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Forum » Lately i 've been thinking that human beings dont really have a choice about anything
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Thread: Lately i 've been thinking that human beings dont really have a choice about anything

post 1626833853 12-28-2020, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted By SirAlastairCook⏩
sounds like rape.
It starts when you're born, you don't even have that choice. You are just thrown here with no instructions. I mean religious people can claim there are instructions but those are just man made. So you're supposed to just figure it out and if it goes wrong, you're responsible for everything. Lame.
post 1626833873 12-28-2020, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted By Yoopwat⏩
Prove it
The nature of this discussion has went far over your head Yoopwat.
post 1626833903 12-28-2020, 02:27 PM
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At the present moment, you cannot do anything to change your genes

And it's extremely difficult to change your environment depending on what kind of resources you have and what opportunities come to you
post 1626833993 12-28-2020, 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted By Seamanbeast⏩
The nature of this discussion has went far over your head Yoopwat.
Pro tip, you can’t.
post 1626834163 12-28-2020, 02:31 PM
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Originally Posted By Yoopwat⏩
Pro tip, you can’t.
Prove to me that you exist and that you aren't a figment of my imagination. Then once you prove that to me, prove to me that talking about determinism is a waste of thought processes as you originally claimed.
post 1626834303 12-28-2020, 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted By Yoopwat⏩
Literally about as pointless a thought process as this whole “life is a simulation” argument, its so vague and due to that completely impossible to define or prove. For every single thing that happens anywhere you can just label it as “fate” if you want, it doesn’t mean it has any intellectual content. And that’s not to say I agree or disagree.
I don't think it's pointless. Consider what OP said in the OP about not judging others as a result of this epiphany. If more people thought like this, and acted upon these thoughts, we would have a more compassionate world. In order to show compassion, I think there first needs to be a level of respect and understanding. Many people do not extend kindness and understanding to others and instead say things like "I have no sympathy for x people".

The Bible, whether you are an adherent or not, offers us a lot of ancient wisdom that we should consider. Consider the following:

"I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, not the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill;but time and chance happeneth to them all."
post 1626834673 12-28-2020, 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted By Yoopwat⏩
Prove it
Would be pointless to prove it. Wouldnt change the outcome of anything.


I get it, it feels good to think that you have control about everything that happens in your life. Feels good when you achieve something because it feels like it was your achievement and your hardwork that took you there.

At the same time, its easy to feel anger and disgust at a person that commits a horrible crime.


And TBH, as i just recently started thinking about these ideas and actually researching them, it would be very pretentious of me to think that i can just "prove" it to anybody. I cant, and i dont think if i could id be interested in doing it anyway.


It was only today that i learnt that what i discussed in the first post its actually called "determinism", and it has been talked about since thousands of years ago. To even try to prove it would be pointless and stupid.
"The flowers bloom, then wither... The stars shine and one day become extinct. This earth, the sun, the galaxies and even the big universe, someday will be destroyed. Compared with that, the human life is only a blink, just a little time. In that short time - people are born, laugh, cry, fight, are injured, feel joy, sadness, hate someone, love someone. All in just a moment. And then, are embraced by the eternal sleep called death."
post 1626835173 12-28-2020, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted By Seamanbeast⏩
Prove to me that you exist and that you aren't a figment of my imagination. Then once you prove that to me, prove to me that talking about determinism is a waste of thought processes as you originally claimed.
I choose not to thanks. It’s a load of contrived half baked ****e.
post 1626835333 12-28-2020, 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted By Yoopwat⏩
I choose not to thanks. It’s a load of contrived half baked ****e.
So you hate philosophy, that's fine, but why bother to come into the thread and share your disdain for it? Maybe you would be more at home in a thread about incels or tiktok.
post 1626835663 12-28-2020, 02:47 PM
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Originally Posted By Seamanbeast⏩
So you hate philosophy, that's fine, but why bother to come into the thread and share your disdain for it? Maybe you would be more at home in a thread about incels or tiktok.
Because I can. You sound quite mad considering I said I neither agreed nor disagreed with OPs concept. It’s just up there with having a discussion about whether god is the colour blue.
post 1626835923 12-28-2020, 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted By Yoopwat⏩
Because I can. You sound quite mad considering I said I neither agreed nor disagreed with OPs concept. It’s just up there with having a discussion about whether god is the colour blue.
Well then I guess most thought to you is a waste of time and energy. That would explain why you do things simply because "you can". I'm not mad, but you are a strange individual.
post 1626836233 12-28-2020, 02:53 PM
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Originally Posted By Seamanbeast⏩
Well then I guess most thought to you is a waste of time and energy. That would explain why you do things simply because "you can". I'm not mad, but you are a strange individual.
For such a free thinker you’re making some rather child like assumptions.
post 1626836543 12-28-2020, 02:58 PM
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Originally Posted By Ken-O⏩
Dont think thats what the blackpill stands for.

