4 Brett Favre 508
5 Philip Rivers 421
Most Career TD Passes including playoff games
1 Tom Brady 661
2 Drew Brees 608
3 Peyton Manning 579
4 Brett Favre 552
5 Aaron Rodgers 457
Regular Season Completion Leaders
Rank Player Completions Attempts Pct
1 Drew Brees 7,142 10,551 67.69
2 Tom Brady 6,778 10,598 63.96
3 Brett Favre 6,300 10,169 61.95
4 Peyton Manning 6,125 9,380 65.30
5 Philip Rivers 5,277 8,134 64.88
Playoff Leaders
1. Tom Brady 1,085/1,735 62.54%
2 Peyton Manning 649/1,027 63.19
Individual NFL Records
Most career starts, regular season: 301 Tom Brady
Playoffs: 44
Oldest player, 158.33 perfect passer rating, game: Tom Brady (43 years, 145 days), Dec 26, 2020.
Most games, 140+ passer rating, career: 21, Peyton Manning, 2000–2014;[82] Tom Brady, 2001-2020
Most games, 140+ passer rating, season: 4, Jacky Lee, 1961; Roger Staubach, 1973; Tom Brady, 2007 & 2010; Aaron Rodgers 2011
Most seasons, 550+ pass attempts: 12, Tom Brady; 2002, 2007, 2009, 2011–2015, 2017–2020
Most games with at least 75% pass completion rate, season (minimum 20 attempts per game): 8, Tom Brady, 2007
Most games with at least 75% pass completion rate and no interceptions, season (minimum 20 attempts per game): 6, Tom Brady, 2007; Dak Prescott, 2016
Most seasons with at least 60% pass completion rate (minimum 100 attempts per season): 19, Tom Brady; 2001–2007, 2009–2020
Most seasons 2,000+ yards: 19, Tom Brady; 2001–2007, 2009–2020; Drew Brees, 2002–2020; Brett Favre, 1992–2010
Most seasons 2,500+ yards: 19, Tom Brady; 2001–2007, 2009–2020; Brett Favre, 1992–2010
Most seasons 3,000+ yards: 18, Tom Brady; 2002–2007, 2009–2020; Brett Favre, 1992–2009
Most seasons 3,500+ yards: 18, Tom Brady; 2002–2007 2009–2020
Most passing touchdowns, career:
Regular season: 581, Tom Brady, 2000–2020.[174]
Playoffs: 80, Tom Brady, 2002–2021.
Most games 1+ TD passes, career: 260, Tom Brady, 2000–2020.[175]
Most red zone touchdown passes: 383, Tom Brady
Most seasons, 20+ passing touchdowns: 18, Tom Brady, 2002–2007, 2009–2020[183]
Most seasons, 25+ passing touchdowns: 16, Tom Brady, 2002, 2004–2005, 2007, 2009–2020; Peyton Manning, 1998–2010, 2012–2014
Most seasons, 35+ passing touchdowns: 5, Tom Brady, 2007, 2010–2011, 2015, 2020; Aaron Rodgers, 2011–2012, 2014, 2016, 2020
Most consecutive uninterrupted games, 1+ passing touchdowns: 52, Tom Brady, 2010–2013
Most passing touchdowns, one quarter: 5, Tom Brady, Oct 18, 2009
Most games with 200+ yards passing and no interceptions, career: 123, Tom Brady, 2001–2019[194]
Most games with 200+ yards passing and no interceptions, season: 11, Tom Brady, 2012; Aaron Rodgers, 2014[195]
Most consecutive touchdowns, and no interceptions, home: 49, Aaron Rodgers[187]
Most games with 1+ touchdown passes and no interceptions, career: 134, Tom Brady, 2001–2019[196]
Most games with 1+ touchdown passes and no interceptions, season: 14, Tom Brady 2010[197]
Most consecutive games with 1+ touchdown passes and no interceptions: 11, Tom Brady, 2010
In 2007 Brady broke the single season passing TD record (50) which was held by Peyton Manning (48). It was later retaken by Manning.
