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Forum » Is God necessary for a civilized society?
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Thread: Is God necessary for a civilized society?

post 1678807773 03-12-2023, 12:58 AM
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Originally Posted By Achilles87⏩
Pretty easy task. Just name a single country, and then the answer to OP's question is no.
We already know the response you want to hear (Mao Zedong) but even societies like his were not atheistic as the rulers such as Mao deemed themselves to be worshiped as god.
Originally Posted By Paul
It's easy to be an atheist, and living how you please to, it's a childish way of growing through life.
i'm a deist so this hardly applies to me, but one thing I notice is people like to bash on 21st century atheists, but ignore the atheists from 100, 200-500 years ago. They were pariahs, outcasts shunned by society or outright killed for their lack of belief. Yet they were the "redpilled" (or red-elixired, since capsules didn't exist 500 year ago, lol) individuals that dared to think outside the box of what was the normal train of thought in their society was, often at the cost of their livelihood/lives. Is that not admirable?
post 1678807893 03-12-2023, 01:04 AM
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Originally Posted By Maestro⏩
We already know the response you want to hear (Mao Zedong) but even societies like his were not atheistic as the rulers such as Mao deemed themselves to be worshiped as god.


i'm a deist so this hardly applies to me, but one thing I notice is people like to bash on 21st century atheists, but ignore the atheists from 100, 200-500 years ago. They were pariahs, outcasts shunned by society or outright killed for their lack of belief. Yet they were the "redpilled" (or red-elixired, since capsules didn't exist 500 year ago, lol) individuals that dared to think outside the box of what was the normal train of thought in their society was, often at the cost of their livelihood/lives. Is that not admirable?
No they didn't. That's American propaganda. Neither Mao nor Stalin wanted to be worshipped as gods. And they weren't.
post 1678807983 03-12-2023, 01:07 AM
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Originally Posted By TaiMaiSchutze⏩
No they didn't. That's American propaganda. Neither Mao nor Stalin wanted to be worshipped as gods. And they weren't.
I'd like to see an article contrary to this.
post 1678808023 03-12-2023, 01:09 AM
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Originally Posted By Maestro⏩
This would make perfect sense if religious people didn't behave the exact same way. Nothing you said is exclusive to atheists. The only difference is when religious people do it, they get to absolve themselves of the guilt of being degenerate by begging for forgiveness through prayer, and that doesn't make them any better than the atheist.
Religious people who are genuine about their faith will usually strive to do better, even though they are constantly struggling with temptation and sin, just like anybody else. The difference is a lot of atheists will sin with impunity and even take pride in it. Without a reference point of morality more obscure kinds of degeneracy are accepted into every day life. Hence the clown world we are currently in.
post 1678808513 03-12-2023, 01:33 AM
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Originally Posted By Pumped⏩
You just admitted you don't understand why murder and ****philia is bad without a book telling you. Scary.
Nah. The point was the more society determines what's moral via consensus the more degenerate and hedonistic that society will become.

Our innate morality was given to us by God via conscience. It's what separates us from animals. When people deny the existence of God, they're ultimately making it easier for themselves and others to sin without consequence. We all have an inherent conscience, it's our rejection of God that spawns unnatural desires, unhealthy appetites, all variety of malice and malevolence.

I'm not saying morals are exclusive to religious people and all atheists are bad people either. I'm saying when a society collectively rejects that which gave us morals, they will eventually embrace hedonism, declare degeneracy in all its forms as acceptable, and spiral into clown world.
post 1678809303 03-12-2023, 02:03 AM
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Originally Posted By umop3pisdn⏩
Nah. The point was the more society determines what's moral via consensus the more degenerate and hedonistic that society will become.

Our innate morality was given to us by God via conscience. It's what separates us from animals. When people deny the existence of God, they're ultimately making it easier for themselves and others to sin without consequence. We all have an inherent conscience, it's our rejection of God that spawns unnatural desires, unhealthy appetites, all variety of malice and malevolence.

