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Forum » Practicing medicine now, I see just how immune doctors are from AI/automation (srs)
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Thread: Practicing medicine now, I see just how immune doctors are from AI/automation (srs)

post 1596683971 01-30-2020, 03:53 AM
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Originally Posted By NVious⏩
The AI doesn't need to do "human level thinking," it needs to perform the surgery.

If you want to define human level thinking with your Will Smithesque definition, it's likely the AI is some deals away from that. If you want to define human level thinking as being able to perform a human task at or above human level, we already see what AI can do WITHOUT quantum computers.

Since you know about innovation and AI, you tell me the following:

1.What is punctuated equilibrium and how does it relate to human innovation?

2.Does human innovation progress in linear or non-linear fashions?

3.What is a force multiplier and how does it relate to human innovation?

4.Will quantum computers speed up, slow down or keep innovation at the same pace? To what extent if speed up or slow down?

5.Is surgery based on principles or not? If AI can learn other highly complex activities based on principles, why can't it learn surgery?
1. Theory relating to evolution of species being mostly static then suddenly diverging - no idea its relevance to human innovation
2. Both - depending on the application
3. Any object/item or tool that can give a measurable advantage to one similar group over another
4. CBF looking into this

5. Simplistically yes - certain principles govern the technical 'operating' side of surgery - however the system of performing an operation is much too complex to call a binary task - i.e, multiple unknown variables can occur at any single point in the procedure that may require an untold number of changes to the way the procedure proceeds.

IE - no one operation is the same, regardless of the relative simplicity.

What would you call a complex activity that AI can currently perform?

Also what point are you making and how is it relevant?
Plastic/Reconstructive =/= Cosmetic Surgery....

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post 1596693421 01-30-2020, 07:54 AM
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Just chiming in to say I'm enjoying the discussion.

And so far the pro AI/robot doctor crew hasn't convinced me.

SurgeonBrah has said it much more eloquently.

I suspect that the AI doctor crew lacks much experience of the medical field. Not a doctor here, but have plenty of experience as a patient and as a family member of patients.

Humans aren't just machines getting repaired. The humans are the customers with the autonomy to choose a care provider (at least to some extent) and to agree to a course of treatment.

How are we teaching these super brains unattached to perishable animal bodies to "people" (as RR would say)?

Can a disembodied intelligence comprehend hope, fear, pain, suffering, loss, or death having never experienced the same?

I suppose if you could implant this super brain into a physical body that exists just like we do. Then at that point why not just go cyborg?

Bring on the AI mechanic to fix my car or m appliances. If we reach a point where someone is fine with handing off care for grandma to an inhuman super intelligent 'bot then I think something of being human will have been lost.
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post 1596694381 01-30-2020, 08:12 AM
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It took a long time just for self driving cars.

I would say 20 years before a mechanic robot. 40 before surgeon.
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post 1596696201 01-30-2020, 08:39 AM
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Originally Posted By SurgeonBrah⏩
Yikes! Stirred the tin-foil hat miscers with this one OP! I agree with you btw

Not sure what surgical field p100 works in but there is no chance in hell that most surgical specialities will be replaced by AI in the near future. Robot assisted =/= AI replacing us...

Question for the AI nerds - can you confidently predict that future AI can or will able to learn empathy such as a Human?

Can you tell me that AI (without being programmed too) will be governed by the principles of autonomy, beneficence, non-malifacence and justice?


Sick people (not just injuries and the minor ****ing ailments most of you retards have seen doctors for!) don't just want to be 'fixed' - they need care, compassion, humanity.

This is the 'Art' of medicine.

Will a machine be able to take the hand of a dying patients wife and comfort them? Will they be able to break the news to a 48 year old Woman diagnosed with Stage 4 breast cancer that despite all surgery and adjunct therapy she likely won't live to see her sons 21's birthday?

These things I don't forseee AI ever being able to do.

