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Forum ยป "Calories In, Calories Out" is a gross over-simplification. Stop preaching that B.S.
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Thread: "Calories In, Calories Out" is a gross over-simplification. Stop preaching that B.S.

post 1551315471 05-11-2018, 01:43 PM
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#121
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The post implying that 'calories' affect the number on the scale no matter who you are or what you look like, and macro percentages from c/f/p affect the ratio of muscle to bodyweight and fat to bodyweight (or just muscle to fat) is completely accurate imo.

I have a short log to post for the spring cutter crew soon showing obesity to abs in a few month's span.
With bloodwork. Using PSMF and 99% of protein sources from whey.
It was a sweet ass experiment that I hope doesn't go to waste for new lifters.
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post 1551318321 05-11-2018, 02:24 PM
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#122
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Originally Posted By TheJediBrah⏩
It's like you're saying "winning games of football isn't about scoring more points than the other team, stop preaching that B.S." then going on to explain your suggestions of tactics that help you score more points than the other team.
Perfect sums up my feelings on this thread

Its not that I don't appreciate what OP's posting. He's not wrong. This discussion just entirely lacks focus and too many people use extreme examples that do nothing to illustrate their points
Training log: http://forum.obnoxiousbrutes.com/showthread.php?t=165829701
post 1551318571 05-11-2018, 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted By wesleysh21⏩
It works when your body responds normally to it. But many people have ate themselves into a different state...particularly insulin resistance. That's why whenever I'm helping a friend lose weight, or I'm coming off of a bulk myself, the first thing I address is the insulin. Once that's back to "normal" levels we can pick back up with calories in/calories out.

Cliffs
- The math isn't always as simple as it is for some
Totally agree, while bulking I love indulging in the GOAT insulin spikers known to man, Haribos, when cutting I do not use them. Of course healthier/cleaner foods will give you a more defined look both while bulking and cutting versus someone who bulks/cuts on junk food. Everyone has their own little spin on dieting, the true way is to find out how and what your OWN body reacts to then adjust and tinker from there.
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post 1551318631 05-11-2018, 02:30 PM
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I ignore the top 2 entirely.

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post 1551318731 05-11-2018, 02:32 PM
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So why do I lose weight when I eat less and workout more?? Including tons of nasty nasty carbs.
post 1551318741 05-11-2018, 02:32 PM
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it aint dat serious
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post 1551318761 05-11-2018, 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted By Luc1fer⏩
I ignore the top 2 entirely.

b-b-b-but the anabolic window.
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post 1551321321 05-11-2018, 03:18 PM
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Originally Posted By meenman83⏩
b-b-b-but the anabolic window.
๐•ฎ๐–๐–†๐–˜๐–Š ๐–† ๐–ˆ๐–๐–Š๐–ˆ๐•ถ, ๐–“๐–Š๐–›๐–Š๐–— ๐–ˆ๐–๐–†๐–˜๐–Š ๐–† ๐–‡๐–Ž๐–™๐–ˆ๐–

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post 1551321711 05-11-2018, 03:26 PM
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Before I started my diets I thought I could eat 2,200 calories of Pop tarts a day and lose weight, but I couldn't. Maybe someone else can, but I can't. Eating that much sugar just makes me hungrier.
post 1551323031 05-11-2018, 03:47 PM
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If you arent eating 5k cals per day, meals every 3h on the dot, waking up around 5am to get a meal in and go back to sleep you arent doing whatever it phucking takes srs except the last part maybe
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post 1551323351 05-11-2018, 03:54 PM
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Literally got my avi eating mcdonalds every day. Would eat candy before bed too. I don't think it matters much unless you are trying to get below 10-12% and i know some people who are like 8% and eat whatever.
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post 1551323391 05-11-2018, 03:54 PM
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What are you talking about OP?
Pussy is pussy, $20 is $20 and a calorie is a calorie.
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post 1551323521 05-11-2018, 03:56 PM
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Originally Posted By eod8989⏩
Literally got my avi eating mcdonalds every day. Would eat candy before bed too.
Good example of why eating x amount of cals from fastfood and candy isnt the same as eating the more classic bb meals
degenmaxx
post 1551347491 05-12-2018, 02:42 AM
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Originally Posted By Psychotropic⏩
I read this article and it doesn't give me a lot. They say there is ''substantial experimental evidence'' that changing macronutrient balance can cause weight loss i.e. more lost on a low-carb diet compared to a high-carb diet of the same calories. Now I don't have access to their other review article mentioned but I am really sceptical of the claim of substantial evidence. Most of these studies likely involve very low enrolments and difficulty controlling known variables like exercise and adherence to the diet. Maybe. Maybe I'm wrong though. I'd be keen if you could link other relevant stuff that is open access. I'm sceptical because the ''study'' they mention in this article involved 21 PEOPLE with 3 arms... so 7 in each of the arms. They even say that this studydemonstratedmetabolic advantage... and talk it up as being extremely well controlled. lolwut... it was a pilot study not even designed to answer the actual question. Really dumb to include this because it is 1) misleading 2) unscientific 3) reduces their own credibility 4) makes it obvious they are desperate to get their message/agenda out there 5) makes sceptical readers less likely to keep an open mind.


