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Forum » Health Care a Human Right?
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Thread: Health Care a Human Right?

post 1503628341 05-05-2017, 01:09 PM
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It's a tough question because on one hand, shouldn't a first world country have the means to give some kind of a safety net to its population? On the other hand, shouldn't a first world country be able to pay its people enough wages so they can afford health insurance, thereby alleviating the need for a safety net?

Now, we know, today's first world countries are broke and don't have the money to do either, so what do?

Get further in debt to be a safety net for every one? Or descend back in to the wild west where only the strong survive?

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post 1503628591 05-05-2017, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted By atjoblin⏩
I understand that medical care cost money and Health care covers those cost using peoples insurance payments. Why do people believe it is an innate right like breathing air?















































Because DEAD people do NOT PAY TAXES!
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post 1503628751 05-05-2017, 01:13 PM
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Yes health CARE is a right anyone with a life threatening injury should be saved, health COVERAGE i.e. the ability to pay for said treatment is not a right.
post 1503630761 05-05-2017, 01:29 PM
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For something like this it should be.

post 1503630971 05-05-2017, 01:30 PM
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Accessto health care is a right. Meaning, you are free to get health care and nobody is stopping you. You donothave a right to my labor. For whatever reason, people don't understand this distinction. They seem to think labor and resources are infinite.

I seriously would love to see all medical professionals take a week off to simply prove this point. Meanwhile, all the clueless and confused people who think they have a right to someone elses labor will line up outside hospitals and have a massive meltdown as they realize their views don't equal reality.
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post 1503631081 05-05-2017, 01:31 PM
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it's not a "right".

even in canada, where everyone gets average healthcare - they PAY FOR IT with massive taxes.

so they are no different than us except we have 1) choice 2) pay far less and 3) get way better healthcare.

lol @ canadians complaining about our healthcare. I pay $100/month for mine after employer contribution and have FAR better coverage and freedom than they do.

And once ur after 65, healthcare is free no matter what. Assuming you live long after 65. Also it's FREE for illegals and poverty people.
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post 1503632601 05-05-2017, 01:41 PM
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The other thing simple minded people don't get is that labeling something like health care a right means dick squat.

Just because some politician says, "Alright you have a health care professionals labor..." doesn't mean you get what you need. The people at the bottom of the societal pyramid will still not get the same value as those at the top. Joe the Taco Bell cashier isn't going to get the same quality surgeon as the CEO of Taco Bell. Even worse, Joe might have to wait for weeks, meanwhile, the CEO gets shoved to the front of the line.

What I expect from universal health care is:

- Routine issues are dealt with relatively speedily
- Complicated issues that require specialist will be rationed
- A black market will develop to bridge the gap


What I hate most about the whole discussion is the presumption that capitalism is inadequate to fix the problem. There has never been a free market in modern medicine. The government and cronies started phuking the system over about a century ago.
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post 1503632771 05-05-2017, 01:43 PM
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Originally Posted By faxanadu⏩
Accessto health care is a right. Meaning, you are free to get health care and nobody is stopping you. You donothave a right to my labor. For whatever reason, people don't understand this distinction. They seem to think labor and resources are infinite.

I seriously would love to see all medical professionals take a week off to simply prove this point. Meanwhile, all the clueless and confused people who think they have a right to someone elses labor will line up outside hospitals and have a massive meltdown as they realize their views don't equal reality.
You make it sound like health care professionals don't get paid well. No one forced them to do anything.
post 1503634271 05-05-2017, 01:56 PM
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post 1503634431 05-05-2017, 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted By stillbored⏩
You make it sound like health care professionals don't get paid well. No one forced them to do anything.
What does that have to do with anything. I used a purposeful situation to point out the obvious fallacy in the argument that someone has a right to another persons labor.

There is a reason why the left always centers the debate around equally developed nations... because it frames the argument better for them. If they made the scope wider (to the entire world) everyone would clearly see they don't have a right to medical labor. You'd clearly see that it would not be sustainable. There is not enough labor and resources to cover the demand.