Just for these reasons alone I would suspect that the MAJORITY of the normal population would prefer something so intimate as seeing a Doctor left to Humans.
Lol that's the thing. Most people think all we do is treat minor ailments when in reality 95% of mental energy of the day goes to the actual sick patients.
Originally Posted By xXGHOST23Xx⏩
Thats not a fail safe.Who is going to tell a surgeon, in the OR, at 3am to stop what he is doing because it is incorrect and lethal? Thats an after the fact quality control.

As if AI cant have M&Ms and Quality control software engineers on premise 24/7. there's your answer.

Now, whats your point?
We have tons of safety mechanisms in place for this stuff.
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post 1596696571 01-30-2020, 08:46 AM
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Originally Posted By katya422⏩
Just chiming in to say I'm enjoying the discussion.

And so far the pro AI/robot doctor crew hasn't convinced me.

SurgeonBrah has said it much more eloquently.

I suspect that the AI doctor crew lacks much experience of the medical field. Not a doctor here, but have plenty of experience as a patient and as a family member of patients.

Humans aren't just machines getting repaired. The humans are the customers with the autonomy to choose a care provider (at least to some extent) and to agree to a course of treatment.

How are we teaching these super brains unattached to perishable animal bodies to "people" (as RR would say)?

Can a disembodied intelligence comprehend hope, fear, pain, suffering, loss, or death having never experienced the same?

I suppose if you could implant this super brain into a physical body that exists just like we do. Then at that point why not just go cyborg?

Bring on the AI mechanic to fix my car or m appliances. If we reach a point where someone is fine with handing off care for grandma to an inhuman super intelligent 'bot then I think something of being human will have been lost.
A lot of miscers' only contact with a doctor is going in for a cough/cold/rash and they're mad the doc only spent 3 minutes on them because he/she was focused on the actual sick patients. So they think all medicine does is treat minor ailments and hence an AI can easily replace it.
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post 1596702751 01-30-2020, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted By Hardlifter9⏩
A lot of miscers' only contact with a doctor is going in for a cough/cold/rash and they're mad the doc only spent 3 minutes on them because he/she was focused on the actual sick patients. So they think all medicine does is treat minor ailments and hence an AI can easily replace it.
This is absolutely no different to your lack of knowledge of A.I though.

You keep saying you understand machine learning, but from your posts after the last few pages it's clear you really have and many others have no clue how machine learning works. You clearly think you do, but the actual mechanism by which it works you clearly don't grasp, and to have a valuable opinion in this discussion, this understanding is essential.

I don't understand medicine like you, but i do understand the field i work in. The key component of machine learning is that the programmer doesn't NEED to program the possibilities, and doesn't need to have any knowledge on the field, he simply needs to program the learning algorithm and throw data at it, a human can even help guide the learning to speed things up but it's not strictly necessary. It works in EXACTLY the same way as a human brain does for learning, it's just more primitive at the moment. You keep saying you understand this, but by the questions you're asking (like how can a computer make decisions if there's multiple options etc), it's painfully obvious you don't to anyone who's actually written some form of machine learning algorithm

As an example, google literally wrote a deep learning algorithm that watched 1000's of hours of youtube videos, and learned about the content in the videos from watching them just like a human would (but better). This was over 5 years ago aswell, so consider what they will be able to do 50 years in the future.

I'm not gonna bother to make a long ass post like before because it will fall on deaf ears, but all i'm seeing in this thread is a lot of misinformation regarding machine learning/A.I, and doctors trying to cope. Machines will take over pretty much every job one day, your profession is a skilled one will be one of the last to go and it probably won't happen during your career, so i don't know why you're coping so hard... just enjoy your life, and be thankful you have the intellect to pursue such a sought after and skilled career. To have such a huge degree of arrogance to think for sure your job is forever immune from computers, that work in the same way as the human brain is honestly laughable though.... especially when you consider the internet has only been widely available for 30 years.. consider the advancements that could be made in the next 50 years.

