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» Unconditional cash transfers reduce homelessness
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post 1689282853 08-31-2023, 01:23 PM
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How much money has been spent on the war in Ukraine?
post 1689283703 08-31-2023, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted By J.L.C.
How much money has been spent on the war in Ukraine?
California has wasted $7b of taxpayers money on the homeless so far. Liberals have made themselves very, very rich thanks to the middle class in California
Scubastevo :-What percentage of women have STDs? (serious) If I just wanted to go bareback with any girl that I could get with, what are my chances of ending up bed ridden with STDs?
post 1689283833 08-31-2023, 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted By J.L.C.
How much money has been spent on the war in Ukraine?
And now you’re making a strawman.
One party system; Most Republicans are Democrats, but no Democrats are Republicans.
Hayek and Mises were right; they're all socialists.
"To Call something fair or unfair is a subjective value judgment and not liable to any verification" Ludwig Von Mises
post 1689284083 08-31-2023, 01:44 PM
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Originally Posted By Kraken
And now you’re making a strawman.
No, not really.

Do you think money spent on interventionist military strategies might be better spent within the country?

Could the financial aid sent overseas help if spent within the country?
post 1689284323 08-31-2023, 01:48 PM
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Originally Posted By J.L.C.
No, not really.

Do you think money spent on interventionist military strategies might be better spent within the country?

Could the financial aid sent overseas help if spent within the country?
Does that make the study any more viable? Is the money going to Ukraine magical or somehow spend differently than money going someplace else?

There are vast amounts of studies that show the source of the money has an impact on how it is spent, but it is still coming from the government, which means it doesn't make a difference. It still fits into the same category of spending.
One party system; Most Republicans are Democrats, but no Democrats are Republicans.
Hayek and Mises were right; they're all socialists.
"To Call something fair or unfair is a subjective value judgment and not liable to any verification" Ludwig Von Mises
post 1689284643 08-31-2023, 01:55 PM
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#126
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Originally Posted By Kraken
Does that make the study any more viable? Is the money going to Ukraine magical or somehow spend differently than money going someplace else?

There are vast amounts of studies that show the source of the money has an impact on how it is spent, but it is still coming from the government, which means it doesn't make a difference. It still fits into the same category of spending.
Okay.

One criticism of this study put forth was that it didn't include a lot of people or go on for several years.

Doing either or both of those things would require additional funding.

Couldn't money sent as aid to other countries be used to try this combination approach within the country?

Is it preferable for tax payers' money to leave the country rather than spent within their borders?
post 1689284773 08-31-2023, 01:56 PM
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#127
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Originally Posted By benedetto27
Sending money to people who aren’t mentally deranged drug addicts and drunks but just are finding it hard to make ends meet in a place where rent is $3,000 on average for a 1 bedroom box…will help some of them actually make rent.

Wow, mind blowing.
This. This is the problem with the "study". The screened for drug use, alcohol use, and mental health.
We screened 732 participants from 22 shelters from four shelter organizations across Metro Vancouver. Our preregistered screening criteria were: age 19 to 65, homeless for less than 2 y (homelessness defined as the lack of stable housing), Canadian citizen or permanent resident, and nonsevere levels of substance use (DAST-10) (21), alcohol use (AUDIT) (22), and mental health symptoms Colorado Symptom Index (CSI) (23) based on predefined thresholds (see SI Appendix, Table S1 in SI Appendix, section 1.3.2). These screening criteria were used to reduce any potential risks of harm (e.g., overdose) from the cash transfer. To ensure accurate responses, the screening survey was conducted under a cover story without any mention of the cash transfer. Of the 732 participants, 229 passed all criteria (31%). Due to loss of contact with 114 participants despite our repeated attempts to reach them, we successfully enrolled 115 participants in the study as the final sample (50 cash, 65 noncash; see Table 1). The sample size was modest but was nonetheless adequately powered to detect statistically significant effects from the preregistered power analysis (SI Appendix, section 1.1).
Only 30% passed their criteria.
You don't have to be great to start, but you have to start to be great.
post 1689284843 08-31-2023, 01:58 PM
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#128
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Originally Posted By litljay
This. This is the problem with the "study". The screened for drug use, alcohol use, and mental health.
Why is screening for clear confounders a problem in a controlled trial?
post 1689285293 08-31-2023, 02:06 PM
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#129
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Originally Posted By isingmodel
That's now, after their strategy worked. They had over 20,000 homeless people in the 1980s, with a then population of 4.7 million (around 0.42%).