I'm not saying morals are exclusive to religious people and all atheists are bad people either. I'm saying when a society collectively rejects that which gave us morals, they will eventually embrace hedonism, declare degeneracy in all its forms as acceptable, and spiral into clown world.
But society has been determining morality via consensus. Its how we got rid of slavery for instance, which the bible endorsed. I assume you don't believe slavery is moral, which would contradict the bible, so why do you think its immoral? If our innate morality was given to us by god why do we need to read a book to be moral? You literally admit that you would not know murder was bad without a book telling you so. That is scary. I don't need a book to know its bad and why, yet you claim moral virtue. lol
post 1678809953 03-12-2023, 02:38 AM
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Originally Posted By Pumped⏩
You literally admit that you would not know murder was bad without a book telling you so. That is scary. I don't need a book to know its bad and why, yet you claim moral virtue. lol
You keep saying that, but try comprehending my post you just quoted and come back to me when you have a clearer understanding. I'll even simplify it for you:

God gave us a conscience and thus a moral compass. Because of man's fallenness, we have a tendency to dull, corrupt or outright ignore our innate morality. Which leads to unnatural desires, unhealthy appetites, all variety of malice and malevolence.

The Bible is His word in physical form. If people used it as a point of reference and embraced it as gospel, society would have a greater chance of saying no to all forms of degeneracy that is constantly thrust upon it by the devil. It's not a matter of "I'm an empty emotionless shell and need a book to explain to me what's good or bad", like you're suggesting. It's a matter of society needing an anchor of morality in place of them deciding what's moral by consensus.

When we reject God, we are also rejecting the innate morality he gave us all. As a result making it easier to commit sin, accept degeneracy, and pursue a life of hedonism. I'm speaking in general terms. Of course the individual can be a moral person without believing in God, imo they're just more susceptible to sin that society deems acceptable (not illegal chit like murder or paedophilia), rather drag queen story hour, LGBT agendas, sexual fetishes/hardcore pornography etc.
post 1678810293 03-12-2023, 04:00 AM
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The Bible is there to reaffirm sin that we may not be sure about due to our fallen nature and imperfect logic. No one is free of sin, therefore it would be prudent to use the Bible as a reference point when uncertain.

For example, your government is pushing for sodomy to be taught in schools? Innate morality would tell us that's bad, but because of our fallenness we might be undecided and ultimately swayed to follow the worldly authority. But accepting God's word as law instead, we would be less likely to muddy the waters and make the mistake of allowing such degeneracy.

Again, speaking in general terms. Someone (like yourself) could be adamant in their stance against said degeneracy without following the Bible, of course.
post 1678810343 03-12-2023, 04:02 AM
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Originally Posted By umop3pisdn⏩
The bible is there to reaffirm sin that we may not be sure about due to our fallen nature and imperfect logic. No one is free of sin, therefore it would be prudent to use the Bible as a reference point when uncertain.

For example, your government is pushing for sodomy to be taught in schools. Innate morality would tell us that's bad, but because of our fallenness we might be undecided and ultimately swayed to follow the worldly authority. But accepting God's word as law instead, we would be less likely to muddy the waters and make the mistake of allowing such degeneracy.
I'm completely free from sin. I'm completely free from guilting sky bitches.
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post 1678810383 03-12-2023, 04:06 AM
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Originally Posted By Kev1972⏩
I'm completely free from sin. I'm completely free from guilting sky bitches.
It's a lot easier to be a degenerate, be surrounded by degeneracy, embrace hedonism and all temptations of the flesh when you believe for sure that everything you do is inconsequential and meaningless, yeah.

If you're satisfied with the current state of clown world then it's most likely you fit into it well. Why would you even bother pondering legitimate solutions for the rampant degeneracy?
post 1678810433 03-12-2023, 04:09 AM
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No. Only a majority white people.
post 1678810473 03-12-2023, 04:11 AM
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Originally Posted By umop3pisdn⏩
It's a lot easier to be a degenerate, be surrounded by degeneracy, embrace hedonism and all temptations of the flesh when you believe for sure that everything you do is inconsequential and meaningless, yeah.

If you're satisfied with the current state of clown world then it's most likely you fit into it well. Why would you even bother pondering legitimate solutions for the rampant degeneracy?
Most of the worlds degeneracy stems from religion. Human sacrifice, peedophilia, devil worship are all brought to you by "religious" people.
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post 1678810613 03-12-2023, 04:20 AM
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Originally Posted By TaiMaiSchutze⏩
So is anyone gonna post any definition of "God" followed by some concrete evidence it exists? I don't mean "The evidence is all around you." vague chit...I mean real hardcore evidence. I'd like to see how God factors into this universe too. How does God manipulate matter, space, and energy? Use equations. I want to see concrete math and experimental evidence to at least 7 sigma. No hand waving.
I know you mean well and I think you're quite smart - but any freemason or related order would think you're a complete fool, to say the least.
Originally Posted By Pumped⏩
I love how you presupposed the bible IS our anchor. Its not. We had the same morals thousands of years before the bible. You just admitted you don't understand why murder and ****philia is bad without a book telling you. Scary.
That's not true at all - otherwise people wouldn't be so opposed to the Christian Church.