And its not inconsistent. Maybe chemical reactions, like every single thing on this earth. Doesnt matter, its still fun, its still enjoyable. Feeling your emotions is what keeps us human.

Being madly in love, being heartbroken, those are two sides of the same coin, you cant have one without the other. To me thats what makes life worth living.
Won't even lie, I came into this thread unprepared and have 0 problem admitting that. I never talk about this stuff, so I don't have a fully developed viewpoint that I've rested on, and I will possibly even cross my own previous opinions if this thread continues to gain traction. I am all over the place in this thread and chit is flying over my head here left and right.

Blackpill comment aside, you are quoted on the post 99 that "Everything is pointless." (Post 99)

If everything is pointless, there's no purpose(which is what I assumed blackpilled sort of meant...the realization of that...ive been wrong before though), so how do you whip up a purpose of "love and affection" if there's no purpose. I'm enjoying this thread, and I'm with you on 99% of your posts. Its just this small window where I believe free will has some room to manipulate a life.
Hi
post 1626836623 12-28-2020, 02:59 PM
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If our choices are the product of our genetics and environment and all our choices are fixed, what would happen if you made a choice (in let's say your second life) that put you in a different environment and therefore changes your life? You wouldn't be the same person anymore. So how can you be certain that we would make the same choices over a 100 lifetimes?
post 1626836953 12-28-2020, 03:03 PM
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Originally Posted By illah⏩
If our choices are the product of our genetics and environment and all our choices are fixed, what would happen if you made a choice (in let's say your second life) that put you in a different environment and therefore changes your life? You wouldn't be the same person anymore. So how can you be certain that we would make the same choices over a 100 lifetimes?
You can't change your choices, because your brain (all of the molecules and chemistry that entails) is what creates the "you". The world you were born into and outside forces that "you" grow and respond to are the other part of the equation. If you change either of those variables you are no longer yourself.
post 1626837033 12-28-2020, 03:04 PM
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Originally Posted By CougarP01⏩
Won't even lie, I came into this thread unprepared and have 0 problem admitting that. I never talk about this stuff, so I don't have a fully developed viewpoint that I've rested on, and I will possibly even cross my own previous opinions if this thread continues to gain traction. I am all over the place in this thread and chit is flying over my head here left and right.

Blackpill comment aside, you are quoted on the post 99 that "Everything is pointless." (Post 99)

If everything is pointless, there's no purpose(which is what I assumed blackpilled sort of meant...the realization of that...ive been wrong before though), so how do you whip up a purpose of "love and affection" if there's no purpose.I'm enjoying this thread, and I'm with you on 99% of your posts. Its just this small window where I believe free will has some room to manipulate a life.
Well, i guess it just means enjoy the ride while it lasts.

At the end if we achieve total hapiness (whatever that is), it wont matter, but it doesnt mean we didnt fully experience it and let it embrace us when we had it.

I guess to say it in different words, we really have no choice on whether we achieve hapiness or not, whatever happens will be the result of a chain of events that started billions of years ago. But if we do achieve happiness, then may as well enjoy it.


