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Forum ยป Decline of Christianity is causing the decline of the west
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Thread: Decline of Christianity is causing the decline of the west

post 1613877261 08-18-2020, 02:46 AM
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Originally Posted By ModernMazdak⏩
Agreed op. The autists of the Enlightenment saw fit to kill god, but not one of them in their staggering intelligence had the foresight to see what that would usher in. The European question since then for centuries has literally only been how to replace god. There is no solution but to return to the only principle that worked.
How exactly did it "work" so well before the enlightenment - considering that Western Europe at that time was a backwards hell hole?
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post 1613877341 08-18-2020, 02:48 AM
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Originally Posted By brosapiens⏩
You do understand that the Bible has to explain things in such a way that humans can understand, right?
Fun fact: if you read the Old Testament in Hebrew you will see that they way it was given to us has nothing to do with the English translation. English cannot express what Hebrew can. I only read some passages in a word-for-word, verbatim translation to English and it's eye opening.
Human physiology has not significantly changed. Had the bible provided the right physical notions about the universe, humans could have learned them. How did humans come to discover all of this otherwise? Of course humans are capable of understanding the theory of relativity. It is actually an elementary and obvious thing in retrospect. The truth is the bible was written by men from an ancient time before the nature of the universe was as understood as it is now. That's the simple fact you really can't get around. The bible gives no answers to modern ethical questions either. How will we deal with genetic engineering? AI? Brain computer interfaces and the possible download of consciousness? Biological immortality? Cloning? It is completely agnostic on these issues because these issues weren't fathomed by the men who wrote the stories.

The future will hold many other bizarre ethical dilemmas that we cannot even imagine yet as a species. The bible will not have the answer. Because, again, it was written by a bunch of people a really long time ago.

Religion is an ancient meme that societies have found beneficial for coercing the population into following laws, collaborating, and allowing them to avoid the existential horror of being alive.

It is neither necessary nor sufficient for a prosperous and functional society, and at some point, it may become detrimental if people are stuck in their old ways and refuse to try to formulate new ethical frameworks for the problems of the future.
post 1613877461 08-18-2020, 02:54 AM
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Originally Posted By wincel⏩
Human physiology has not significantly changed. Had the bible provided the right physical notions about the universe, humans could have learned them. How did humans come to discover all of this otherwise? Of course humans are capable of understanding the theory of relativity. It is actually an elementary and obvious thing in retrospect. The truth is the bible was written by men from an ancient time before the nature of the universe was as understood as it is now. That's the simple fact you really can't get around. The bible gives no answers to modern ethical questions either.How will we deal with genetic engineering? AI? Brain computer interfaces?It is completely agnostic on these issues because these issues weren't fathomed by the men who wrote the stories.
When you reduce those things to their basic meanings you will understand that the Bible indeed talked about such things albeit in simpler words and examples.
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post 1613877511 08-18-2020, 02:55 AM
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Originally Posted By brosapiens⏩
When you reduce those things to their basic meanings you will understand that the Bible indeed talked about such things albeit in simpler words and examples.
No they didn't. Show me where the bible discussed AI.
post 1613877551 08-18-2020, 02:57 AM
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Originally Posted By wincel⏩
No they didn't. Show me where the bible discussed AI.
AI is not a problem in itself. I can make a dumb AI in 30 lines of code.
The implications of AI come when it is used to manipulate people or when it is used as a ruling entity.
Once this is achieved you can see parallels between Biblical topics and the repercussions of AI.

You seem like a pretty smart guy but you need to be more rational and less emotional about things.
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post 1613877621 08-18-2020, 02:59 AM
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Christainity is stronger than ever and it helped cause this mess.

People dont believe the bible anymore, thats the problem.
post 1613877671 08-18-2020, 03:01 AM
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Originally Posted By brosapiens⏩
AI is not a problem in itself. I can make a dumb AI in 30 lines of code.
The implications of AI come when it is used to manipulate people or when it is used as a ruling entity.
Once this is achieved you can see parallels between Biblical topics and the repercussions of AI.

You seem like a pretty smart guy but you need to be more rational and less emotional about things.
What about the possibility of true AI? As in, an intelligent being created by humans? The bible says nothing about this. I will again ignore your personal attack.
post 1613877821 08-18-2020, 03:05 AM
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Originally Posted By wincel⏩
What about the possibility of true AI? As in, an intelligent being created by humans? The bible says nothing about this. I will again ignore your personal attack.
True AI?
Lol. An "intelligent" being using A.I. is a walking computer. Might look like a human but so do NPCs in video games.

Also, how did I attack you? LMAO
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post 1613878171 08-18-2020, 03:17 AM
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Originally Posted By brosapiens⏩
True AI?
Lol. An "intelligent" being using A.I. is a walking computer. Might look like a human but so do NPCs in video games.

Also, how did I attack you? LMAO
So you don't believe a true intelligence could exist as a computer program? What if we could make one though? The bible doesn't really tell us how to deal with such an entity.
post 1613878191 08-18-2020, 03:18 AM
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Originally Posted By wincel⏩
So you don't believe a true intelligence could exist as a computer program?
Define true intelligence.