The reasons why liberals in developed nations can get away with this BS is because developed nations sit atop the wealth pyramid. We extract resources and labor from undeveloped nations which keeps otherwise unsustainable programs running in our countries.
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post 1503635081 05-05-2017, 02:03 PM
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I dont know the answer so Im not going to pretend like I do, but what does bother me is all the per-existing condition stuff. How you going to penalize someone for being born with a certain disease or health issue? It's one thing if you brought it on yourself through smoking or something like that, but for other issues it was basically out of your control.
post 1503635141 05-05-2017, 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted By faxanadu⏩
Accessto health care is a right. Meaning, you are free to get health care and nobody is stopping you. You donothave a right to my labor. For whatever reason, people don't understand this distinction. They seem to think labor and resources are infinite.

I seriously would love to see all medical professionals take a week off to simply prove this point. Meanwhile, all the clueless and confused people who think they have a right to someone elses labor will line up outside hospitals and have a massive meltdown as they realize their views don't equal reality.
I'm guessing then that people don't have a right to the labour of a soldier, policeman, judge, etc too, so all these services should be left to the market. Since you wouldn't want to be logically inconsistent and all
post 1503635341 05-05-2017, 02:06 PM
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I think a big issue for me concerning universal healthcare is "This person knowingly did this to themselves. Should they be entitled to free healthcare because they were too stupid to realize what was going to happen?"

Look at how many addicts we have. Even obese.

The reason why it works so well in Germany, Scandinavia (all of them), Canada and mostly everywhere else. Is because they understand to an extent to not be gluttons. If I lived there I would totally fine with my tax dollars funding it. Not here where some Honey Boo Boo fat bittch stuffing her face with sweets gets diabetes for life and now we have to keep funding that. Or some fat lazy hoe keeps having kids because she knows she doesn't have to pay for them to be born, doctors or anything. Then feeds them mcdonalds thinking nothing will happen.

I used to be big FOR universal healthcare, but now I believe we need to rethink or health system in terms of cost. How can medicine be made in the USA but sold in Canada for more than twice as cheap? If its a way to eliminate the poor thats one thing. But you have self respecting normal people (me including) that won't go to the hospital because it costs way too much for them to tell you nothing.
post 1503635371 05-05-2017, 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted By BrocepCurls⏩
I'm guessing then that people don't have a right to the labour of a soldier, policeman, judge, etc too, so all these services should be left to the market. Since you wouldn't want to be logically inconsistent and all
No you don't have a right to the labor of soldiers, policement, judges, etc. If they all decided to sit on their hands ... what are you going to do... hold a gun to their head?

If you think you have a right to someones labor, you simply don't understand what a right is.
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post 1503635471 05-05-2017, 02:08 PM
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Originally Posted By BrocepCurls⏩
I'm guessing then that people don't have a right to the labour of a soldier, policeman, judge, etc too, so all these services should be left to the market. Since you wouldn't want to be logically inconsistent and all
"labour"

Also, those are all public servants; they know they will get **** wages for the level of service performed because it has to be paid by the tax payer. Try again with another strawman, plz.
Best thread: http://forum.obnoxiousbrutes.com/showthread.php?t=168274783
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post 1503635841 05-05-2017, 02:13 PM
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Do I believe its a "right"? No. But a society with universal healthcare is a healthier society.


Enough with the "my labor isn't your right" BS. Universal healthcare doesn't reduce anyone to slavery. There's enough wealth in a country like the US to provide basic healthcare to everyone. If you're rich, sure go right ahead with your fancier healthcare services but don't deny this basic service for everyone.


Most countries where life is half decent have universal healthcare of some sort. I don't understand why the US needs to be different.
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post 1503635911 05-05-2017, 02:13 PM
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I think I would be OK with universal health insurance if some things that are choices were not covered.