It may not be able to handle the emotional side of comforting patients etc, but one day it will definately make better medical decisions unless there's armageddon in the next 100 years (unless a.i is the cause, of course)
post 1596703021 01-30-2020, 10:22 AM
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#307
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Originally Posted By Hardlifter9⏩
A lot of miscers' only contact with a doctor is going in for a cough/cold/rash and they're mad the doc only spent 3 minutes on them because he/she was focused on the actual sick patients. So they think all medicine does is treat minor ailments and hence an AI can easily replace it.
does it not make sense to let a robot handle all the minor ailments?

if a bulk of patients are insignificant little symptom/diagnoses against medical standards, why would you not want those people to just to to a kiosk that can diagnose them instead of your office.



the self driving car shiit keeps coming up. they essentially had to program the car to fukking "see". the problem is far more complex than a medical diagnosis.
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post 1596703301 01-30-2020, 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted By AltarOfPlagues⏩
does it not make sense to let a robot handle all the minor ailments?

if a bulk of patients are insignificant little symptom/diagnoses against medical standards, why would you not want those people to just to to a kiosk that can diagnose them instead of your office.



the self driving car shiit keeps coming up. they essentially had to program the car to fukking "see". the problem is far more complex than a medical diagnosis.
I don't really get this self driving car argument others are peddling... Googles's self driving car did 1 + million miles on public roads without a single accident using a machine learning algorithm, and this was years ago. Of course in the infancy in the technology they are going to have some accidents, but they are still already better drivers and make better decisions than most people.

It's had something like 30 minor accidents, and one where it was at fault in 8+ million miles logged. Accidents would go down massively if all cars were self driving, not just because they're better but also because they can have data fed to each other about positions of other cars near them. Imagine if every car was self driving, it wouldn't even need to see, each car would be feeding cars in it's vicinity data about it's position, speed, everything you can think of. In fact, if all cars were self driving there's a good chance accidents would nearly be eliminated entirely, or at least in accident situations the cars can crunch numbers in milliseconds and take the best course of action.. one of the most powerful things about machines is that they can read the data, and formulate the optimal course of action in milliseconds... something humans simply can't do.

Make nearly any human drive a million miles and they will have at least one accident where they are at fault. (data that we have shows on average humans cause crashes 4.2x per million miles)
post 1596703761 01-30-2020, 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted By SurgeonBrah⏩
Will a machine be able to take the hand of a dying patients wife and comfort them? Will they be able to break the news to a 48 year old Woman diagnosed with Stage 4 breast cancer that despite all surgery and adjunct therapy she likely won't live to see her sons 21's birthday?
rudimentary 2000's era chatbots wildly outclass the bedside manner of the average surgeon.

this is your idea? that human surgeons won't be replaced because of their EMPATHY?

if ur kid was getting operated on would your first question be "who is the most empathetic surgeon here?!"
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post 1596704081 01-30-2020, 10:37 AM
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Originally Posted By AltarOfPlagues⏩
rudimentary 2000's era chatbots wildly outclass the bedside manner of the average surgeon.

this is your idea? that human surgeons won't be replaced because of their EMPATHY?

if ur kid was getting operated on would your first question be "who is the most empathetic surgeon here?!"
Aye, A lot of surgeons are god complex ****wads. Source? My wife works with them.
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post 1596704701 01-30-2020, 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted By ocelo7⏩
doctors can think outside the box, computers cant.
maybe some, but vast majority follow an algorithm aka medical guidelines
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post 1596705181 01-30-2020, 10:52 AM
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the biggest problem with using machine learning in early cancer detection is the snails-pace with with medical practitioners and regulatory bodies will adopt it.

case in point, the fukkin goobers in this thread

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post 1596705691 01-30-2020, 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted By AltarOfPlagues⏩
rudimentary 2000's era chatbots wildly outclass the bedside manner of the average surgeon.

this is your idea? that human surgeons won't be replaced because of their EMPATHY?

if ur kid was getting operated on would your first question be "who is the most empathetic surgeon here?!"
You just sound ignorant and full of resentment.
Originally Posted By JoshSP1985⏩
Aye, A lot of surgeons are god complex ****wads. Source? My wife works with them.
Not justifying it, but wish you could see where this comes from. Saving a life with just your hands and skills is pretty neat. Where otherwise someone would just not have made it, and no one else but you could have done it at that moment, and a thousand things could have gone wrong, but you made sure they didn't. Obviously other specialties do that do, but with surgery its very apparent, very visual and often very dramatic. That is why humility is even more respected in the inner circles, as it should be.
post 1596706101 01-30-2020, 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted By BloodFireDeath⏩
You just sound ignorant and full of resentment.