As for everything else you are right in a way

But all this study into hormones, etc just isn't that important. Obesity is a lifestyle. We don't need MORE scientific knowledge to know how not to get fat. We did it for millennia. Eat mostly natural foods - veggies, fruits, meat, dairy, etc. Actually exercise like we are meant to. It's fukn obvious that eating deep fried meals with 5L of coke every day makes us fat.
OP I'm quoting my post because I put some effort into reading your link and I'm actually curious if you have anything to add on this metabolic advantage idea
post 1551351001 05-12-2018, 05:38 AM
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i eat everything and anything
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post 1551351121 05-12-2018, 05:44 AM
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Idk it has worked for me for over 3 years (both for cutting and bulking)
Peaked at 204 lbs @ 16% BF and lowest at 180 @ around 8%
If the shoe fits wear it.
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post 1551351131 05-12-2018, 05:45 AM
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b-b-b-bbut muh clean eating
post 1551360831 05-12-2018, 10:41 AM
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Originally Posted By Psychotropic⏩
OP I'm quoting my post because I put some effort into reading your link and I'm actually curious if you have anything to add on this metabolic advantage idea
Well that study definitely (like most) tries to claim more than what is really happening. It really depends on the individual and when it comes to obesity. Leptin resistance is a real struggle for a lot of people that CICO doesn't factor in.

What is leptin?
Leptin is a hormone that is produced by the body's fat cells. It is often referred to as the "satiety hormone" or the "starvation hormone." Leptin's primary target is in the brain, particularly an area called the hypothalamus. Leptin is supposed to tell the brain that we have enough fat stored, that we don't need to eat, and that we can burn calories at a normal rate. It also has many other functions related to fertility, immunity, brain function and others.

However, leptin's main role is long-term regulation of energy balance... the amount of calories we eat and expend, and how much fat we store on our bodiesThese days, leptin is very effective at keeping us from starving. But something is broken in the mechanism that is supposed to prevent us from overeating.

The way leptin works is relatively simple...This hormone is produced by the body's fat cells. The more body fat they carry, the more leptin they produce. Leptin is carried by the bloodstream and into the brain, where it sends a signal to the hypothalamus... the brain area that controls when and how much we eat. The fat cells use leptin to "tell" the brain how much body fat they carry. Lots of leptin tells the brain that we have plenty of fat stored, while low levels of leptin tell the brain that fat stores are low and that we are at risk of starvation.

Leptin Resistance May Be The Main Biological Abnormality in Obesity

People who are obese have a lot of body fat in their fat cells. Because fat cells produce leptin in proportion to their size, obese people also have very high levels of leptin. Given the way leptin is supposed to work, these people shouldn't be eating... their brain should know that they have plenty of energy stored.

However... the problem is that the leptin signal isn't working.There's a whole ton of leptin floating around, but the brain doesn't "see" that it is there. This condition is known as leptin resistance. It is now believed to be the main biological abnormality in human obesity. When the brain doesn't receive the leptin signal, it erroneously thinks that the body is starving, even though it has more than enough energy stored.

