So what is exactly needed?

Shower 5 times a day? Tried does not work

Be yourself? Tried.

Act like you are someone else? Tried.

Work on self improvement? I do that all my life. I speak 3 languages, learning 4th. I work on degrees, go to gym regularly, have a good job in IT that most people here can only dream about. Also salary is dream compared to local standards. I don't drink, don't smoke, don't do drugs. I don't play video games.

Yet no woman want anything to do with me. I am pre-rejected before I even introduce myself.

I try not to care. But sometimes I care. I wish I could stop caring totally. About chicks I mean. I have very interesting things in my life that I should care about. Chicks are distraction. Especially that they are untouchable for me. But forbidden fruit is always wanted, I guess.

Incel but actually agree with this.

This is nonsense. for every lazy fat incel, there's a guy doing his best who just can't catch a break because women have high as hell standards and a lot of guys are going to be left out no matter what they do.

I'm a good example of that, and I know I'm an extreme outlier but still. I've done everything I can and it doesnt make a difference because women refuse to settle for a short ugly guy when they can do better

No, I say this as though guys who define themselves as "involuntarily X" are ill-equipped to do so. Just like kids who cry "but I studied so hard for my math test I have no idea why I failed" and in reality spent all night playing fortnite.

So when an entire group (and they embrace the group mentality) come together to blame an entire gender for a fairly miserable existence, the issue is: why you? Read devops' drivel about being pre-rejected by women and now read this black pill:

He works in Serbia and has a police record. He wanted or wants to come to the EU but the police record prevents him from getting a Visa. He fights with his family or at least some members who have told him that he doesn't do enough for them.

With all that in mind he blames all women for pre-rejecting him. And you think that we should take that at face value? Posters like him enjoy wallowing in their own negativity - that is precisely why incels write what is equivalent to "I'm a loser, baby, but it is entirely because of chads and sloots and 80/20" - seeking to abdicate themselves from any responsibility for their situation.

Can't rep you again, but this.

Post a pic and will give pointers.

Pic should include face, body, and what you regularly dress like.

Sex is nice, but it's not sad if you're not having it, it's sad if you're unable to be happy or enjoy anything in life because you're not having it. Strangely enough, when I'm seeking women like on pof or whatever I just match up with gargoyles or get no response/interest but then when I'm just enjoying the small things in life, maybe biking to the lake with my rod and tackle box to go fishin or somethin then I'm gettin cat called by some women. Best to just try to enjoy life regardless of what you have or don't have.

Yea if we're talking about guys like devops' then fair doos, but I don't wanna paint every 'incel' with the same brush.

Some people are just phucked, but honestly for 90+% of incels, a few lifestyle and mindset changes will go a long way. Even if you're phucked, you gotta make the best of what you have, moaning about it on the internet and laying down to rot does not help anyone.

Also, tons of incels who have nothing to offer CAN get laid, they just want an 8+/10 HBB whilst they live in their moms basement, have a dad bod and do nothing to further themselves in life.

Have you or do you struggle with women?

Fair enough. At least you have made an effort. Not everyone is a lost cause and I'm living proof. At least you can admit that you can't relate a similar experience.

Balkonwot honestly doesn't know jack chit lol. No hate but you're a pretty boy and I doubt you have struggled with large amounts of social rejection.

"I've never experienced this problem, therefore it doesn't exist"- The same old toxic mentality I see around here.

Yes incels are "the one with the problem" but to imply it's only because of them is a little close minded, no it's just stupid. People can be shaped by their experiences and several negative ones can leave you in a bitter state.

It's not about just having sex for everyone. For me I was rejected by people from my own religion, which were ironically the only ones I was allowed to be friends with. My fathers high status in the church made then avoid me because it was assumed I was a "bible boy". Normal kids at school were considered bad, and I was warned not to make close connections with them. My friendships often ended when the bell rang. So there I was, feeling like an outcast. How can an outcast just learn how to talk to womem overnight? Especially when they don't have any guidance outside of the toxic internet an media which promotes the ideas that make them feel inferior??? Don't even get me started on how ruthless girls can be in school lol. But that's another post entirely.

No ones asking for sympathy, but my mind is blowm at how many of you are completely incapable of seeing things from a point of view besides your own. Is it because you're so "experienced" and have overcome all of these "struggles"? lol k

I'm wasting my time typing this. I have some free time at work today, so maybe I'll organize my thoughts into a post later.

I don't struggle with women now really, but yes i have when i was younger. Up until i was about 20 i didn't get much attention, although i wasn't full incel as i had gotten laid in my teens... I used to get a little frustrated but not full incel... but then when i started focussing on improving myself FOR myself, instead of focussing on trying to get better for women, success came.

This is my point; if you're an incel, i don't see how it hurts to improve yourself regardless of women, i understand it's hard but it's your life you're playing with here so it's worth the effort. Worst case is you improve areas of your life even if you don't get laid and maybe you start to find some fulfilment elsewhere, best case is you start to attract more people, friends, and women into your life. Either way, rotting is just not healthy and not useful and it's not helpful to focus on things completely out of your control, it's much more productive to focus on things you can fix/improve, and sex is really not the be all and end all.

I think a lot of incels would do much better in life if they focused on improving themselves for themselves, rather than trying to do things with the ulterior motive to get laid.

Had to look that up.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Incelselfies/

I legit feel bad for some of these martians, but a couple could clean themselves up

My point is, a little sympathy wouldn't go amiss for people who aren't as fortunate as you.

