Depends on caloric needs. Anyone that does a 1200cal surplus doesn't know what he's doing... Regardless of macro split, it's irrelevant at that point.

The rest comes down to individuality. More insulin resistant and more insulin sensitive people respond diferently to foods and should adjust their diet accordingly. And that's what people need to understand.

Never giving up carbs, but have begun to eat them in more moderation ie with meals and usually only 1-2 times a day

And lol if I’m giving up cinnamon rolls...

So you are confident in saying that if someone eats 1200 calories above in a surpluss of protein VS of carbohydrates Vs of fats, the results will be the same? That the body will process excess protein the same as excess carbohydrates and excess fat?

If thats really what you believe you have A LOT to learn and a lot of research to read. We wont even get into digestive supplements such as ALA, Digestive enzymes, Berberine, etc... which can dispose of excess macronutrients.

Natural guys doing 1200cal surplusses are dumb, period. There's no point.

Yes it's different (metabolic pathways, thermic effect, etc) but if you think doing that kind of surplus makes any sense i'm sorry, you're the one that has a lot to read and learn. There's no point in discussing better or worse, there's no need and no point in going that way. Sorry.

But you literally just said its different because of metabolic pathways, thermic effect, etc.... how can you say then it is also "no point in discussing better or worse"? Why on earth would you not want to take those into account for how you calculate your macros?

Do you aim for a 1200cal surplus? I don't. Never did. And don't know anyone who did. It's a bad recipe to begin with, shouldn't be an option even. No point in making it the best case scenario, it's illogical

yes people assume that the excess carbs and fats you eat go into nothing, carbs get stored as liver fat, fats well just get stored as fat, and when u gain fat it cause all sort of health problems, oxidation damage, hormones go imbalanced excess test-estr conversion leptin insulin resistance,

theres a bit of a thermogenic affect from eating protein. other than that, yes will be the same.

no possible way srs

anecdotally, the only thing that matters for me regarding getting more or less fat is fat intake.

i've had periods of really low fat intake where i drank an incredible amount of beer calories per week and was totally weight stable for months

glucose and acetate from ethanol are hardly converted to fats

there was never any reason for that pathway to develop much during our evolution

carbs and alcohol stop fat burning and the fat that's eaten gets stored to a greater extent

if there's no fat intake, it hardly has an effect

all of the keto fatties who blame carbs for being fat are being intellectually dishonest about just how much fat they were eating

they count the pizza as a carb-heavy meal and ignore that they ate 100g of fat in that one meal alone

you're right and it makes me rage when people call chit like cake, cookies, brownies, macaroni and cheese, chocolate etc fckin "carb meals"

if in the example of pasta there's 2 grams of carbs for every gram of fat and pretend theres no protein here to keep things simple you eat 300g you're getting900calories from fat and800for carbs

and for things like sweets especially cookies brownies icecream etc its closer if not a 1:1 ratio of fat to carbs. So 300g of that chit = 200g of fat and 100g of carbs

so those fat fcks are eating 1800 calories of fat and 400 calories of carbs, sounds like a lot but go look up how much is in a tub of icecream and ask an honest fat friend if they've cleared one once or twice in the past week.

no carbs comes from the brobodybuilding community who exercise for 1 hour, then lay down and rot all day because of no energy being entirely reliant on stimulants to get anything done.

high level athletes all eat tons of carbs.

its just the latest fad diet for $$. And lazy people who want to get results by sitting around all day eat it up. better results from an active lifestyle that has you eating carbs.

Will try to increase water intake, thou I thought I already do plenty. Repped.

I used to be in this comment, and I don't like it

I've done overeating experiments on keto, If I kept the fat at 90% or higher, I did not gain any bodyfat.
Right now, I am eating high carb (400-1k/day) low fat (30-70g) and mod protein (a pound of meat, the rest from starches so 100g+) and I have yet to gain body fat even tough I overeat on carb some day.

Back in the day when I did a balanced diet, I gained the exact amount of weight the calculator told me I would If I ate at a 300, 400, or 500 calorie surplus.Yeah do it, it was the hardest part of the adaption for me. To find the right ratio of water and sodium.

Remember to salt your food as you will be pissing more

salt is stupid underappreciated by people cause they're scared of "water weight"

since gyms are opening back up here im back to getting my diet in check and eating a little above maintenance and first thing I eat in the morning is about 30g of protein from chicken and then 600 cals of oatmeal with about 4-5g's of salt in it. It was actually tony huge that convinced me to up the hell out of my salt intake prior to lifting and for the rest of the day keep it low and use potassium salt and the difference is insane to the point I feel like im wasting my time lifting without a shot of salt before the gym now. Swear you can push to failure harder and you can feel a difference in muscle contractions with more salt

Im cruising up on 47...Im strict keto and I still lift heavy. I look like .0001% of the population for my age.

Im not anti-carb because I have been successful eating carbs in the past.....but the idea thats been expressed in this thread that you need carbs to have a good physic is simply not true. Some of the most ripped and jacked people I know are on Keto AF (hybrid keto).

they might be now but it isn't how they ate to develop their physique in the first place and i'll bet everything I own on that

Of course - Keto hasnt been a trend/fad but just for the last 5 years or so. The odds are their physique is the result of numerous diets that didnt follow any single methodology.. I've been lifting for 25 years and the methodology and the diets have had huge swings regarding what is "right" to do and to eat. I've been on dozens of diets over the years that were supposed to be the "golden ticket"...

It appears you are making the assumption that people on keto physique arent improving/gaining, however. Im living proof that that is a fallacy. My measurements and strength metrics show that I am gaining. My future physique will be better and is better than it was 6 months ago. Growth would seem to be the fundamental basics of building a sold foundation..

If I did start keto 25 years ago would my physique be better than it is today...no one knows. Im headed in the right directions and that would seem to be "proof of the pudding"...

here's my point

you can progress on keto sure, but take 2 twins and make them do the exact same lifting routine and exact same caloric surplus and equate protein. One eat <30g of carbs a day the other <30g of fats a day. I can with 100% confidence tell you who will end up stronger and put on more size in a years time.

Ignoring everything else glycogen is our muscles #1 preffered energy source and on top of this no carbs increases cortisol in the body. So ignoring the benefit of better power output and muscle contractions as well as the benefit of preferential storage the diet that has a major negative impact on cortisol is by default worse for growth. Keto is great for distance runners because they aren't worried about growth or strength, they're worried about endurance and keto provides more stable blood sugar levels in long distance events without causing someone to go bunk. Carbohydrate intake helps in numerous ways with muscle growth and its the hormonal impact as well as the performance benefits. Another factor not appreciated here is the inflammation of muscles, you aren't getting close to the same level of inflammation on keto as you are a high or medium carb diet, inflammation is a major key for growth and is one of the reasons advil and cold baths after lifting have been shown to hinder hypertrophy to an extreme extent. And lowering inflammation is one of the reasons keto is so beneficial health wise for so many.

And tell me if this is true, since you shaped up your diet by going for keto you've also started paying a lot more attention to your lifting, calorie and protein intake versus what you were doing prior. Of course you're seeing better results by caring more. And age is a factor here too don't get me wrong on that, I don't know your body comp but with age comes insulin resistance so you eating carbs is a completely different ball game than me eating them.

What carbs do you eat to hit those numbers?