This makes the brain change our physiology and behavior in order to regain the fat that the brain thinks we're missing:

1Eating more: The brain thinks that we MUST eat so that we don't starve to death.
2Reduced energy expenditure: The brain thinks we need to conserve energy, so it makes us feel lazier and makes us burn fewer calories at rest.
3In this way... eating more and exercising less is not the cause of weight gain, it is the consequence of leptin resistance, a hormonal defecthttps://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16932334

For the great majority of people, trying to exert cognitive inhibition (willpower) over the leptin-driven starvation signal is next to impossible.

So what do we do now? CICO and IIFYM...call it a day...It's not that easy.

A key to preventing (or reversing) leptin resistance, is reducing diet-induced inflammation.

Article on diet-induced inflammation here:https://www.docsopinion.com/2013/08/...-inflammation/

There are several things you can do:

Avoid processed food: Highly processed foods may compromise the integrity of the gut and drive inflammation.
Eat soluble fiber: Eating soluble fiber can help improve gut health and may protect against obesity.
Exercise: Physical activity may help to reverse leptin resistance.
Sleep: Poor sleep has been implicated in problems with leptin.
Lower your triglycerides: Having high blood triglycerides can prevent the transport of leptin from blood and into the brain.The best way to lower triglycerides is to reduce carbohydrate intake.
Eat protein: Eating plenty of protein can cause automatic weight loss. There are many reason for that, one of them may be an improvement in leptin sensitivity

So my question to you now....do you really think studying into the hormones is still not important?...
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post 1551361091 05-12-2018, 10:50 AM
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#139
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Originally Posted By SkinnyBeast24⏩
west field philadelphia, born and raised
And just to be clear, I'm not saying CICO is useless. It's not. It's what I use for all my clients b/c I want to make it as simple as possible. But there is more to it then that when it comes to looking at hormones in the body ...leptin being one of them. Very obese individuals require a different path than simply CICO. It's a starting point but you should still be able to explain what else is happening and why their bodies respond in a certain way compared to your average joe.

I don't preach any specific diet. Whatever works for you. Stick to it. It's that simple. But when using CICO, understanding the QUALITY of how you fit those macronutrients and the role it could/couldn't have on hormones must be factored in as well. That's where I'm going with this.

You can look at certain anatomical sites when doing skin-fold measurements and based on where an individual is holding fat can also tell you a lot too..

High abdominal skinfold (belly fat)
This could indicate high cortisol and stress levels
Potential intervention - cortisol suppression and stress control
Potential strategy - Frequent protein meals, adequate sleep, supplement with BCAAs and practice stress-reduction techniques

High suprailiac skinfold (love handles)
This could indicate that you may have large insulin release with meals
Potential intervention - control carb intake
Potential strategy - Reduce carbohydrate intake and use nutrient timing strategies

High subscapular skin fold (upper back)
This could indicate you have poor insulin sensitivity
Potential intervention - boost insulin sensitivity
Potential strategy - supplement with fish oils and R-ALA

High chest skinfold:
This could indicate low testosterone
Potential intervention - support testosterone levels
Potential strategy - Ensure adequate calorie intake and adequate dietary fat

High triceps and thigh skinfolds
This could indicate high estrogen
Potential intervention - reduce estrogen levels
Potential strategy - increase exercise volume, add cruciferous veggies, discuss any prescription estrogens with your doctor


tl'dr

For example, if someone is losing fat from their thighs but not from their abdomen (belly), it may indicate an excess of the stress hormone cortisol. Alternatively, if someone is losing fat from the abdominal region but not from the subscapular (upper back) or suprailiac (love handles) areas, it may indicate a problem with carbohydrate tolerance. Or, if someone is losing fat from the abdominal area and suprailliac area but not in the thighs or triceps, this may indicate an excess of the hormone estrogen.

These are all potential correlations, again the science is very new. But I do believe there is merit to it.
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post 1551361511 05-12-2018, 11:01 AM
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#140
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More on where one stores fat. Again, nothing is solid here. It's very interesting. CICO wouldn't help you here. It would be a step in the creation of a diet but many other important factors to consider.

So what is your hormonal state?
To a certain degree, you can look in the mirror and determine what your hormonal state is by identifying the different fat storage patterns on your body.