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01-25-2021, 03:12 PM
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#105
Brady=MJ
Brady has the most touchdowns ever and his record will never be broken..Drew Brees was the only one who could beat it but he's retiring now
If Brady wins the Superbowl then its 100% chance hes the GOAT to even haters
he would beat all the top QB's (Brees,Rodgers,Mahomes) at age 43 winning his 7th superbowl
Brady has the most touchdowns ever and his record will never be broken..Drew Brees was the only one who could beat it but he's retiring now
If Brady wins the Superbowl then its 100% chance hes the GOAT to even haters
he would beat all the top QB's (Brees,Rodgers,Mahomes) at age 43 winning his 7th superbowl
01-25-2021, 03:21 PM
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#106
01-25-2021, 03:25 PM
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#107
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not gonna read through 4 pages of discussion so i may be repeating something someone else has said:
In terms of dominance and prowess, yeah brady is defo up there w/ jordan at this point.
However, he isnt, and never will be a cultural phenomenon like jordan was. the reason (and i say this as a brady fan) is because he literally has the charisma of a wax statue
In terms of dominance and prowess, yeah brady is defo up there w/ jordan at this point.
However, he isnt, and never will be a cultural phenomenon like jordan was. the reason (and i say this as a brady fan) is because he literally has the charisma of a wax statue
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01-25-2021, 03:25 PM
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#108
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Brady is not the athlete that Jordan was, or that many current QBs are, but he's the best motivator and leader to ever play sports. This intangible propels teams to greater levels of success than anyone else has ever experienced.
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01-25-2021, 03:30 PM
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#109
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tom brady isnt selling shoes
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01-25-2021, 03:39 PM
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#110
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Originally Posted By Ken-O⏩
At least you acknowledge this.So far, i havent seen any arguments favoring Brady, other than really being nitpicky about stuff, like HOF teammates at Jordan's side etc (as if Brady played with a bad franchise)
To me its really simple:
Who was a more all around dominant player at their respective sports, Jordan or Brady?
Who was more influential on their team's success, Jordan or Brady?
It really isnt a contest IMO, as clearly Jordan wins in both.I agree that no football player can be considered greater than Jordan simply because no football player can dominate all aspects of the sport, but a basketball player can.
This would be the equivalent of Brady intercepting the ball on the last minute and then making a hail mary pass on the next play. Simply cant happen
To me its really simple:
Who was a more all around dominant player at their respective sports, Jordan or Brady?
Who was more influential on their team's success, Jordan or Brady?
It really isnt a contest IMO, as clearly Jordan wins in both.I agree that no football player can be considered greater than Jordan simply because no football player can dominate all aspects of the sport, but a basketball player can.
This would be the equivalent of Brady intercepting the ball on the last minute and then making a hail mary pass on the next play. Simply cant happen
To me you have to remove that factor as you weigh their impact if that's the case. That's like asking two people to bake cookies but only giving one person the necessary ingredients and then saying that person won the contest.
Trying to evaluate them on the same scale is moot. So by saying Jordan was more influential to his team's success doesn't tell me much. By that criteria, Tiger Woods and Serena Williams are both greater than Michael Jordan because they account for 100% of their success... and no matter what Jordan does, there's no way he could have accounted for 100% of the Bulls success. He had teammates who were on the court and any way you tip it toward his favor those teammates had some level of impact, so it can never be 100% all him. Tiger and Serena it's 100% them because they're the only ones on the court/field.
So you see the fallacy in that thinking?
And I have to disagree on more dominant. Brady has doubled the amount of championship appearances of other QBs. Jordan didn't do that. Brady has more rings than any other player... again Jordan didn't do that. Both have more records than I can even summarize so I'm not going to bother trying. Brady also switched teams late in his career and has found great success. What did Jordan do on the Wizards again? Brady has done it for longer, another strike against Jordan.
None of this is a knock on Jordan. But the separation Brady has created from his peers on the football field is not something Jordan achieved on the court whether you like it or not.
I looked up some other numbers for fun
Brady ranks first in TDs (Jordan only ranks 5th in points)
Brady ranks 2nd in total offense... but will surpass Brees for first next year assuming Brees retires and Brady plays another year
Brady and Jordan ironically both rank 33rd in turnovers (I just found this one interesting that they tie... obviously playing more leads to more turnovers which is why they're both so high on their respective lists)
Brady's QBR has him ranked 7th (Jordan is ranked 5th in career win shares? Closest thing I could find to compare to the QBR)
Brady has played in 44 playoff games. Then next closest is 32 by Vinatieri. The next closest QB is 27 by Manning.