Not justifying it, but wish you could see where this comes from. Saving a life with just your hands and skills is pretty neat. Where otherwise someone would just not have made it, and no one else but you could have done it at that moment, and a thousand things could have gone wrong, but you made sure they didn't. Obviously other specialties do that do, but with surgery its very apparent, very visual and often very dramatic. That is why humility is even more respected in the inner circles, as it should be.
its neat to save lives with your hands and its even neater to prevent the need for surgery because you were open minded to new technologies.


how much push back did semmelweiss get when he advised his colleagues to wash their hands after handling cadavers?


dogma must be proportional to money spent on bona fides
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post 1596706481 01-30-2020, 11:08 AM
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Originally Posted By AltarOfPlagues⏩
rudimentary 2000's era chatbots wildly outclass the bedside manner of the average surgeon.

this is your idea? that human surgeons won't be replaced because of their EMPATHY?

if ur kid was getting operated on would your first question be "who is the most empathetic surgeon here?!"
Empathy is just one of many components. But yes, it is crucial. Youre not taking your kid to the dickhead surgeon are you? No matter how respected they are.

You are acting as if lawsuits dont exist. Humans are entitled little chits. They want explanations, reassurance, comfort, empathy, justice.
People google symptoms and think they know better lmao, meanwhile there are guidelines that help us. How does AI follow guidelines btw? They are just a guide, not rigid

Classic example, guy wants antibiotics and is furious that he isnt getting them as he googled and fully thinks he needs them
post 1596706651 01-30-2020, 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted By AltarOfPlagues⏩
its neat to save lives with your hands and its even neater to prevent the need for surgery because you were open minded to new technologies.


how much push back did semmelweiss get when he advised his colleagues to wash their hands after handling cadavers?


dogma must be proportional to money spent on bona fides
Bro. Choose better examples. How is technology gonna prevent The need for surgery? Your robot gonna tell the fat chick to stop eating and avoid gallstones?
Robot gonna prevent abdominal aneurism leaks? How about preventing diabetics eating like chit and getting amputated?

What is this wizard technology
post 1596706661 01-30-2020, 11:11 AM
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LMFAO I never knew medical professionals were such crybabies.

Keep telling them how computers are going to take EVERYONE'S jobs and they'll make it all about themselves as an excuse to throw a tantrum.

Sorry Dr. Timmy, your job isn't safe.

Might be safe for longer than others, but ultimately you medical professionals will be replaced just like everyone else.

Just that everyone else hasn't so strongly deluded themselves into thinking they're so irreplaceable.

If anything this thread is more like a study on the egos of medical professionals.

The computers will take over, the only thing you have control over is how much you cry about it.
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post 1596706681 01-30-2020, 11:11 AM
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Im an older guy and have been in technology and security for almost 25 years. Im in upper management for IT in a large global company. Im on several research and technology boards. I've been on boards for AI, machine learning, robotics and Quantum computing (as it relates to Quantum encryption). I am on these boards and have a front seat to these technologies because they have a significant impact on our ability to proved a competitive advantage for our customers...

The information in this thread is ridiculous and I couldnt make it past a few pages.The vast majority dont even appear to know how AI works/functions. I would bet there isnt one person in this thread that could technically outline how a simple instance of AI OPs works from a technical perspective...I can assure you AI/Machine learning is already FAR beyond what most people can conceive. When you add in Quantum computing we are ALL dinosaurs (Me included). If I was to mention what was being worked on 99% of the people in this thread would call me a liar. Im under NDA so I wont be going down that road .We are on the verge of a monumental shift that no one will see coming.