Also the Bible is not an encyclopedia.
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post 1613878201 08-18-2020, 03:19 AM
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Originally Posted By brosapiens⏩
Define true intelligence.

Also the Bible is not an encyclopedia.
An intelligence indistinguishable from human intelligence. A computer that consistently passes the Turing test. Yeah but the word of God should have some kind of ethical framework for answering the questions humanity would face, right? Why wouldn't it offer guidance? And you still evaded the question about special relativity and God. I'm not going to let that one go until you provide an answer.
post 1613878271 08-18-2020, 03:21 AM
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Originally Posted By wincel⏩
An intelligence indistinguishable from human intelligence.
Assuming someone was put in charge of creating a "true intelligence" computer program.

How would he test it to confirm that it is indeed indistinguishable from human intelligence?
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post 1613878301 08-18-2020, 03:22 AM
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Originally Posted By brosapiens⏩
Assuming someone was put in charge of creating a "true intelligence" computer program.

How would he test it to confirm that it is indeed indistinguishable from human intelligence?
By interacting with it. How do you know that I am not an elaborate computer program?
post 1613878421 08-18-2020, 03:25 AM
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Originally Posted By wincel⏩
By interacting with it. How do you know that I am not an elaborate computer program?
This implies that I consider you intelligent.
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post 1613878551 08-18-2020, 03:30 AM
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Originally Posted By brosapiens⏩
This implies that I consider you intelligent.
How do you define intelligence?
post 1613878621 08-18-2020, 03:31 AM
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Originally Posted By wincel⏩
How do you define intelligence?
You just feel it, don't you?
The question is how do you synthesize that feeling into code?
And more important, how do you test that code?
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post 1613878771 08-18-2020, 03:35 AM
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Originally Posted By brosapiens⏩
You just feel it, don't you?
The question is how do you synthesize that feeling into code?
And more important, how do you test that code?
I told you how. You interact with it. If there is no way to distinguish between it and a human intelligence, it must be equivalent.
post 1613878791 08-18-2020, 03:36 AM
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Originally Posted By wincel⏩
I told you how. You interact with it. If there is no way to distinguish between it and a human intelligence, it must be equivalent.
This implies that you should ask all the questions in the world. Calculate all possible reactions.
This is an infinite number of tasks.
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post 1613878841 08-18-2020, 03:39 AM
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Originally Posted By brosapiens⏩
This implies that you should ask all the questions in the world. Calculate all possible reactions.
This is an infinite number of tasks.
It just has to satisfy you sufficiently. For example, you don't know that anyone around you is intelligent, but you take it as true. They could all be programs. You haven't exhaustively checked them. That's why I say equivalent and not equal. They are equivalent under the test. Just like how 1 and 3 are equivalent in that they are both odd numbers. They aren't the same thing, but they are equivalent in the sense of being odd vs being even. If some AI is indistinguishable under all the tests people do to try to tell it apart from an intelligence, it may as well be called an intelligence. It would be able to write novels, act, fall in love, appear to feel pain, sing, do math, philosophically reason, have political beliefs, etc. Ancient religions have no answer to how we would deal with such entities.

And we're going to have them pretty soon imo.
post 1613878991 08-18-2020, 03:43 AM
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Originally Posted By wincel⏩
It just has to satisfy you sufficiently. For example, you don't know that anyone around you is intelligent, but you take it as true. They could all be programs. You haven't exhaustively checked them. That's why I say equivalent and not equal. They are equivalent under the test. Just like how 1 and 3 are equivalent in that they are both odd numbers. They aren't the same thing, but they are equivalent in the sense of being odd vs being even. If some AI is indistinguishable under all the tests people do to try to tell it apart from an intelligence, it may as well be called an intelligence. It would be able to write novels, act, fall in love, appear to feel pain, sing, do math, philosophically reason, have political beliefs, etc.Ancient religions have no answer to how we deal with such entities.
Again. Religous texts are not encyclopedias. If they included everything that can potentially exist they would be infinitely long.
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post 1613879011 08-18-2020, 03:43 AM
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Originally Posted By brosapiens⏩
Again. Religous texts are not encyclopedias. If they included everything that can potentially exist they would be infinitely long.
So we need to look beyond the bible then for formulating our ethics, correct? And we also need to look beyond it for understanding the universe. And there's also this pesky issue of the new information being incompatible with what is stated in the bible. (Which you still have not addressed...)
post 1613879041 08-18-2020, 03:44 AM
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Originally Posted By wincel⏩
So we need to look beyond the bible then for formulating our ethics, correct?
Our ethics regarding what? Computers?
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post 1613879121 08-18-2020, 03:46 AM
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Originally Posted By brosapiens⏩
Our ethics regarding what? Computers?
I think he's talking about the ethical state of a non human but equivalent intelligence