For example, homosexuality is forbidden in Christianity as is interest - both things that are heavily pushed in our secular democracy/society - unless you're a fan of interest and homosexuality?
Originally Posted By TaiMaiSchutze⏩
No they didn't. That's American propaganda. Neither Mao nor Stalin wanted to be worshipped as gods. And they weren't.
So why are their pictures all over the place like they're saints or some sh*t?
Originally Posted By Kev1972⏩
Most of the worlds degeneracy stems from religion. Human sacrifice, peedophilia, devil worship are all brought to you by "religious" people.
Yeah, but which religion?
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post 1678810653 03-12-2023, 04:20 AM
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Originally Posted By Kev1972⏩
Most of the worlds degeneracy stems from religion. Human sacrifice, peedophilia, devil worship are all brought to you by "religious" people.
Just because people have used religion as a way to achieve evil doesn't mean Christianity itself is bad or degenerate.
post 1678810713 03-12-2023, 04:24 AM
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Originally Posted By umop3pisdn⏩
Just because people have used religion as a way to achieve evil doesn't mean Christianity itself is bad or degenerate.
I don't think it's inherently bad or degenerate. Just stupid and a waste of time.

It's been used for good and bad. But it's totally unnecessary.
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post 1678810723 03-12-2023, 04:24 AM
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Originally Posted By umop3pisdn⏩
Just because people have used religion as a way to achieve evil doesn't mean Christianity itself is bad or degenerate.
Which Christian church or denomination promotes sexuality, peadophilia, child/human sacrifice, and satanic ritual abuse?

These are all practised in the more 'esoteric' schools of thought that involve magic.
Originally Posted By Kev1972⏩
I don't think it's inherently bad or degenerate. Just stupid and a waste of time.

It's been used for good and bad. But it's totally unnecessary.
what you just described if a form of satanism.
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post 1678810833 03-12-2023, 04:27 AM
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Originally Posted By WiseOldApe⏩
Which Christian church or denomination promotes sexuality, peadophilia, child/human sacrifice, and satanic ritual abuse?

These are all practised in the more 'esoteric' schools of thought that involve magic.
You shall not put off the skimming of the first yield of your vats. You shall give Me the firstborn among your sons. 22:29 You shall do the same with your cattle and your flocks: seven days it shall remain with its mother; on the eighth day you shall give it to Me.

Exod 34:19 Every first issue of the womb is Mine, from all your livestock that drop a male as firstling, whether cattle or sheep. 34:20 But the firstling of an ass you shall redeem with a sheep; if you do not redeem it, you must break its neck. And you must redeem every firstborn among your sons. None shall appear before Me empty-handed.
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post 1678810873 03-12-2023, 04:28 AM
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Originally Posted By WiseOldApe⏩
Which Christian church or denomination promotes sexuality, peadophilia, child/human sacrifice, and satanic ritual abuse?

These are all practised in the more 'esoteric' schools of thought that involve magic.

what you just described if a form of satanism.
>Which Christian church or denomination promotes sexuality, peadophilia, child/human sacrifice, and satanic ritual abuse?

https://www.youtube.com/c/christcuckpastors
post 1678810893 03-12-2023, 04:28 AM
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Originally Posted By Kev1972⏩
You shall not put off the skimming of the first yield of your vats. You shall give Me the firstborn among your sons. 22:29 You shall do the same with your cattle and your flocks: seven days it shall remain with its mother; on the eighth day you shall give it to Me.

