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Forum » Can someone aware me on marxism?
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Thread: Can someone aware me on marxism?

post 1680409103 04-08-2023, 11:29 AM
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Originally Posted By J.L.C.⏩
I don't think so. All three have a stateless society as a tenet.
We do not after all differ with the anarchists on the question of the abolition of the state as the aim. We maintain that, to achieve this aim, we must temporarily make use of the instruments, resources, and methods of state power against the exploiters, just as the temporary dictatorship of the oppressed class is necessary for the abolition of classes. Marx chooses the sharpest and clearest way of stating his case against the anarchists: After overthrowing the yoke of the capitalists, should the workers "lay down their arms", or use them against the capitalists in order to crush their resistance? But what is the systematic use of arms by any class against another if not a "transient form" of state?

Edit: this was lenin, and apparently 'temporary' means nearly 100 years, only ending when it totally collapses

Marxists are only incidentally anti state. They are against capitalism and view the state as a capitalist institution.

Marx misunderstands human social interaction (class struggle), which leads him to misdiagnose the origin of and reason for the state, which leads his proposed remedies to be ineffectual and counter productive in practice
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post 1680410123 04-08-2023, 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted By Stizzel⏩
We do not after all differ with the anarchists on the question of the abolition of the state as the aim. We maintain that, to achieve this aim, we must temporarily make use of the instruments, resources, and methods of state power against the exploiters, just as the temporary dictatorship of the oppressed class is necessary for the abolition of classes. Marx chooses the sharpest and clearest way of stating his case against the anarchists: After overthrowing the yoke of the capitalists, should the workers "lay down their arms", or use them against the capitalists in order to crush their resistance? But what is the systematic use of arms by any class against another if not a "transient form" of state?
Marx and Engels viewed the State as a product of class struggle, the executive committee of the ruling class, an instrument with which one class could rule another.

They believed the state would wither away "naturally". This hasn't been observed historically. But, that doesn't mean either Marx or Engels sought an authoritarian state as an end goal.
post 1680410573 04-08-2023, 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted By J.L.C.⏩
Marx and Engels viewed the State as a product of class struggle, the executive committee of the ruling class, an instrument with which one class could rule another.

They believed the state would wither away "naturally". This hasn't been observed historically. But, that doesn't mean either Marx or Engels sought an authoritarian state as an end goal.
See edit. It was not the goal, it was the means to achieve that goal of stateless society. And the real kicker is that it will never achieve that goal, so the authoritarian state continues in perpetuity
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post 1680410703 04-08-2023, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted By Stizzel⏩
See edit. It was not the goal, it was the means to achieve that goal of stateless society. And the real kicker is that it will never achieve that goal, so the authoritarian state continues in perpetuity
This is what distinguishes Marxism from Stalinism and Lenism, imo.
post 1680411033 04-08-2023, 12:05 PM
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Originally Posted By Stizzel⏩
See edit. It was not the goal, it was the means to achieve that goal of stateless society. And the real kicker is that it will never achieve that goal, so the authoritarian state continues in perpetuity
This. So they use strong control to set things right and then expect those in control to just give up control? Never going to happen.
post 1680411803 04-08-2023, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted By J.L.C.⏩
This is what distinguishes Marxism from Stalinism and Lenism, imo.
I should have said "this is one of the things that separates..."
post 1680411913 04-08-2023, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted By Jasonw1178⏩
This. So they use strong control to set things right and then expect those in control to just give up control? Never going to happen.
That was Stalin and Lenin. They came along after Marx was dead.
post 1680412493 04-08-2023, 12:33 PM
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Originally Posted By J.L.C.⏩
This is what distinguishes Marxism from Stalinism and Lenism, imo.
I think this is just the communist penchant for creating a new ism for every branch in the ideological road. There is some ambiguity you can hide behind because Marx never succeeded in his attempts at communist revolutions but his arguments with the anarchists were in whether the state should be used to achieve their goals or not.

In any case both have been tried, with the state and without, and neither has had even a modicum of success because the marxist premise that class struggle defines human society is false
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post 1680413333 04-08-2023, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted By Stizzel⏩
I think this is just the communist penchant for creating a new ism for every branch in the ideological road. There is some ambiguity you can hide behind because Marx never succeeded in his attempts at communist revolutions but his arguments with the anarchists were in whether the state should be used to achieve their goals or not.

In any case both have been tried, with the state and without, and neither has had even a modicum of success because the marxist premise that class struggle defines human society is false
Some argue it's false, others believe there's merit. It's a debate and a fun one.
post 1680414163 04-08-2023, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted By J.L.C.⏩
Some argue it's false, others believe there's merit. It's a debate and a fun one.
We have examples of both. Both failed. In other words, we can say with certainty, especially when compared to other systems, that it doesn’t work. From the cabals to the communist/fascist state, they all failed. The missing link in Marx’s is the human element. For example, one of the many reasons why the cabals failed was because people became wasteful. When people don’t have to pay for water, electricity, etc, they tend to waste it significantly. Accountability begins to break down. Working “for the greater good” only works after self interest is served first on societal scales.