But let's put this into even better perspective
Brady has more conference championship game appearances than 28 other NFL franchises..... FRANCHISES
He has more playoff wins (32) than all but five franchises..... again FRANCHISES.
Brady has more wins in the playoffs than all but 5 franchises.... lmao.... And one of those 5 had to be NE no less (at least I assume so). That's ridiculous. Brady has surpassed being compared player by player and now is taking on entire franchises in the record books.
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01-25-2021, 03:52 PM
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#111
- nothingshocking
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Originally Posted By AlBHappy⏩
This is just an idiotic post.The Michael Jordan myth needs to die down. The Air Jordans and his dominance in the watered down, low offense 1990's. are overblown.
Is he the GOAT? Probably, but I'd rather have Bird, Magic and Lebron. Bird won 3 straight MVPs in a league with Magic, MJ, Dr. J, Moses Malone, Kareem, Isiah, Dominique Wilkins, Sidney Moncrief, Bernard King. The NBA was LOADED with players, and Larry was the greatest
BRB
Came in league in 1984,
Celtics won
85 Lakers won
86 scores 63 against Celtics and they LOSE that game Celtics win
87 Lakers win
88 Lakers
89 Pistons
90 Pistons
First 7 years in league his teams lose. All those teams went through a meat grinder in the playoffs. You'd watch a game and there are 8 Hall of famers on the floor.
MJ didn't. win until Larry's back gave out, Magic caught the High 5, Dr. J retired, and the Pistons with Isiah had their run. Who did Michael beat? Cleveland, Jazz, Lakers once but they were old. Knicks (they sucked)
Is he the GOAT? Probably, but I'd rather have Bird, Magic and Lebron. Bird won 3 straight MVPs in a league with Magic, MJ, Dr. J, Moses Malone, Kareem, Isiah, Dominique Wilkins, Sidney Moncrief, Bernard King. The NBA was LOADED with players, and Larry was the greatest
BRB
Came in league in 1984,
Celtics won
85 Lakers won
86 scores 63 against Celtics and they LOSE that game Celtics win
87 Lakers win
88 Lakers
89 Pistons
90 Pistons
First 7 years in league his teams lose. All those teams went through a meat grinder in the playoffs. You'd watch a game and there are 8 Hall of famers on the floor.
MJ didn't. win until Larry's back gave out, Magic caught the High 5, Dr. J retired, and the Pistons with Isiah had their run. Who did Michael beat? Cleveland, Jazz, Lakers once but they were old. Knicks (they sucked)
Michael Jordan at the start of his career with Orlando Wolridge and Brad Sellars couldn't Beat Showtime? they had 2 players of Jordan's caliber on the team - Magic and Kareem, then a perenial all star in James Worthy and defensive player of the year Michael Cooper?
He Couldn't beat the Celtics? Kevin McHale was better than anyone Jordan ever played with, and the Chief DJ and Ainge were pretty ****ing good.
So Jordan and a couple scrubbs couldn't beat a couple completely loaded teams that at the time were considered in the discussion of the best teams of all times?
No clue what you're saying about the pistons having their run... They literally beat the chit out of Jordan for a couple years then Bulls ended what would have been their run and went on a run of their own.
Put the loaded Bulls of the 90's up against the loaded Celtics and Lakers of the 80's.
Fuk the Pistons, they don't belong in the same conversation.
01-25-2021, 03:59 PM
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#112
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Originally Posted By SoutheastBeast1⏩
I don’t think it’s a fallacy, I do genuinely believe that Federer is a better GOAT at Tennis than TB at football. It’s much easier to evaluate as well.At least you acknowledge this.
To me you have to remove that factor as you weigh their impact if that's the case. That's like asking two people to bake cookies but only giving one person the necessary ingredients and then saying that person won the contest.