Exod 34:19 Every first issue of the womb is Mine, from all your livestock that drop a male as firstling, whether cattle or sheep. 34:20 But the firstling of an ass you shall redeem with a sheep; if you do not redeem it, you must break its neck. And you must redeem every firstborn among your sons. None shall appear before Me empty-handed.
Is that the old testament?
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post 1678810923 03-12-2023, 04:29 AM
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Originally Posted By WiseOldApe⏩
Is that the old testament?
It's the christian bible. You think there aren't fundamentalists out there that still interpret it literally?
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post 1678810953 03-12-2023, 04:33 AM
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Originally Posted By Kev1972⏩
It's the christian bible. You think there aren't fundamentalists out there that still interpret it literally?
The only "fundamentalist" group is Westboro Baptist Church. And they are a caricature.
post 1678810963 03-12-2023, 04:33 AM
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So hard to find this stuff....religious people are so virtuous...

https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/...inors-94664121



Polygamous 'prophet' leader had child brides, documents say

FLAGSTAFF, Ariz. -- The leader of a small polygamous group on the Arizona-Utah border had taken at least 20 wives, most of them minors, and punished followers who did not treat him as a prophet, newly filed federal court documents show.

The filing provides insight into what investigators have found in a case that first became public in August. It came as federal authorities charged three of the self-declared prophet's wives with kidnapping and impeding a foreseeable prosecution after eight girls associated with the group fled from state foster care.

Naomi Bistline and Donnae Barlow appeared in federal magistrate court in Flagstaff on Wednesday. They remain jailed and have court hearings scheduled next week. Moretta Rose Johnson is awaiting extradition from Washington state.

The FBI affidavit filed in the women’s case centers on Samuel Bateman, who proclaimed himself a prophet in 2019. Authorities wrote that Bateman orchestrated sexual acts involving minors and gave wives as gifts to his male followers, claiming to do so on orders from the “Heavenly Father.” The men supported Bateman financially and gave him their own wives and young daughters as wives.

Bateman, 46, has pleaded not guilty to state child abuse charges and federal charges of tampering with evidence. A trial on the federal charges is scheduled for January. He remains imprisoned in Arizona.
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post 1678811063 03-12-2023, 04:40 AM
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Originally Posted By Maestro⏩
I'd like to see an article contrary to this.
You can read about this:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mao_...sonality#Lin95

Neither Stalin nor Mao particularly liked the kind of worship they got and after a while, began to (rightly) suspect that those elevating them to god status were privately plotting to undermine them.
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Originally Posted By Kev1972⏩
It's the christian bible. You think there aren't fundamentalists out there that still interpret it literally?
I think that there's a difference between the old and new testament - especially when it comes to observe of certain rituals.

I'm not an expert (yet), but my understanding is that this HAD to be done prior to the arrival of Christ - with Christ's arrival and death on the cross, the Holy spirit was established on Earth for all.

Prior to that it was only prophets and very pious individuals who had a direct connection to God - now? Even I have a direct connection to Christ due to the Holy spirit.

Even you can do the same if you know how - I'm not talking about scripture and quoting that, I'm talking about having a REAL and tangible connection to God through Christ and the Holy Spirit.

For example the 10 commandments are to be observed no matter what, but I'm quite certain that certain rituals are no longer required..

This is not about whether you're a good man or a bad man based on your beliefs or what you've done in the past - this is about Christs blood being spilled on the cross that day to atone for YOUR sins.

Back in those days they'd sacrifice a goat at a specific time to atone for the people's sins.

Instead of having to sacrifice a lamb or goat - God send His only begotten son to Earth to die for OUR sins... why that's he is the Lamb of God.
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Originally Posted By Kev1972⏩
So hard to find this stuff....religious people are so virtuous...

https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/...inors-94664121



Polygamous 'prophet' leader had child brides, documents say

FLAGSTAFF, Ariz. -- The leader of a small polygamous group on the Arizona-Utah border had taken at least 20 wives, most of them minors, and punished followers who did not treat him as a prophet, newly filed federal court documents show.

The filing provides insight into what investigators have found in a case that first became public in August. It came as federal authorities charged three of the self-declared prophet's wives with kidnapping and impeding a foreseeable prosecution after eight girls associated with the group fled from state foster care.

Naomi Bistline and Donnae Barlow appeared in federal magistrate court in Flagstaff on Wednesday. They remain jailed and have court hearings scheduled next week. Moretta Rose Johnson is awaiting extradition from Washington state.

The FBI affidavit filed in the women’s case centers on Samuel Bateman, who proclaimed himself a prophet in 2019. Authorities wrote that Bateman orchestrated sexual acts involving minors and gave wives as gifts to his male followers, claiming to do so on orders from the “Heavenly Father.” The men supported Bateman financially and gave him their own wives and young daughters as wives.