Just a few years back we thought Quantum computing was "impossible". Google, ***, etc all have active clusters. The Chinese government is already testing lasers with quantum encryption to communicate...That means the US Governments had it for a decade and is a late model operating methodology. Its only a matter of a few decades before AI/Robotics/Quantom computing meld together.

If people think doctors/lawyers are untouchable, they will be surprised. I worked on one case study that applied AI to the medical and 75% of the costs were reduced. Thats basically Nirvana for both political parties. Despite being outdated at that point the medical field will not be able to resist the politics....Doctors will be slowly phased out but for decades to come they will still be required. The longer we move forward in time their function will be closer to a Walmart door greeter than a physician. That isnt speculation - That is a direct comment from a Doctor that was involved in the case study.

If you want a "safe" career you will have to be involved in the humanities (Pastor/Art/Counseling)..There are jobs that will go first and jobs that will go last. I regularly speak at conferences and schools and this is the topic I broach at every school I speak at...
post 1596706781 01-30-2020, 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted By mandarino⏩
Bro. Choose better examples. How is technology gonna prevent The need for surgery? Your robot gonna tell the fat chick to stop eating and avoid gallstones?
Robot gonna prevent abdominal aneurism leaks? How about preventing diabetics eating like chit and getting amputated?

What is this wizard technology
thats not what anyone is saying ITT and thats not what i've said. I've said off top that for the foreseeable future we will need doctors to stitch people up and plumbers to clean pipes.

for medical diagnoses there is already proof that machine learning outmods humans. thats not remotely surprising. it can access and process orders of magnitude more data.

the biggest obstacle to adoption of machine learning tools in the medical industry is dogmatic medical professionals.
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post 1596707231 01-30-2020, 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted By AltarOfPlagues⏩
thats not what anyone is saying ITT and thats not what i've said. I've said off top that for the foreseeable future we will need doctors to stitch people up and plumbers to clean pipes.

for medical diagnoses there is already proof that machine learning outmods humans. thats not remotely surprising. it can access and process orders of magnitude more data.

the biggest obstacle to adoption of machine learning tools in the medical industry is dogmatic medical professionals.
I feel you. I have no doubt that AI will take over. But not anytime soon, which seems to be agreed upon by most itt. 100-200 years perhaps.
I claim that we may be cyborgs by that time as well. Its plausible.

There are a few in here essentially trying to convince us that this chit is imminent, now, like 40 years. Cmon son
post 1596707571 01-30-2020, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted By mandarino⏩
Bro. Choose better examples. How is technology gonna prevent The need for surgery? Your robot gonna tell the fat chick to stop eating and avoid gallstones?
Robot gonna prevent abdominal aneurism leaks? How about preventing diabetics eating like chit and getting amputated?

What is this wizard technology
You have to have some sort of mental disability.

Maybe in your delusional fantasy land doctors tell patients to stop eating like ****, then the patients do a complete 180 and ketoveganOMAD.

Here in reality patients don't listen to what doctors have to say.

I don't get what your point is, but even more puzzling is your lack of understanding things most middle school kids would have no problem grasping.

Your argument style is as follows:

1. Say computers couldn't do a good job at something humans aren't so good at. Even though the real world is rife with examples of just that.

2. Ask people to answer the most ridiculous questions. If they don't play ball with your stupidity you use that to somehow convince yourself that you're right. The reality is some things don't deserve to be dignified with responses. So when you ask questions and "hear crickets" as you say- might have to consider the possibility that your question isn't worth a serious response.

Timmy.
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Originally Posted By Dave22reborn
At least it will thunderstorm tonight, and we know how they feel about water. :)
^^^Racist police officer who also cries about how racism doesn't exist, also cries reverse racism and typifies the stupidity of the racist right, referring to black people as "they" and regurgitating racist stereotypes.
post 1596707611 01-30-2020, 11:21 AM
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#322
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Originally Posted By mandarino⏩
I feel you. I have no doubt that AI will take over. But not anytime soon, which seems to be agreed upon by most itt. 100-200 years perhaps.
I claim that we may be cyborgs by that time as well. Its plausible.