Love Handles
If you have love handles or would describe yourself as Apple shaped, you are likely to be a strong insulin secreter with naturally high levels of insulin. If you have this body type and wish to lose weight, you should avoid foods that cause large rises in insulin such as sugar, white bread and pasta. Apple shapes also tend to store visceral fat (around the organs) which you canโ€™t see but is the worst kind of fat you can have. Donโ€™t be disheartened if youโ€™re not seeing instant or fast results when losing weight as youโ€™re most likely burning this fat too โ€“ but thatโ€™s definitely a good thing!

Large Thighs
Excess storage of fat in the lower body may be a result of oestrogen levels being too high. Avoiding exogenous oestrogen sources like eating from plastics, soy products, milk, and even coffee could be beneficial for these types. Pear shapes tend to store fat on thighs and hips, so if youโ€™re this body type then introduce strength training to your workouts in order to maximise weight loss all day long.

Excess Stomach Fat
This may be caused by excess cortisol levels and decreased levels of progesterone in women. As you may know, cortisol is a stress hormone so working to lower your stress levels by doing exercises such as yoga and meditation could help you lose the stubborn fat on your stomach as well as HIIT training and weights.

Back Of Arms
Higher amounts of tricep fat for women may indicate low testosterone levels as well as excess insulin. Testosterone?! I hear you cry โ€“ yes women have it too and too low levels can cause tricep fat. Eating avocados and oily fish such as salmon can help, whilst avoiding red meat and dairy products. Building muscle through weight lifting can also increase testosterone levels and help to combat this.

Upper Back Fat
Dreaded back fat is said to be due to high levels of insulin and low levels of Thyroxine, a thyroid hormone that has a role in your metabolism and calorie burning rate. Back fat is an indicator that this hormone isnโ€™t being produced enough but by eating foods such as shellfish, seafood and dark leafy green vegetables like kale and spinach we can naturally boost these levels.

Cankles
This may be due to a lack of growth hormone which is usually released during sleep. Make sure you are getting a good nightโ€™s sleep and remove any distractions before bed to ensure you drift off!

Source 1:http://www.yourweightlossaid.com/hor...g-weight-gain/

Source 2:https://www.metaboliceffect.com/horm...at-signatures/
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post 1551362791 05-12-2018, 11:23 AM
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#141
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Originally Posted By SkinnyBeast24⏩
The bottom line is this

Different calorie sources can have vastly different effects on hunger, hormones, energy expenditure and the brain regions that control food intake.

Even though calories are important, counting them or even being consciously aware of them is not at all necessary to lose weight.

In many cases, simple changes in food selection can lead to the same or better results than restricting your calorie intake.

My biggest issue with CICOis that people use it as an excuse to still eat whatever they want as long as IIFYM. This works for many trained individuals. They know their bodies. They know their goals. For the general population, CICO isn't enough. It's a start...but you have to address body composition which CICO doesn't.

To get an overweight/obese individual to REALLY change and make it a lifestyle. You need to go in depth from the beginning. You can't sugar coat and preach CICO. You need to focus on the quality of what they are eating and not worry as much about the #'s. You can focus on that later. The goal is recomposition. Getting them to understand what the training is doing. Having the right answers to why they may have not lost weight. They are in that wierd stage where they can lose fat, but gain muscle. We all know this doesn't last forever.
That is my problem with CICO for the general population. You have to go deeper. Stop making it easy. They already took the easy way out and they are now obese and can't walk up the stairs. You educate them. You go deeper. It shows you care. Etc.
strongly disagree there. Teach them by layering topics in as progress is made, over explaining **** in the beginning makes people give up before they even get started. "This is too complicated."
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post 1551363481 05-12-2018, 11:38 AM
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#142
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Originally Posted By AriesTH⏩
strongly disagree there. Teach them by layering topics in as progress is made, over explaining **** in the beginning makes people give up before they even get started. "This is too complicated."
Depends how you explain. I'm not saying I sit down for 30 minutes. I'll spend 5 minutes each session addressing the nutrition. What did you weigh this week? Are you tracking every day or a set # of days as 7 is probably too hard to start, etc.? Some clients like the extra information. Personal training is expensive as **** so I'm gonna give them the full 50-60/hr or whatever they are paying experience.