California today has around 170k homeless with a population of 40 million, also around 0.42%. Proportionally identical to Finland before they came up with a solution.

Numbers might be difficult for retards, but this isn't an excuse for such poor attempts at reasoning.
How much more ney have you given to the homeless? Oh wait, you're a socialist, you'd rather use someone else's money.....
post 1689285333 08-31-2023, 02:07 PM
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#130
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Originally Posted By J.L.C.
How much money has been spent on the war in Ukraine?
And now we're deflecting......
post 1689285443 08-31-2023, 02:10 PM
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#131
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Originally Posted By Dave22reborn
And now we're deflecting......
You are?
post 1689288923 08-31-2023, 03:10 PM
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Originally Posted By J.L.C.
Okay.

One criticism of this study put forth was that it didn't include a lot of people or go on for several years.

Doing either or both of those things would require additional funding.

Couldn't money sent as aid to other countries be used to try this combination approach within the country?

Is it preferable for tax payers' money to leave the country rather than spent within their borders?
How about we just keep our own money and are not taxed it?
post 1689289153 08-31-2023, 03:14 PM
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#133
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Originally Posted By J.L.C.
Okay.

One criticism of this study put forth was that it didn't include a lot of people or go on for several years.

Doing either or both of those things would require additional funding.

Couldn't money sent as aid to other countries be used to try this combination approach within the country?

Is it preferable for tax payers' money to leave the country rather than spent within their borders?
America has already attempted many social experiments that are almost exactly the same and they almost all failed. Why should we support yet another that we know has a very high chance of not only failing, but creating unintended and opposite outcomes?

in the words of Hayek “You have to know what can go right before you can know what can go wrong”. In other words, you want to do a social experiment that contradicts what we know works, and have a pretty good idea of what can go wrong.
One party system; Most Republicans are Democrats, but no Democrats are Republicans.
Hayek and Mises were right; they're all socialists.
"To Call something fair or unfair is a subjective value judgment and not liable to any verification" Ludwig Von Mises
post 1689289213 08-31-2023, 03:15 PM
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#134
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Originally Posted By ThePD
How about we just keep our own money and are not taxed it?
That's a view some hold. I think maintaining a cohesive society would be challenging under that system.

Anarchy and communism are more similar than they are different, imo.

Both would require evolution in human nature to be tenable, imo.
post 1689289333 08-31-2023, 03:17 PM
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#135
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Originally Posted By Kraken
America has already attempted many social experiments that are almost exactly the same and they almost all failed. Why should we support yet another that we know has a very high chance of not only not working, but creating unintended and opposite outcomes?

in the words of Hayek “You have to know what can go right before you can know what can go wrong”. In other words, you want to do a social experiment that contradicts what we know works, and based on what we have a pretty good idea of what can go wrong.
Fair enough.

You are not alone in feeling your tax dollars are better spent on social programs and/or military support in other nations than at home.
post 1689289553 08-31-2023, 03:21 PM
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#136
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Originally Posted By J.L.C.
Fair enough.

You are not alone in feeling your tax dollars are better spent on social programs and/or military support in other nations than at home.
This again? Why do you keep making strawmans and projecting? Do you get paid to troll?
One party system; Most Republicans are Democrats, but no Democrats are Republicans.
Hayek and Mises were right; they're all socialists.
"To Call something fair or unfair is a subjective value judgment and not liable to any verification" Ludwig Von Mises
post 1689289973 08-31-2023, 03:29 PM
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#137
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Originally Posted By Kraken
This again? Why do you keep making strawmans and projecting? Do you get paid to troll?
I responded to your rejection of the idea of prioritizing within-nation spending over foreign support

I don't see much direct ROI of foreign aid for middle class citizens.