There are a few in here essentially trying to convince us that this chit is imminent, now, like 40 years. Cmon son
you have like a 1990s concept of what machine learning is. it started "taking over" like 10 years ago. it is imminent.

If you are imagining a robot that can cook you dinner, thats robotics or something. this is computers that will demolish you in specific modes of increasing complexity and decreasing specificity. starting with chess, then jeopardy questions, then driving cars and so on.

driving a car down the road and seeing a duck or a paper bag or a child or a traffic cone, and then making a decision is a difficult thing for a human to make a computer do (and now- for a computer to teach itself to do). prescribing blood thinners to a patient with a bmi of 50 is much easier.
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post 1596707861 01-30-2020, 11:24 AM
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Originally Posted By AltarOfPlagues⏩
you have like a 1990s concept of what machine learning is. it started "taking over" like 10 years ago. it is imminent.
It isnt imminent its already here..I believe it was Google that claimed 70% of all human interactions would be handled by AI bots (specifically chat bots) by 2019. The last stat I heard was that we hit 83% in December..

People have no clue when they are engaging with an AI fueled bot anymore..The company I work for has had AI/Machine learning in place for about three years now. I engage with AI Ops daily making business decisions and improving customer service. I bet not a single one of my internal customers realizes they are impacted by continuous improvement from AI...

You can literally go on-line and buy AI in a "white box" at this point (depending on your industry).
post 1596707871 01-30-2020, 11:24 AM
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Originally Posted By mandarino⏩
I feel you. I have no doubt that AI will take over. But not anytime soon, which seems to be agreed upon by most itt. 100-200 years perhaps.
I claim that we may be cyborgs by that time as well. Its plausible.

There are a few in here essentially trying to convince us that this chit is imminent, now, like 40 years. Cmon son
Once again this threads resident manchild has to go spouting off ridiculous nonsense in some poor attempt to save face.

So you concede this will all likely be a reality, then say some stupid exaggerative stuff to appear as if you're not completely surrendering?

Also who here said in forty years?

Did that happen, or is it just you being you again?
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Originally Posted By Dave22reborn
At least it will thunderstorm tonight, and we know how they feel about water. :)
^^^Racist police officer who also cries about how racism doesn't exist, also cries reverse racism and typifies the stupidity of the racist right, referring to black people as "they" and regurgitating racist stereotypes.
post 1596708021 01-30-2020, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted By MBisonSon⏩
You have to have some sort of mental disability.

Maybe in your delusional fantasy land doctors tell patients to stop eating like ****, then the patients do a complete 180 and ketoveganOMAD.

Here in reality patients don't listen to what doctors have to say.

I don't get what your point is, but even more puzzling is your lack of understanding things most middle school kids would have no problem grasping.

Your argument style is as follows:

1. Say computers couldn't do a good job at something humans aren't so good at. Even though the real world is rife with examples of just that.

2. Ask people to answer the most ridiculous questions. If they don't play ball with your stupidity you use that to somehow convince yourself that you're right. The reality is some things don't deserve to be dignified with responses. So when you ask questions and "hear crickets" as you say- might have to consider the possibility that your question isn't worth a serious response.

Timmy.
Again, i ask basic thing that are deemed good medical practice. How will AI handle those competencies - autonomy, justice, maleficence etc.

I believe it was you who said that you are not a future man and cant invent something that isnt here yet. Thats fair enough. Im on your side, i agree AI will take over. Maybe we will be cyborgs too. I dont get your issue.

Just like i am surprised by the lack of AI facts i know (i admit), you would be surprised how much info there is out there on communication in medicine. Have you ever heard the phrase - the doctor as a drug?