Marx failed to account for individual decision making, which is exactly what the Austrians are trying to get across.
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post 1680414353 04-08-2023, 01:00 PM
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Originally Posted By Kraken⏩
We have examples of both. Both failed. In other words, we can say with certainty, especially when compared to other systems, that it doesn’t work. From the cabals to the communist/fascist state, they all failed. The missing link in Marx’s is the human element. For example, one of the many reasons why the cabals failed was because people became wasteful. When people don’t have to pay for water, electricity, etc, they tend to waste it significantly. Accountability begins to break down. Working “for the greater good” only works after self interest is served first on societal scales.
I disagree.

I don't think communism nor Marxism have been achieved.

I also don't think fascism and communism can or should be conflated.
post 1680414653 04-08-2023, 01:06 PM
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I don't think Marx was a Pragmatist.
post 1680415073 04-08-2023, 01:13 PM
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Originally Posted By J.L.C.⏩
I disagree.

I don't think communism nor Marxism have been achieved.

I also don't think fascism and communism can or should be conflated.
This is the paradox of the Marxist; Since no form of Marxism has ever been successful, Marxism has never been achieved.

This meme sums it up...



Marxism is an abstract fantasy. It doesn't exist. It's fiction. It was created out of the nonsensical ramblings of a loser. It will never exist. It was a society based on a delusion

What's ironic about all of this, is that capitalism could be argued to have been the utopian ideal. The community working together to prosper without the state. How a system influences the individual matters, and we have lots of comparisons to form reasonable and logical conclusions.
One party system; Most Republicans are Democrats, but no Democrats are Republicans.
Hayek and Mises were right; they're all socialists.
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post 1680415873 04-08-2023, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted By Kraken⏩
This is the paradox of the Marxist; Since no form of Marxism has ever been successful, Marxism has never been achieved.

This meme sums it up...


Marxism is an abstract fantasy. It doesn't exist. It's fiction. It was created out of the nonsensical ramblings of a loser. It will never exist. It was a society based on a delusion

What's ironic about all of this, is that capitalism could be argued to have been the utopian ideal. The community working together to prosper without the state. How a system influences the individual matters, and we have lots of comparisons to form reasonable and logical conclusions.
The OP asked for information regarding Marxism. This thread contains information regarding Marxist theory as well as misrepresentations of Marxist theory.

At present, Marxism seems to be used pejoratively, similar to "woke", where people use the terms in regard to anything they don't like.
post 1680419763 04-08-2023, 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted By J.L.C.⏩
The OP asked for information regarding Marxism. This thread contains information regarding Marxist theory as well as misrepresentations of Marxist theory.

At present, Marxism seems to be used pejoratively, similar to "woke", where people use the terms in regard to anything they don't like.
I was discussing the fallacies and reality of Marxism. I’ve spoken about examples of Marxist ideals playing out in the real world. Marxism has evolved in America. It’s still fundamentally in tact, but certain things have been replaced.

It started in the 1960s and Stokely Carmichael largely spearheaded the movement. He claimed to see the similarities in Marx’s writings and the similarities between the poor and blacks and concluded that it was the system; institutional racism, white guilt, capitalism, the government…everything was rigged from day 1 and the rest of the process played out in the markets because everything was designed to keep blacks from succeeding. American Marxism was born.

Today, we see a lot of the same rhetoric that can be read in Carmichael’s book, Black Power; Politics of Liberation. In it, he never specifically used the words “riot”, but he alluded to it several times. Remember that this is the same manifestation of Marxism that Obama prescribed to, and through the use of Leninism, which was created to bring in a Marxist revolution by the state, and they succeeded.

There are many different aspects of Marxism. It’s best to educate people on the reality first, THEN the philosophy. The education system is currently set up just to educated on the philosophy, and it is truly a backwards and demonic ideology.

Marxism is nothing more than a dialectical philosophy that claims has no rival nor can it be criticized as Marx himself stated. So, discussing the philosophy of marks will have you all over the place. The best way to understand Marxism is to see it played out in reality.
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post 1680420313 04-08-2023, 02:59 PM
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post 1680420593 04-08-2023, 03:04 PM
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Originally Posted By Kraken⏩
I was discussing the fallacies and reality of Marxism. I’ve spoken about examples of Marxist ideals playing out in the real world. Marxism has evolved in America. It’s still fundamentally in tact, but certain things have been replaced.

It started in the 1960s and Stokely Carmichael largely spearheaded the movement. He claimed to see the similarities in Marx’s writings and the similarities between the poor and blacks and concluded that it was the system; institutional racism, white guilt, capitalism, the government…everything was rigged from day 1 and the rest of the process played out in the markets because everything was designed to keep blacks from succeeding. American Marxism was born.

Today, we see a lot of the same rhetoric that can be read in Carmichael’s book, Black Power; Politics of Liberation. In it, he never specifically used the words “riot”, but he alluded to it several times. Remember that this is the same manifestation of Marxism that Obama prescribed to, and through the use of Leninism, which was created to bring in a Marxist revolution by the state, and they succeeded.