You suggested you know what works for homelessness, but haven't yet shared the solution.
post 1689290153 08-31-2023, 03:33 PM
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#138
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Originally Posted By J.L.C.
The study didn't include addicts.
Originally Posted By Polaris
That seems rather convenient.
...
post 1689290403 08-31-2023, 03:36 PM
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#139
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Originally Posted By J.L.C.
I responded to your rejection of the idea of prioritizing within-nation spending over foreign support
This is a total lie, where did he say that he rejects this on the grounds of wanting money spent on foreign support?
post 1689290483 08-31-2023, 03:37 PM
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#140
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Originally Posted By J.L.C.
I responded to your rejection of the idea of prioritizing within-nation spending over foreign support
You're so biased you have no idea where you went wrong in the argument. You literally created an argument out of thin air.
One party system; Most Republicans are Democrats, but no Democrats are Republicans.
Hayek and Mises were right; they're all socialists.
"To Call something fair or unfair is a subjective value judgment and not liable to any verification" Ludwig Von Mises
post 1689290653 08-31-2023, 03:41 PM
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#141
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Originally Posted By Polaris
...
Stratifying a controlled trial over the various categories of addiction and mental illness would require many more participants, which would be challenging due to attrition and cost, or it would be very difficult to achieve sufficient power.

Experimental design is tricky, but has advantages over observational or quasi-experimental designs.
post 1689290693 08-31-2023, 03:42 PM
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#142
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Originally Posted By Kraken
You're so biased you have no idea where you went wrong in the argument. You literally created an argument out of thin air.
Okay.

Are you willing to share the homelessness solution to which you referred?
post 1689290703 08-31-2023, 03:42 PM
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#143
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Originally Posted By J.L.C.
You are?
You're trying to use Ukraine as an example? Despite the fact that so many of us are against the aid being sent there?
post 1689290843 08-31-2023, 03:44 PM
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#144
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Originally Posted By J.L.C.
That's a view some hold. I think maintaining a cohesive society would be challenging under that system.

Anarchy and communism are more similar than they are different, imo.

Both would require evolution in human nature to be tenable, imo.
How would an individual stand out under communism? Where would be the passion to do better under communism? What would be the reward? Since everyone is allegedly equal?
post 1689290893 08-31-2023, 03:46 PM
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Originally Posted By Dave22reborn
How would an individual stand out under communism? Where would be the passion to do better under communism? What would be the reward? Since everyone is allegedly equal?
Do you feel that's different under anarchism?
post 1689291013 08-31-2023, 03:48 PM
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Originally Posted By Dave22reborn
You're trying to use Ukraine as an example? Despite the fact that so many of us are against the aid being sent there?
Maybe that's why I'm using it as an example?
post 1689291103 08-31-2023, 03:49 PM
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Originally Posted By TheJimmyRustler
This is a total lie, where did he say that he rejects this on the grounds of wanting money spent on foreign support?
He rejected what I proposed in defense of the status quo.
post 1689292273 08-31-2023, 04:11 PM
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#148
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Originally Posted By J.L.C.
Okay.

Are you willing to share the homelessness solution to which you referred?
The least amount of homelessness and inequality has come from capitalism.

The argument from the socialist is always "well it isn't zero". But the capitalist argues "it is the least of any other system". What we do know, is that absolute arguments have no place in societal issues. You will never have zero crime. You will never have zero poverty, you will never have zero homelessness.

This means that the only thing that we know that works so far, is capitalism. And then we have to dive into what is it about capitalism that works. This is where things become difficult, because if there are fundamental values that have not been imprinted in you, fundamentally, they become very difficult to understand, which leads to disbelief.