Trying to have a normal convo here, you are just being jumpy and annoying tbh
post 1596708151 01-30-2020, 11:29 AM
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#326
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Originally Posted By TappingTheZen⏩
This is absolutely no different to your lack of knowledge of A.I though.

You keep saying you understand machine learning, but from your posts after the last few pages it's clear you really have and many others have no clue how machine learning works. You clearly think you do, but the actual mechanism by which it works you clearly don't grasp, and to have a valuable opinion in this discussion, this understanding is essential.

I don't understand medicine like you, but i do understand the field i work in. The key component of machine learning is that the programmer doesn't NEED to program the possibilities, and doesn't need to have any knowledge on the field, he simply needs to program the learning algorithm and throw data at it, a human can even help guide the learning to speed things up but it's not strictly necessary. It works in EXACTLY the same way as a human brain does for learning, it's just more primitive at the moment. You keep saying you understand this, but by the questions you're asking (like how can a computer make decisions if there's multiple options etc), it's painfully obvious you don't to anyone who's actually written some form of machine learning algorithm

As an example, google literally wrote a deep learning algorithm that watched 1000's of hours of youtube videos, and learned about the content in the videos from watching them just like a human would (but better). This was over 5 years ago aswell, so consider what they will be able to do 50 years in the future.

I'm not gonna bother to make a long ass post like before because it will fall on deaf ears, but all i'm seeing in this thread is a lot of misinformation regarding machine learning/A.I, and doctors trying to cope. Machines will take over pretty much every job one day, your profession is a skilled one will be one of the last to go and it probably won't happen during your career, so i don't know why you're coping so hard... just enjoy your life, and be thankful you have the intellect to pursue such a sought after and skilled career. To have such a huge degree of arrogance to think for sure your job is forever immune from computers, that work in the same way as the human brain is honestly laughable though.... especially when you consider the internet has only been widely available for 30 years.. consider the advancements that could be made in the next 50 years.

It may not be able to handle the emotional side of comforting patients etc, but one day it will definately make better medical decisions unless there's armageddon in the next 100 years (unless a.i is the cause, of course)
You've repeated the same points that I already knew. I took a more simplified approach to AI because that is what is potentially going to be available in our generation.
Originally Posted By AltarOfPlagues⏩
does it not make sense to let a robot handle all the minor ailments?

if a bulk of patients are insignificant little symptom/diagnoses against medical standards, why would you not want those people to just to to a kiosk that can diagnose them instead of your office.
I've only made 3 new HIV diagnosis and 1 of them was a young person coming in with a cold. Turns out it was new onset HIV in its acute phase. I got a weird vibe and decided to poke more into their social history and went ahead and tested and viola. Just an example and it applies to many simple issues. Usually nothing is wrong. But "simple complaints" can also be something serious and there is 0 hard science on differentiating it.

More than half the time, our clinical approach is based off of someone's general appearance. That's a skill you develop as you gain experience.


Your kiosk theory also doesn't work out in real life.Who exactly is taking the history? Doing the physical exam? Even the simplest of issues meet a hard barrier of logistic problems that you can't answer.
the self driving car shiit keeps coming up. they essentially had to program the car to fukking "see". the problem is far more complex than a medical diagnosis.
Once again, making a diagnosis is NOT an issue in medicine in 2020. And if your robot surgeon is going to be operating, I sure as hell hope it can see better than a human once it comes across variant anatomy and can make decisions on what to do AND the owner of the robot is willing to go to court and be sued into oblivion once the robot punctures the aorta due to malfunction.

You think a jury will look kindly upon errors made by a robot that is owned by a perceived greedy company? Even if you had your supergod AI here today, market acceptance would take decades.
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post 1596708201 01-30-2020, 11:29 AM
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"debugging" self driving cars is innovation in unknowable ways. the computer is learning how to model euclidean space and modify it. yada yada yada in the future a laparoscopic surgeons tool is just a tiny self driving car.
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post 1596708221 01-30-2020, 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted By MBisonSon⏩
It's cause your question is stupid.