There are many different aspects of Marxism. It’s best to educate people on the reality first, THEN the philosophy. The education system is currently set up just to educated on the philosophy, and it is truly a backwards and demonic ideology
I disagree. I feel that when discussing a theory, the actual theory should be presented first.

Theory to practice, aka praxis.

Marx didn't advocate for violence or riots.

Regarding the US civil war, Marx supported the struggle against the "slave oligarchy".
post 1680421493 04-08-2023, 03:21 PM
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Originally Posted By J.L.C.⏩
The OP asked for information regarding Marxism. This thread contains information regarding Marxist theory as well as misrepresentations of Marxist theory.

At present, Marxism seems to be used pejoratively, similar to "woke", where people use the terms in regard to anything they don't like.
The information you give is the ideas of Marxism, and the "misrepresentations" are simply the reality of Marxism.

It would be like I build this perfect machine. I tell you how it's going to run and how perfect it is. When I go to crank it up, it goes backwards and self destructs and falls into pieces. You say my machine is a piece of junk. I argue that you can't say my machine doesn't work because I've never gotten it started.

A sign of insanity is trying the same thing over and over expecting a different result.
post 1680421833 04-08-2023, 03:27 PM
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Originally Posted By Jasonw1178⏩
The information you give is the ideas of Marxism, and the "misrepresentations" are simply the reality of Marxism.

It would be like I build this perfect machine. I tell you how it's going to run and how perfect it is. When I go to crank it up, it goes backwards and self destructs and falls into pieces. You say my machine is a piece of junk. I argue that you can't say my machine doesn't work because I've never gotten it started.

A sign of insanity is trying the same thing over and over expecting a different result.
Several people have aware'd OP on Marxist theory. Others have presented things they don't like and called those things Marxist.
post 1680422333 04-08-2023, 03:35 PM
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Originally Posted By J.L.C.⏩
Others have presented things they don't like and called those things Marxist.
The other thing you will notice with Marxists, is their lack of self awareness.
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Hayek and Mises were right; they're all socialists.
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post 1680422683 04-08-2023, 03:40 PM
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Originally Posted By Kraken⏩
The other thing you will notice with Marxists, is their lack of self awareness.
All zealots are like that. Not just the communist ones.
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post 1680422863 04-08-2023, 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted By Kraken⏩
The other thing you will notice with Marxists, is their lack of self awareness.
That may be true. I don't know any Marxists.
post 1680445533 04-09-2023, 12:19 AM
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Originally Posted By ChewYourFood⏩
Why is Marxism so unanesthetically appealing?

Your natural instinct is to be repulsed by it.
post 1680454633 04-09-2023, 07:45 AM
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Originally Posted By Beauuu⏩
So much this. Look at any open communist today, such as Antifa. Mostly a bunch of weirdos that you know where punked and bullied their entire life because they are wierd and they suffer from all kinds of issues making them not really employable so all they want to do is do drugs all day. The rest are just gneral unsuccessful people who won't even try.
post 1680456923 04-09-2023, 08:39 AM
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Originally Posted By Jasonw1178⏩
So much this. Look at any open communist today, such as Antifa. Mostly a bunch of weirdos that you know where punked and bullied their entire life because they are wierd and they suffer from all kinds of issues making them not really employable so all they want to do is do drugs all day. The rest are just gneral unsuccessful people who won't even try.
I think that has more to do with chitty people in a broken society than the theoretical underpinnings of Marxism.
post 1680466553 04-09-2023, 11:19 AM
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Originally Posted By Anachron⏩
Chitty people in a broken society?

Just LOL @ beavercels srs
And yet they totally ignore the fact that societal entropy accelerated from the revolutions of the 1930s (fascist) and the 1960s (socialist/Marxist).

The evidence strongly suggests the Marxist revolution was one of the most devastating movements in world history
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post 1680467803 04-09-2023, 11:44 AM
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Originally Posted By J.L.C.⏩
I think that has more to do with chitty people in a broken society than the theoretical underpinnings of Marxism.
For sure. Those who can't make it in this economic system want a different one. The saying "It's not your successful friends posting socialist memes" is very true.
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Originally Posted By Jasonw1178⏩
For sure. Those who can't make it in this economic system want a different one. The saying "It's not your successful friends posting socialist memes" is very true.
That may be true for some.
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Originally Posted By J.L.C.⏩
Some argue it's false, others believe there's merit. It's a debate and a fun one.
I'm suppose some might find it fun to argue an untenable position but that doesn't mean there's any substance to it. Marx said himself that if his premise is correct the stateless marxist society will manifest itself with the force of natural law, and that has never, ever happened. Even when marxists get tired of waiting and force the issue, it fails.
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post 1680480613 04-09-2023, 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted By Stizzel⏩
I'm suppose some might find it fun to argue an untenable position but that doesn't mean there's any substance to it. Marx said himself that if his premise is correct the stateless marxist society will manifest itself with the force of natural law, and that has never, ever happened. Even when marxists get tired of waiting and force the issue, it fails.
But the discussion isn't about whether or not Marx's theory was correct or came true.
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