I was 27 before I got any action with women, and I had to go to a hooker.

Sympathy only goes so far when it's the same *******s whining on the misc every day, with the same old tired, deluded excuses, when in reality they put in 0 effort, for these people sympathy doesn't help them, it just makes them worse. Yes EOD i'm looking at you.

Anyone ever watch Game of Thrones? The character Theon Greyjoy during his "Reek" days was fkin traumatised, you could tell a person like that to just "Man up, and cut Ramseys throat while shaving him" in that one scene, but they just fail to understand the mentality of a person like that. Simply saying "Try harder." won't get the message across. And degrading them certainly won't create change. But I question the motives of these people, I don't believe they actually care for the incels, I believe they like putting them 'in their place'.

Check the post histories of these people, they act righteous, but every other post they're gloating and hating on those that are less fortunate. What kind of a person does that? It's like kicking a homeless person in the face when walking past them, "Get a job, ya bum". Yeah, that's really gonna help him make change in his life.

If you want to see change in the world, don't spit on and degrade the person you're trying to help, actually try and help them, treat them like they were your actual bro. Like I said though, I question the motives of these people, they're like the people that got bullied back in the day(which I don't say to get a dig in at them, just that I've seen that cycle many times and am pointing it out), and are now using an online forum to play bully, to act alpha and try out that role they never had. It's more saddening to see that manifesting in a person than it is to see incels being incels.

And how was that like? I'm 34 and I could go to one if I wanted to. I'm just not convinced it's worth it and something bad might happen.

Spoken like a guy who got laid in his teens. And if Aristotelian's stories are anything to go by I think he's been having to fend off women with a stick ever since he could crawl.

Look, believe it or not, I mostly agree with the pair of you as to what you have to say about incels. My issue, mostly, is that you lack an appreciation for how these folks ended up where they are. To my mind, it's kinda similar to blaming the poor for being poor. Granted, some folks will be outright deserving of their poverty, but others less so.

I totally get the preacher's kid thing. Back in the day (I converted to something else when I was in college) my dad would make us sit in the front of the church, go the Sunday school, could only be friends with church kids etc. Those church kids were the bad ones to be honest. I'm so glad I got out of that chit. By the time I went to college, I literally had to play catch up in terms of social skills. I was pretty much winging it. Forget dating, I didn't learn how to date until I was 27. It's been a long road and I'm still learning the social stuff. Fake it till you make it right?

Of course some of them are a victim of circumstance/genetics, but you can still make the best of it - but yes i'm sure knowing for sure you're completely phucked lowers motivation.

But i'm talking specifically about the misc, a lot of the incels on the misc are not this way, they just make excuses and you can tell by their posts. EOD for example won't even consider a girl who is below 7/10, how is that truly an incel?

Former incel, if my dumbass can make it out anyone can, facts

It was one of the best decisions I've made in my adult life.

If you suspect that you have ANY degree of fear surrounding women (which I believe is fairly commonplace amongst FA/Incel types), then seeing a hooker will help you chip away at that.

Like... a big problem with incels is just making moves on women, be it asking for a date, going for a kiss, etc. So, you have to ask yourself - why is that? And if making moves on women is something you want to do, but find yourself being unable to do it, then it can only be fear that is stopping you.

Anyway, seeing a hooker will go a long way to tackling that fear head on. It won't FIX you or any stupid chit like that, or turn you into a slayer over night, but it should help to reduce any fear that may be crippling you, hopefully to the extent that you start taking more action in the real world.

I struggle with women to this day, but I went on to be a lot braver with women after that experience.

Are you aware of sexual surrogacy clinics? That's basically the legal version of what I'm talking about. They exist because some smart kent concluded exactly what I did, that if you have a lot of fear or discomfort surrounding something, you might have to engineer a novel way to tackle it.

Unless your short and ugly

He claims he's FA/incel though

Strange thing I've been here since 2006 and earlier today I stumbled on an old thread I had made in 2012 when I was 27.

it's so weird reading the comments in there, people were much more positive. almost stunning to see that.

These days misc is full of refugees from the incel reddits and st0rmfront I guess and it's just full of negative/cringe chit.

I even remember way back when I was ranting about how people don't like me IRL because i used to be weird and awkward bak then someone said something to the effect of "you keep saying that but you're quite liked around here". That stuck in my mind for some reason. I don't get the same feel from here anymore at all.

Or maybe i've just gotten old

I never see it, only ones I see are old, and they don't count since they grew up when they didn't have to deal with sky high standards and tinder. If they had to date today they would be incel

Given the essays we have written to each other in private I'm a bit mystified by this idea that I somehow lack sympathy for genuine cases. I know "incels" in real life. Even some who are fairly handsome and also high earners. Yet the common thing in them is exactly what is done here on this forum - a sort of appeal to determinism or fate.

I fully believe we determine our own situations though this can be heavily impacted by traumas, from childhood to family, physical to emotional. But the path to treating those isn't to scapegoat a whole gender for "slooting", it is to take a long hard look at yourself and see what can be done.

Personal growth is the key to fulfilling relationships.

i think the truly ugly men we should feel sorry for, that would be a world of pain I cannot fathom. But the reality is, most of the "incels" are just lacking in personality/confidence or some internal conflict. Most men are simply average faces, then working out, carrying yourself well, having confidence, knowing a bit about what women like, this all leads to relationships. It's extremely rare to be considered straight up ugly and I do feel sorry for these people as it generally equates to a physical deformity outside of their control. And even they can be slayers like the guy with no arms/legs lol