Bateman, 46, has pleaded not guilty to state child abuse charges and federal charges of tampering with evidence. A trial on the federal charges is scheduled for January. He remains imprisoned in Arizona.
It’s not a “religious person” problem, it’s a people problem. I could find tons of examples of atheists doing terrible things as well. I know you absolutely despise religion and any concept of God at all so not really gonna waste my time trying to argue with you. Say whatever you want, but basically every single culture has realized the importance of establishing a relationship with our Divine Creator..from the hunter/gatherer tribes all the way up to our Founding Fathers(which I provided links to their views on the topic earlier in this thread). Anyone who says it isn’t important is basically saying “I’m right and almost every single person as well as every society the world has seen is wrong”.
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Originally Posted By jtaylor2010⏩
It’s not a “religious person” problem, it’s a people problem. I could find tons of examples of atheists doing terrible things as well. I know you absolutely despise religion and any concept of God at all so not really gonna waste my time trying to argue with you. Say whatever you want, but basically every single culture has realized the importance of establishing a relationship with our Divine Creator..from the hunter/gatherer tribes all the way up to our Founding Fathers(which I provided links to their views on the topic earlier in this thread). Anyone who says it isn’t important is basically saying “I’m right and almost every single person as well as every society the world has seen is wrong”.
Even when normalized to population, atheists commit fewer crimes per capita than religious people. Lots of people are wrong about stuff. Most of you would fail a physics test...
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Originally Posted By TaiMaiSchutze⏩
Even when normalized to population, atheists commit fewer crimes per capita than religious people. Lots of people are wrong about stuff. Most of you wouls fail a physics test...
Let me guess…that number is based on how many people in jail or prison say they’re religious.



Your second point is just typical atheist hubris.
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Originally Posted By jtaylor2010⏩
Let me guess…that number is based on how many people in jail or prison say they’re religious.



Your second point is just typical atheist hubris.
That's really the argument you're going with? So you think all those Christians in jail are really faking their belief and are somehow incognito atheists? So is this a religious country or not? How many incognito atheists are out there? Are you implying Christianity isn't as popular as it is?

No. It's a fact that most of you couldn't pass a physics test. Most people are highly uneducated.
post 1678811613 03-12-2023, 05:14 AM
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Originally Posted By TaiMaiSchutze⏩
That's really the argument you're going with? So you think all those Christians in jail are really faking their belief and are somehow incognito atheists? So is this a religious country or not? How many incognito atheists are out there? Are you implying Christianity isn't as popular as it is?

No. It's a fact that most of you couldn't pass a physics test. Most people are highly uneducated.
No, I’m saying lots of people turn to God when they end up in jail or prison. That doesn’t mean they had a meaningful relationship with God when they were out stealing cars or whatever else they were doing.

Not taking about the physics test comment, I’m talking about how you think you know better than all of the people and societies(practically every single one) that recognized the importance of having a relationship with God. And if you’re gonna to look at it that way, I can point out lots of people way smarter and more educated than you say you’re wrong about the topic. Also, people way smarter and more educated than you believe in God.
post 1678811663 03-12-2023, 05:19 AM
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Originally Posted By jtaylor2010⏩
No, I’m saying lots of people turn to God when they end up in jail or prison. That doesn’t mean they had a meaningful relationship with God when they were out stealing cars or whatever else they were doing.

Not taking about the physics test comment, I’m talking about how you think you know better than all of the people and societies(practically every single one) that recognized the importance of having a relationship with God. And if you’re gonna to look at it that way, I can point out lots of people way smarter and more educated than you say you’re wrong about the topic. Also, people way smarter and more educated than you believe in God.
I suppose. But how much do you think that would swing the numbers?

I mean we just have better data now. It was easier to believe in a god watching over us when we thought the Earth was flat and that absolute time made sense.
Anyway, this was never my argument. I'm just presenting some points. What I said is not an argument for or against atheism. It was more just notable data that contradicts that religious people are somehow less criminal. Here's what I'd like to see:
Originally Posted By TaiMaiSchutze⏩
So is anyone gonna post any definition of "God" followed by some concrete evidence it exists? I don't mean "The evidence is all around you." vague chit...I mean real hardcore evidence. I'd like to see how God factors into this universe too. How does God manipulate matter, space, and energy? Use equations. I want to see concrete math and experimental evidence to at least 7 sigma. No hand waving.
It should be easy for one of these more educated and intelligent people than me to produce this, right? One interesting fact about said people, of whom there are admittedly few of, is they usually don't proselytize. Because they know it is just a belief and not something they can prove.
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