Obesity related problem (and you don't have an actual medical reason for being fat), pay for it yourself
Smoke forever and got sick, pay for it yourself
Having a kid, pay for it yourself
I also think your 'premium' or whatever you want to call it should go up slightly as you age, since you will be using it more.

Real accidents, actual illnesses, rare cancer for a healthy 27 year old lady? Sure, cover those.


I wouldn't be voting for this, but if it happened and these were the general guidelines, I wouldn't burn down my neighbors house in protest.
post 1503635941 05-05-2017, 02:14 PM
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Rights are his given and don't require anyone else than yourself to achieve.
Examples:
Bear arms: purchase yourself a gun and protect yourself as necessary
Education: read books and go to a library for free, not requiring someone to teach you for free.
Speech: you can say pretty much whatever you feel like, don't involuntarily involve others, ie yelling fire in a crowded theater.
Religion: practice whatever the hell you feel like just don't force it on others.
Edit:
Healtcare: you can administer your own or research remedies. Cannot force others to serve you while not accomidating them financially to their choosing.
Having said that, it is human decency to help someone you see in need but not required of anyone.
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post 1503635951 05-05-2017, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted By ImpressiveGainz⏩
"labour"

Also, those are all public servants; they know they will get **** wages for the level of service performed because it has to be paid by the tax payer. Try again with another strawman, plz.
Health care workers get decent wages in Canada. I know nurses making 80k+ a year.
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post 1503636161 05-05-2017, 02:16 PM
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Originally Posted By thecheezman⏩
I think a big issue for me concerning universal healthcare is "This person knowingly did this to themselves. Should they be entitled to free healthcare because they were too stupid to realize what was going to happen?"

Look at how many addicts we have. Even obese.

The reason why it works so well in Germany, Scandinavia (all of them), Canada and mostly everywhere else. Is because they understand to an extent to not be gluttons. If I lived there I would totally fine with my tax dollars funding it. Not here where some Honey Boo Boo fat bittch stuffing her face with sweets gets diabetes for life and now we have to keep funding that. Or some fat lazy hoe keeps having kids because she knows she doesn't have to pay for them to be born, doctors or anything. Then feeds them mcdonalds thinking nothing will happen.

I used to be big FOR universal healthcare, but now I believe we need to rethink or health system in terms of cost. How can medicine be made in the USA but sold in Canada for more than twice as cheap? If its a way to eliminate the poor thats one thing. But you have self respecting normal people (me including) that won't go to the hospital because it costs way too much for them to tell you nothing.
Medicine is ridiculously expensive because the government got in bed with private industry while at the same time allowing patents to be applied. It takes something like 12 year and a quarter billion dollars to bring something to market through the FDA. If a drug is approved internationally ... the FDA doesn't recognize that and still requires it go through the same process. So the real money is in developing and patenting a new drug and massively overcharging for it until the patent runs out.
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post 1503636471 05-05-2017, 02:19 PM
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Healthcare isn't an inalienable right in itself. However, denying someone healthcare because they lack insurance or money is purely unethical. You don't have the "right" to receive something from someone else.... they either do it or they don't; it's just part of the human code in regards to helping your fellow man. You don't have the "right" to have someone give you a surgery lol. It's supposed to be done out of good nature in pertinence to an altruistic and collective society. But guess what? We don't live in an altruistic collective, we live in a individualistic capitalist society, so in other words, our society has mutually agreed (by democratic choice) to uphold and enforce such a society... and this society means you get a career with health insurance in order to receive healthcare.

Personally, medicine, pharmaceutics and healthcare should not be a lucrative business in which billions of dollars can be made, it's unethical right from the get-go. You cannot ethically charge someone money for healthcare, it's fundamentally against ethics. Becoming a doctor should not be a lucrative career strategy in which you "did it" to make tons of money. That is again a rudimentary flaw in approach to the ethics of healthcare. A person interested in becoming a doctor should primarily be interested in helping his fellow man purely out of good morals, not exploiting them for money. Medicine should not be a career in which one seeks to become wealthy monetarily, but rather one in which the individual seeks to gain wealth in a manner of altruism.