Trying to evaluate them on the same scale is moot. So by saying Jordan was more influential to his team's success doesn't tell me much. By that criteria, Tiger Woods and Serena Williams are both greater than Michael Jordan because they account for 100% of their success... and no matter what Jordan does, there's no way he could have accounted for 100% of the Bulls success. He had teammates who were on the court and any way you tip it toward his favor those teammates had some level of impact, so it can never be 100% all him. Tiger and Serena it's 100% them because they're the only ones on the court/field.
So you see the fallacy in that thinking?
And I have to disagree on more dominant. Brady has doubled the amount of championship appearances of other QBs. Jordan didn't do that. Brady has more rings than any other player... again Jordan didn't do that. Both have more records than I can even summarize so I'm not going to bother trying. Brady also switched teams late in his career and has found great success. What did Jordan do on the Wizards again? Brady has done it for longer, another strike against Jordan.
None of this is a knock on Jordan. But the separation Brady has created from his peers on the football field is not something Jordan achieved on the court whether you like it or not.
To me you have to remove that factor as you weigh their impact if that's the case. That's like asking two people to bake cookies but only giving one person the necessary ingredients and then saying that person won the contest.
Trying to evaluate them on the same scale is moot. So by saying Jordan was more influential to his team's success doesn't tell me much. By that criteria, Tiger Woods and Serena Williams are both greater than Michael Jordan because they account for 100% of their success... and no matter what Jordan does, there's no way he could have accounted for 100% of the Bulls success. He had teammates who were on the court and any way you tip it toward his favor those teammates had some level of impact, so it can never be 100% all him. Tiger and Serena it's 100% them because they're the only ones on the court/field.
So you see the fallacy in that thinking?
And I have to disagree on more dominant. Brady has doubled the amount of championship appearances of other QBs. Jordan didn't do that. Brady has more rings than any other player... again Jordan didn't do that. Both have more records than I can even summarize so I'm not going to bother trying. Brady also switched teams late in his career and has found great success. What did Jordan do on the Wizards again? Brady has done it for longer, another strike against Jordan.
None of this is a knock on Jordan. But the separation Brady has created from his peers on the football field is not something Jordan achieved on the court whether you like it or not.
When it comes to Jordan, it’s not as much about being only 5 players on the court as opposed to 20+ (which is a huge difference) but more than anything is about his involvement on the entirety of the game as opposed to just a few minutes per game. That’s what makes it an easy choice for me, both are the greatest at what they do, the thing is that Jordan did everything, and Brady didn’t.
Talent-wise, physically, skills, work ethic, mentality, all of those things go to Jordan IMO. If he had a rival Jordan would go at him all game and make it a 1 vs 1 if he could, he would go out of his way to prove he was better and make a point. Prove to everyone that he couldn’t be beaten, and he proved himself right every time. Brady would win but in a different way.
Brady has him maybe, MAYBE at intelligence but that’s it.
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01-25-2021, 04:26 PM
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#113
- GarthVader
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People also like to bring up the fact that Brady isn't as skilled or athletic as other QBs which is a total garbage take. Brady is a pocket passer and has arm strength and accuracy all over the field just like the others. He could always throw the deep ball but on the Patriots, for many years, he didn't have much of a deep threat to throw the ball too. Look at what he did with Randy Moss.
One thing Brady is the best at is stepping up INTO the pocket to deliver lasers to his receivers in the middle of the field or outside the numbers. Most QBs start to scramble the moment the feel a bit of pressure. Brady stays cool and moves within the pocket to deliver those lasers so Brady doesn't need to scramble. He's always been good at that.
Also, people forget that Brady is a 1K yard rusher on top of all that.
One thing Brady is the best at is stepping up INTO the pocket to deliver lasers to his receivers in the middle of the field or outside the numbers. Most QBs start to scramble the moment the feel a bit of pressure. Brady stays cool and moves within the pocket to deliver those lasers so Brady doesn't need to scramble. He's always been good at that.
Also, people forget that Brady is a 1K yard rusher on top of all that.
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01-25-2021, 07:15 PM
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#114
01-25-2021, 07:33 PM
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#115
- FrankCostanza
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mj is goat. keep in mind that tb takes paycuts to pay for a great d line. if he was paid like every other good qb there wouldn't be enough to pay for that kickass d line he's had all his career.