So basically have hope. Hope that this chain of events throws us a few beers while we are conscious beings and not just stardust flying galaxies away from here
"The flowers bloom, then wither... The stars shine and one day become extinct. This earth, the sun, the galaxies and even the big universe, someday will be destroyed. Compared with that, the human life is only a blink, just a little time. In that short time - people are born, laugh, cry, fight, are injured, feel joy, sadness, hate someone, love someone. All in just a moment. And then, are embraced by the eternal sleep called death."
post 1626837133 12-28-2020, 03:05 PM
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Originally Posted By Seamanbeast⏩
You can't change your choices, because your brain (all of the molecules and chemistry that entails) is what creates the "you". The world you were born into and outside forces that "you" grow and respond to are the other part of the equation. If you change either of those variables you are no longer yourself.
Define a “choice” please.
post 1626837223 12-28-2020, 03:06 PM
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Originally Posted By Yoopwat⏩
Define a “choice” please.
Any thought or course of action.
post 1626837333 12-28-2020, 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted By CougarP01⏩
If everything is pointless, there's no purpose(which is what I assumed blackpilled sort of meant...the realization of that...ive been wrong before though), so how do you whip up a purpose of "love and affection" if there's no purpose. I'm enjoying this thread, and I'm with you on 99% of your posts. Its just this small window where I believe free will has some room to manipulate a life.
It's possible that a belief is true, yet harmful for some.

A bad analogy would be - We know how to create nuclear bombs... but it would be a bad idea to create them.

For most people, having knowledge of determinism will be a negative impact on their life. Most people should disregard the thought from their lives entirely and live as if they have free will and not think about it any further.
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post 1626837413 12-28-2020, 03:09 PM
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Originally Posted By Seamanbeast⏩
Any thought or course of action.
No I mean define “free choice”
post 1626837473 12-28-2020, 03:10 PM
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For all my misc philosophers help me out with this one:

I agree with the OPs statement and determinism etc etc. However after hundreds of hours of meditation I’ve come to realize that “thoughts” come from absolutely nothing. When deep in meditation I can watch a thought emerge from complete nothingness. It has zero source, even though normally we think it does. They are not sequential at ALL. Many enlightened beings also say this and go much deeper with this. I can see this be the 1 thing that is in conflict with deterministic thinking. Almost like they are coming from an independent, higher source. What do you guys think
post 1626837503 12-28-2020, 03:10 PM
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Originally Posted By FailedPotential⏩
It's possible that a belief is true, yet harmful for some.

A bad analogy would be - We know how to create nuclear bombs... but it would be a bad idea to create them.

For most people, having knowledge of determinism will be a negative impact on their life. Most people should disregard the thought from their lives entirely and live as if they have free will and not think about it any further.
Post content to username checks out. Many people have succumbed to the darkness of nihilism and never came back, weak minds do not do well with the knowledge that free will is illusory.
post 1626837733 12-28-2020, 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted By Sevenlionz⏩
For all my misc philosophers help me out with this one:

I agree with the OPs statement and determinism etc etc. However after hundreds of hours of meditation I’ve come to realize that “thoughts” come from absolutely nothing. When deep in meditation I can watch a thought emerge from complete nothingness. It has zero source, even though normally we think it does. They are not sequential at ALL. Many enlightened beings also say this and go much deeper with this. I can see this be the 1 thing that is in conflict with deterministic thinking. Almost like they are coming from an independent, higher source. What do you guys think
Ex nihilo, nihilo fit. Nothing comes from nothing. If you understand the true meaning of nothingness, then it is only logical that nothing can come from it.
post 1626837823 12-28-2020, 03:14 PM
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I tend to agree op. Although I’ve meandered in my thoughts on this subject throughout life, I ultimately believe what you’re saying in the op. I haven’t read thru the replies and I’m always open for a different perspective.
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post 1626837933 12-28-2020, 03:15 PM
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Originally Posted By Sevenlionz⏩
For all my misc philosophers help me out with this one:

I agree with the OPs statement and determinism etc etc. However after hundreds of hours of meditation I’ve come to realize that “thoughts” come from absolutely nothing. When deep in meditation I can watch a thought emerge from complete nothingness. It has zero source, even though normally we think it does. They are not sequential at ALL. Many enlightened beings also say this and go much deeper with this. I can see this be the 1 thing that is in conflict with deterministic thinking. Almost like they are coming from an independent, higher source. What do you guys think
I've experienced this too, and especially moments before sleep... I'll get flashes of images that are so out there and outside of my normal life, I wonder where they came from.