By far the easiest author to understand would be Thomas Sowell. He gets straight to the point, and makes you understand that things are not as clear as what you want them to be. Economics is all about trade-offs. If you implement a policy, it comes at a cost, and not just monetary costs. We are talking about creating wealth caps, more poverty, more homelessness as a cost. You have to weigh those costs against the benefit, and many times the cost is not worth it. Read his book Economics Facts and Fallacies as a warm up.

Most main stream economists do not advocate for capitalism because of self interest. For instance, you almost never find a classic liberal economist working in Government, because they understand the harm that government can do, you and if you don't advocate for government fixing all of our economic problems, then there is no job security. Because of this, the MSEs want everyone to believe that government is necessary for everything.

Socialists, Keynesians, monetarists etc., make up a vast majority of main stream economics. Every one of these prescribe government intervention to fix economic problems.

Meanwhile, classic liberals and the Austrian economists understand the trade offs and the cost, so they tend to want to find alternatives to government intervention.

I've barely scratched the surface and have already typed quite a bit. I recommend you read Thomas Sowell, Hayek, and Ludwig von Mises. And when you are finished reading those, you will see government solutions in a whole new light. They will make you think completely different.

In conclusion, we do know what works; capitalism and independent charitable acts, but every social experiment we have done had a great cost that many times does more harm than good.
One party system; Most Republicans are Democrats, but no Democrats are Republicans.
Hayek and Mises were right; they're all socialists.
"To Call something fair or unfair is a subjective value judgment and not liable to any verification" Ludwig Von Mises
post 1689292703 08-31-2023, 04:17 PM
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#149
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Originally Posted By J.L.C.
Maybe that's why I'm using it as an example?
So all these Migrants camping out in the stations, just give them money and a home?

And whatever happened to "earning" money?
post 1689292953 08-31-2023, 04:22 PM
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#150
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Originally Posted By Kraken
The least amount of homelessness and inequality has come from capitalism.

The argument from the socialist is always "well it isn't zero". But the capitalist argues "it is the least of any other system". What we do know, is that absolute arguments have no place in societal issues. You will never have zero crime. You will never have zero poverty, you will never have zero homelessness.

This means that the only thing that we know that works so far, is capitalism. And then we have to dive into what is it about capitalism that works. This is where things become difficult, because if there are fundamental values that have not been imprinted in you, fundamentally, they become very difficult to understand, which leads to disbelief.

By far the easiest author to understand would be Thomas Sowell. He gets straight to the point, and makes you understand that things are not as clear as what you want them to be. Economics is all about trade-offs. If you implement a policy, it comes at a cost, and not just monetary costs. We are talking about creating wealth caps, more poverty, more homelessness as a cost. You have to weigh those costs against the benefit, and many times the cost is not worth it. Read his book Economics Facts and Fallacies as a warm up.

Most main stream economists do not advocate for capitalism because of self interest. For instance, you almost never find a classic liberal economist working in Government, because they understand the harm that government can do, you and if you don't advocate for government fixing all of our economic problems, then there is no job security. Because of this, the MSEs want everyone to believe that government is necessary for everything.

Socialists, Keynesians, monetarists etc., make up a vast majority of main stream economics. Every one of these prescribe government intervention to fix economic problems.

Meanwhile, classic liberals and the Austrian economists understand the trade offs and the cost, so they tend to want to find alternatives to government intervention.

I've barely scratched the surface and have already typed quite a bit. I recommend you read Thomas Sowell, Hayek, and Ludwig von Mises. And when you are finished reading those, you will see government solutions in a whole new light. They will make you think completely different.

In conclusion, we do know what works; capitalism and independent charitable acts, but every social experiment we have done had a great cost that many times does more harm than good.
So the US just isn't capitalist enough?

Is there an example of a nation that is or was capitalist enough to not have any homeless people?

Capitalism kind of assumes the proletariat are an unlimited resource.

I get the survival of the fittest angle, it's just not a view I hold.
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