The entire healthcare and pharmaceutical industry is phucked, nothing but corruption and big bucks. Exploitation of illnesses, treating instead of curing etc.
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post 1503636491 05-05-2017, 02:19 PM
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Originally Posted By vsportsguy⏩
Someone still has to pay for that surgery. Universal healthcare is a just another tax on the young and healthy that benefits the old and sick. I'm sorry that rare cases will suffer because of it, but they are the exception, not the rule.
But the old and sick used to be the young and healthy
post 1503636701 05-05-2017, 02:22 PM
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It may not be a right but it should be affordable in a civilized society. The same ones complaining about tax dollars going towards health care don't seem to mind tax dollars going to foreign countries like Israel.
post 1503636911 05-05-2017, 02:24 PM
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Originally Posted By Iceman1800⏩
It may not be a right but it should be affordable in a civilized society. The same ones complaining about tax dollars going towards health care don't seem to mind tax dollars going to foreign countries like Israel.
It's telling you bring up Israel, and not Afghanistan or Mexico...
Best thread: http://forum.obnoxiousbrutes.com/showthread.php?t=168274783
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post 1503637171 05-05-2017, 02:26 PM
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if you are for government controlled healthcare, fine. Then you should be subject to the government coming in your house and throwing away and regulating your junk food intake, aswell as them regulating your weight and health. If you dont keep a certain weight and health score, then you get fined. Liberals need the government to do everything for them.
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post 1503637221 05-05-2017, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted By getbig_ttt⏩
Do I believe its a "right"? No. But a society with universal healthcare is a healthier society.


Enough with the "my labor isn't your right" BS.Universal healthcare doesn't reduce anyone to slavery.There's enough wealth in a country like the US to provide basic healthcare to everyone. If you're rich, sure go right ahead with your fancier healthcare services but don't deny this basic service for everyone.


Most countries where life is half decent have universal healthcare of some sort. I don't understand why the US needs to be different.
Apparently you aren't aware that 80% of the worlds surgical instruments are made in Pakistan by people making about $60/month. You're right... nobody is reduced to slavery to support the developed world...
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post 1503637441 05-05-2017, 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted By ImpressiveGainz⏩
It's telling you bring up Israel, and not Afghanistan or Mexico...
Not really. That's just the obvious one that one political party is enamored with. I don't think our money should leave this country as long as we have sick, homeless and starving citizens.
post 1503637851 05-05-2017, 02:32 PM
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Originally Posted By Iceman1800⏩
Not really. That's just the obvious one that one political party is enamored with. I don't think our money should leave this country as long as we have sick, homeless and starving citizens.
We're the ones that print the money though. It's also possible that 100 billion in bribes to other countries saves us 200 billion in cheap oil and other resources.
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post 1503637991 05-05-2017, 02:34 PM
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Originally Posted By Iceman1800⏩
Not really. That's just the obvious one that one political party is enamored with. I don't think our money should leave this country as long as we have sick, homeless and starving citizens.
I don't disagree whatsoever. We're sending a quarter billion dollars to South Africa for "health", and they're supposedly a "first world" nation. Who the hell knows the rationale behind that.
Best thread: http://forum.obnoxiousbrutes.com/showthread.php?t=168274783
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post 1503638021 05-05-2017, 02:35 PM
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  4. Location: New Jersey, United States
  5. Age: 35
  6. Posts: 12,399
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Its certainly not a right, but in a society where we do tax money for the good of all and have to prioritize the use of said money, healthcare should be a top the list. I never see anyone upset that their money is going towards pretty much useless bombers or other military technology that rarely gets used. 100 million per jet and 100,000 dollar bombs to drop on the middle east and no one bats an eyelash. Pay for someones life saving medication and all of a sudden its "muuuh tax money"

Be consistent
Phila crew
Healthcare Crew
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