I'll even flat out say. You're paying me a lot for this hour so why bust your ass 2-3 times a week with me and then **** off for the other 165-166 hours of the week. It's a waste of both our time. Every client (so far) has appreciated that.
Bench 315x1 - Squat 415x1 - Deadlift 515x1 Total = 1,245

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post 1551365341 05-12-2018, 12:16 PM
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#143
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Lepton resistance may exist in some tiny fraction of the population, but leveraging conditions like this to excuse/rationalize lack of discipline and laziness is wrong.

If anything you should be arguing that IQ, discipline and ability to delay gratification has a genetic factor that results in obesity.

There are always exceptions from a general rule. In my real life experience, people are simply lazy and lack discipline and donโ€™t want to make sacrifices in the short term.
๐•ฎ๐–๐–†๐–˜๐–Š ๐–† ๐–ˆ๐–๐–Š๐–ˆ๐•ถ, ๐–“๐–Š๐–›๐–Š๐–— ๐–ˆ๐–๐–†๐–˜๐–Š ๐–† ๐–‡๐–Ž๐–™๐–ˆ๐–

โ–ˆโ–“โ–’โ–’โ–‘โ–‘๐ŸงตMake trolls invisible: https://forum.obnoxiousbrutes.com/showthread.php?t=180234573 โ–‘โ–‘โ–’โ–’โ–“โ–ˆ
post 1551366421 05-12-2018, 12:38 PM
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#144
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agreed, 700 kcal of alcohol everyday for bulking purposes will **** u
post 1551366491 05-12-2018, 12:39 PM
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#145
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Originally Posted By Luc1fer⏩
Lepton resistance may exist in some tiny fraction of the population
Never heard of lepton resistance. Must be some pretty extreme form of matter brah.
post 1551367301 05-12-2018, 12:52 PM
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#146
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Originally Posted By wincel⏩
Never heard of lepton resistance. Must be some pretty extreme form of matter brah.
Ghosts have it.
๐•ฎ๐–๐–†๐–˜๐–Š ๐–† ๐–ˆ๐–๐–Š๐–ˆ๐•ถ, ๐–“๐–Š๐–›๐–Š๐–— ๐–ˆ๐–๐–†๐–˜๐–Š ๐–† ๐–‡๐–Ž๐–™๐–ˆ๐–

โ–ˆโ–“โ–’โ–’โ–‘โ–‘๐ŸงตMake trolls invisible: https://forum.obnoxiousbrutes.com/showthread.php?t=180234573 โ–‘โ–‘โ–’โ–’โ–“โ–ˆ
post 1551370541 05-12-2018, 01:54 PM
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#147
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Originally Posted By Luc1fer⏩
I ignore the top 2 entirely.

People like to obsess over over the top ones and to somehow make out it totally invalids that bottom ones or use it as COPE.
If you can't handle me when I'm incel, you don't deserve me when I'm chad
post 1551371081 05-12-2018, 02:09 PM
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#148
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I think its GREAT to be open minded. Also I dont think the OP is wrong but for the majority of HEALTHY people who are young or younger they dont have this problem but I do believe that EVERYTHING that humans think about want things to BE as EASY and NON-COMPLICATED as possible meaning, it IS more complex than Calories in Calories out at times but binging is a sure fire way to gain a hell of alot of weight aka fat.
Distraction is an obstruction for the construction.

The Korova milkbar sold milk-plus, milk plus vellocet or synthemesc or drencrom, which is what we were drinking. This would sharpen you up and make you ready for a bit of the old ultraviolence.

Kakarot!
post 1551389101 05-12-2018, 08:37 PM
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#149
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Originally Posted By SkinnyBeast24⏩
Well that study definitely (like most) tries to claim more than what is really happening. It really depends on the individual and when it comes to obesity. Leptin resistance is a real struggle for a lot of people that CICO doesn't factor in.

........

So my question to you now....do you really think studying into the hormones is still not important?...
Mate I'm trying to have a conversation and you keep copy-pasting slabs of text

Research into neurohormones may absolutely turn out to be useful (e.g. drug therapy) but am I wrong in saying it has zero clinical relevance atm? The advice to fat people is largely the same - eat healthy with the right energy consumption and exercise. Surgery maybe for very obese and cognitive behavioural therapy for others. Other advice like 'get enough sleep' is common sense.

You may think you're fine-tuning hormone systems with individualised advice (post #140) but it's broscience. Nothing wrong with a bit of broscience bro... just call it what it is.
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