Ie should AI have rights and can non humans have personhood etc
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post 1613879131 08-18-2020, 03:47 AM
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Originally Posted By brosapiens⏩
Our ethics regarding what? Computers?
Any number of uniquely modern ethical questions, such as genetic engineering, cloning, AI, etc. Here's another funny example. The quran and bible both indirectly ban interest. But our understanding of economics and the time value of money has led most to abandon this interpretation. Nothing in the bible says anything about complex financial derivatives and the ethical nature of them either as these are relatively recent inventions in terms of human existence. This is because even the basic ideas of these things did not exist back then. The bible doesn't answer questions about the ethics of intellectual or digital property. There are a lot of things the bible is not equipped to answer. At best, it is incomplete. At worst, it is incorrect (as I argue with how it conflicts with special relativity). All of this means we have outgrown it. It is time to look to richer frameworks to build our notions of ethics and law and to describe our models of the universe. The bible was a rough first draft of an everchanging endeavor.
post 1613879211 08-18-2020, 03:48 AM
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Originally Posted By Slayermanlet⏩
I think he's talking about the ethical state of a non human but equivalent intelligence

Ie should AI have rights and can non humans have personhood etc
Imo, no. Those computers will never have a conscience and will never break out of what their programming limits them to be. They would be fake people.
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post 1613879301 08-18-2020, 03:50 AM
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Originally Posted By brosapiens⏩
Imo, no. Those computers will never have a conscience and will never break out of what their programming limits them to be. They would be fake people.
If something is fake but good enough that you can't tell it apart from a real thing, how will you know it is fake really? In physics, the entire notion of distinguishability is inherently tied to how you can describe any difference between objects. For example, every electron in the universe is exactly the same. There is no way to tell them apart. We often talk loosely about different numbers of electrons, but this is just a heuristic observed at the scales we exist. More fundamentally, the number of electrons in a region of space itself isn't even fixed. We now have an interpretation where there is just "the electron field", and a certain propensity for stuff to be there when you look. Point being that fundamentally, you really cannot tell any two electrons apart. They are truly indistinguishable. How you know things are different absolutely matters to you operationally being able to call them different.

If you have some notion of intelligence or consciousness or w/e, and a robot simulates it to sufficient level that no human can tell it apart from any other human, for all practical purposes, we may consider it to be equivalent. As such, we probably ought to give it the same rights, etc. But that's a separate ethical question. My main point is the bible doesn't tell us how to deal with any of this.
post 1613879481 08-18-2020, 03:56 AM
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Originally Posted By wincel⏩
If something is fake but good enough that you can't tell it apart from a real thing, how will you know it is fake really?
Why is it important that I know if it's a fake?
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post 1613879511 08-18-2020, 03:56 AM
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Originally Posted By brosapiens⏩
Imo, no. Those computers will never have a conscience and will never break out of what their programming limits them to be. They would be fake people.
With machine learning their programming doesn't "limit" in the sense that it does with traditional software

We dont know exactly now, but a general AI could be a few decades away, it could surpass us as the superior intelligence on planet earth. The point isn't that they would be people but equal or superior to people, and we would have no way of knowing that they were not conscious - we don't know whether consciousness is emergent etc and have no way to qualify it

Ancients could not have imagined this. Their ethics was rooted in the social and technological life of their times. Although some wisdom is timeless, ethics has to evolve/innovate in some areas too
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Originally Posted By brosapiens⏩
Why is it important that I know if it's a fake?
Because otherwise, you can't conclusively claim it's a fake. If it smells like a duck, sounds like a duck, looks like a duck, feels like a duck, and tastes like a duck, how do you know it isn't a duck?

I used to hate fake tits, but they are getting better at them, and it's almost to the point where you can't even tell anymore. So now I just fap to it. Even if they are probably fake, there's no way for me to tell. Those big titty Japanese chicks seem so legit. I know it's incredibly unlikely that's natty, but damn. So I fap to it anyway. I can't distinguish between the real and the fake. The way they jiggle even looks the same.
post 1613879641 08-18-2020, 03:59 AM
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Originally Posted By Slayermanlet⏩
With machine learning their programming doesn't "limit" in the sense that it does with traditional software

We dont know exactly now, but a general AI could be a few decades away, it could surpass us as the superior intelligence on planet earth. The point isn't that they would be people but equal or superior to people, and we would have no way of knowing that they were not conscious - we don't know whether consciousness is emergent etc and have no way to qualify it

Ancients could not have imagined this. Their ethics was rooted in the social and technological life of their times. Although some wisdom is timeless, ethics has to evolve/innovate in some areas too
Even machine learning is limited by its purpose.
A game breaker would be a machine learning algorithm that is specialized in learning machine learning purposes.
Those models would be fed then to another AI that is specialized in defining parameters for machine learning algorithms according to their purpose.
Those models would then be fed to farms of servers that would basically use machine learning to learn everything.
A recursive AI system if you will.


Still ... all AIs as of now are simple programs if you think of it.
They need a strongly defined set of rules and of outcomes in order to function.
I don't think we'll live long enough to see fluid AI.
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