I don't believe this means it's anything unexplainable though... but I am open to the idea that there is more than we know. In fact it would be silly to live a life thinking you knew all the variables, then lived life as such. Like the analogy of a blind man feeling an elephant, touches the trunk, thinks it's a snake.. another days touches the elephants ear... thinks it's a, I dunno. Anyway, ya get the point, we don't have a full picture of things, and we don't know all the variables that exist.

Every way you slice it, the best outcome is to always live as though you have free will, and to make that your belief... outside certain moments of pondering and such
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post 1626837963 12-28-2020, 03:15 PM
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True free will is an inherently flawed concept. If naturalism is correct, then we are simply the product of the universe on a predetermined path. We did not choose our genes, or the environment that shapes us. We are biological robots following our programming.

Even if religion is correct and we are more than the sum of our physical parts, that is an even greater argument against free will IMO. You did not create your own soul/consciousness. So the "personality" of your soul that effects the decisions you made here on earth is also predetermined. You presumably also did not choose which body your soul inhabits either. This is basically just passing the buck of nature/nurture of naturalism into the spiritual realm, but with an additional layer of predestination. Additionally, if you believe in a creator god like most modern people do, this is inherently antithetical to the concept of free will.
post 1626838153 12-28-2020, 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted By hackerwacker⏩
True free will is an inherently flawed concept. If naturalism is correct, then we are simply the product of the universe on a predetermined path. We did not choose our genes, or the environment that shapes us. We are biological robots following our programming.

Even if religion is correct and we are more than the sum of our physical parts, that is an even greater argument against free will IMO. You did not create your own soul/consciousness. So the "personality" of your soul that effects the decisions you made here on earth is also predetermined. You presumably also did not choose which body your soul inhabits either. This is basically just passing the buck of nature/nurture of naturalism into the spiritual realm, but with an additional layer of predestination. Additionally, if you believe in a creator god like most modern people do, this is inherently antithetical to the concept of free will.
But what is everyone claiming “free will” to be? Genuinely curious because this sounds like a huge cop out
post 1626838203 12-28-2020, 03:18 PM
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Originally Posted By Sevenlionz⏩
For all my misc philosophers help me out with this one:

I agree with the OPs statement and determinism etc etc. However after hundreds of hours of meditation I’ve come to realize that “thoughts” come from absolutely nothing. When deep in meditation I can watch a thought emerge from complete nothingness. It has zero source, even though normally we think it does. They are not sequential at ALL. Many enlightened beings also say this and go much deeper with this. I can see this be the 1 thing that is in conflict with deterministic thinking. Almost like they are coming from an independent, higher source. What do you guys think
No philosopherbrah here but my opinion on it is that most thoughts come from the subconscious. At some point and time you’ve seen or experienced something that lead to the later thought to take place. It’s hard for me to imagine they’d come from nothing at all. The topic is def up for debate though.
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post 1626838383 12-28-2020, 03:19 PM
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Originally Posted By Yoopwat⏩
But what is everyone claiming “free will” to be? Genuinely curious because this sounds like a huge cop out
Free Will - noun
the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.
post 1626838443 12-28-2020, 03:20 PM
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Originally Posted By Yoopwat⏩
But what is everyone claiming “free will” to be? Genuinely curious because this sounds like a huge cop out
It's not a cop out for anything, it's objective reality as I see it. What is your definition of free will that could still exist given the facts of reality I laid out?
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