BRB give me detailed schematics on machines that may possibly exist in the future.

If you can't do that then you're wrong

Who do I sound like right now?

BRB let me go invent the machine to prove you wrong.

What a ****ing Bermuda Triangle of logic this thread is.
Invent away. This is stating that you are speculating. Just like i am speculating that we may be cyborgs

Im not even debating the fact that AI will take over in 100s of years. I admit defeat just like you admit defeat by not knowing how that will be done, as is stated in this quoted statement.
Lets just leave it at that then
post 1596708321 01-30-2020, 11:31 AM
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Originally Posted By Hardlifter9⏩
You've repeated the same points that I already knew. I took a more simplified approach to AI because that is what is potentially going to be available in our generation.


I've only made 3 new HIV diagnosis and 1 of them was a young person coming in with a cold. Turns out it was new onset HIV in its acute phase. I got a weird vibe and decided to poke more into their social history and went ahead and tested and viola. Just an example and it applies to many simple issues. Usually nothing is wrong. But "simple complaints" can also be something serious and there is 0 hard science on differentiating it.

More than half the time, our clinical approach is based off of someone's general appearance. That's a skill you develop as you gain experience.


Your kiosk theory also doesn't work out in real life.Who exactly is taking the history? Doing the physical exam? Even the simplest of issues meet a hard barrier of logistic problems that you can't answer.


Once again, making a diagnosis is NOT an issue in medicine in 2020. And if your robot surgeon is going to be operating, I sure as hell hope it can see better than a human once it comes across variant anatomy and can make decisions on what to do AND the owner of the robot is willing to go to court and be sued into oblivion once the robot punctures the aorta due to malfunction.

You think a jury will look kindly upon errors made by a robot that is owned by a perceived greedy company? Even if you had your supergod AI here today, market acceptance would take decades.
you are case in point why the medical community would rather people die than adopt a new tool for early cancer screening because they dont understand it.
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post 1596708571 01-30-2020, 11:34 AM
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Originally Posted By Scarrdbutsmartr⏩
Im an older guy and have been in technology and security for almost 25 years. Im in upper management for IT in a large global company. Im on several research and technology boards. I've been on boards for AI, machine learning, robotics and Quantum computing (as it relates to Quantum encryption). I am on these boards and have a front seat to these technologies because they have a significant impact on our ability to proved a competitive advantage for our customers...

The information in this thread is ridiculous and I couldnt make it past a few pages.The vast majority dont even appear to know how AI works/functions. I would bet there isnt one person in this thread that could technically outline how a simple instance of AI OPs works from a technical perspective...I can assure you AI/Machine learning is already FAR beyond what most people can conceive. When you add in Quantum computing we are ALL dinosaurs (Me included). If I was to mention what was being worked on 99% of the people in this thread would call me a liar. Im under NDA so I wont be going down that road .We are on the verge of a monumental shift that no one will see coming.

Just a few years back we thought Quantum computing was "impossible". Google, ***, etc all have active clusters. The Chinese government is already testing lasers with quantum encryption to communicate...That means the US Governments had it for a decade and is a late model operating methodology. Its only a matter of a few decades before AI/Robotics/Quantom computing meld together.

If people think doctors/lawyers are untouchable, they will be surprised. I worked on one case study that applied AI to the medical and 75% of the costs were reduced. Thats basically Nirvana for both political parties. Despite being outdated at that point the medical field will not be able to resist the politics....Doctors will be slowly phased out but for decades to come they will still be required. The longer we move forward in time their function will be closer to a Walmart door greeter than a physician. That isnt speculation - That is a direct comment from a Doctor that was involved in the case study.

If you want a "safe" career you will have to be involved in the humanities (Pastor/Art/Counseling)..There are jobs that will go first and jobs that will go last. I regularly speak at conferences and schools and this is the topic I broach at every school I speak at...
Quoted for truth.

The biases and overconfidence that make doctors/surgeons ITT so sure they won’t be replaced are the very reasons why humans are going to be replaced
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