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01-25-2021, 07:40 PM
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#116
01-25-2021, 07:46 PM
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#117
- FrankCostanza
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in addition the goat quarterback is joe montana. joe has a perfect 4 for 4 super bowl win record.
more wins don't really mean a thing when you only win like 60% of the time.
more wins don't really mean a thing when you only win like 60% of the time.
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01-25-2021, 07:55 PM
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#118
- SmashinYoungVag
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Originally Posted By frezKo⏩
You’re really underestimating Jordan throughout this whole thread. Coaches were calling him the greatest they’d ever seen before he even played. Players were calling him black Jesus.Yes because missing the playoffs or losing in the wold card/divisional rouinds of the NFL playoffs are much worse than losing in the Super Bowl.
Who is this braindead ****git autist?
Who is this braindead ****git autist?
Brady couldn’t even get called the best quarterback in the league by the media when the media was so heavily biased for him
01-25-2021, 08:17 PM
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#119
- SmashinYoungVag
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Originally Posted By frezKo⏩
Not a hater. Brady’s got a great resume. Nobody ever said he didn’t. But in Brady’s prime he couldn’t hold peytons jock strap. But even for the sake of argument let’s say he was better than Peyton. The argument still exists.https://forum.obnoxiousbrutes.com/showt...hp?t=178969961
Relax there brady hater.
Without a question Jordan was better when he entered the NBA as a top 5 draft pick while Brady was the 6th rounder. No one expected Brady to be great which is what adds to his greatness. NFL analyst and players were debating who was the greatest QB of all time between Montana, Peyton, and brady in the late 2000's. Literally the biggest game of the season would be the Patriots vs Colts and by the time Brady won his 4th and 5th super bowl all conversation ended for the majority of NFL analysts and players. Everyone called Tom the GOAT.
I'm not underestimating Jordan at all. I think Jordan is the GOAT and no1 will even come close to touching him. Same with Gretzky in the NHL and Messi in soccer. Brady is just the GOAT for the time being until Mahomes career is over and we get to see how many super bowls he wins.
Relax there brady hater.
Without a question Jordan was better when he entered the NBA as a top 5 draft pick while Brady was the 6th rounder. No one expected Brady to be great which is what adds to his greatness. NFL analyst and players were debating who was the greatest QB of all time between Montana, Peyton, and brady in the late 2000's. Literally the biggest game of the season would be the Patriots vs Colts and by the time Brady won his 4th and 5th super bowl all conversation ended for the majority of NFL analysts and players. Everyone called Tom the GOAT.
I'm not underestimating Jordan at all. I think Jordan is the GOAT and no1 will even come close to touching him. Same with Gretzky in the NHL and Messi in soccer. Brady is just the GOAT for the time being until Mahomes career is over and we get to see how many super bowls he wins.
It’s flat out disrespectful to Jordan to compare him to any other basketball player, never mind one of his peers. He was that much better than everyone. ESPN and first take will compare him to Lebron for ratings and barbershop talk but nobody with even an IQ above 70 takes that argument seriously.
You can have an argument for Brady but there is 0 argument against Jordan. He’s basketballs goat
01-25-2021, 08:20 PM
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#120
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Originally Posted By SmashinYoungVag⏩
Pretty much this. Top 3 sportsman of all time IMONot a hater. Brady’s got a great resume. Nobody ever said he didn’t. But in Brady’s prime he couldn’t hold peytons jock strap. But even for the sake of argument let’s say he was better than Peyton. The argument still exists.
It’s flat out disrespectful to Jordan to compare him to any other basketball player, never mind one of his peers. He was that much better than everyone. ESPN and first take will compare him to Lebron for ratings and barbershop talk but nobody with even an IQ above 70 takes that argument seriously.
You can have an argument for Brady but there is 0 argument against Jordan. He’s basketballs goat
It’s flat out disrespectful to Jordan to compare him to any other basketball player, never mind one of his peers. He was that much better than everyone. ESPN and first take will compare him to Lebron for ratings and barbershop talk but nobody with even an IQ above 70 takes that argument seriously.
You can have an argument for Brady but there is 0 argument against Jordan. He’s basketballs goat
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