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How could communism and Marxism actually work?
05-13-2024, 02:33 AM
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#121
- Bodhy
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Wincel, you still here brah?
I can honestly say I've never met someome who thinks Marxism is the best social philosophy to adopt and wants to implement it. I've met a few Marx fanboys around but they're mostly just idealistic nerdy eternal students and had no actual advice on practicality and implementation.
I always thought Communism was never implementable because it is too ideal. Plus, Hegel is a fukass. When you remove indiviudal incentives, and without incentive to work hard and have the higher income and goods, people won't want to put in more than the minimal effort. You like game theory, right? Doesn't game theory reveal how communism isn't feasible? 1000 hard workers means everyone is 1000 times better off, until someone realizes they can be a lazy chitbitch and reap the rewards of others hard work.
Then a second person realizes, and a third etc...
If you also remove private property, no one will want to look after it. Therefore you create a disincentive for its use. Then there's prices. How can a central planner determine or know all of the preferences of all persons in a nation?
Don't you need a dictatorship to force this to work? If someone can be lazy and still enjoy social equality with the rest, the gulag becomes a necessary motivator. Or if supply and demand is out of tune, the government has to intervene.
You can eliminate social inequality, but it will have to make us all equally miserable. How can communism actually work, and how do you propose to implement it without making society utterly depressing?
I can honestly say I've never met someome who thinks Marxism is the best social philosophy to adopt and wants to implement it. I've met a few Marx fanboys around but they're mostly just idealistic nerdy eternal students and had no actual advice on practicality and implementation.
I always thought Communism was never implementable because it is too ideal. Plus, Hegel is a fukass. When you remove indiviudal incentives, and without incentive to work hard and have the higher income and goods, people won't want to put in more than the minimal effort. You like game theory, right? Doesn't game theory reveal how communism isn't feasible? 1000 hard workers means everyone is 1000 times better off, until someone realizes they can be a lazy chitbitch and reap the rewards of others hard work.
Then a second person realizes, and a third etc...
If you also remove private property, no one will want to look after it. Therefore you create a disincentive for its use. Then there's prices. How can a central planner determine or know all of the preferences of all persons in a nation?
Don't you need a dictatorship to force this to work? If someone can be lazy and still enjoy social equality with the rest, the gulag becomes a necessary motivator. Or if supply and demand is out of tune, the government has to intervene.
You can eliminate social inequality, but it will have to make us all equally miserable. How can communism actually work, and how do you propose to implement it without making society utterly depressing?
Back off, Warchild.
Seriously.
05-13-2024, 02:56 AM
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#122
- ComradeLenin
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To me, Marxism is an umbrella term. No capitalist believes in going back to the good old days of pre depression capitalism using the ancient models of the first economists. Similarly, Marx's work, being from last century, lacks the nuance of modern economics. We have modern economic data and empirical evidence to drive welfare economics. Marxism as an economic model really is dead. Marxism as a political philosophy is alive and kicking. There is a distinction between the two.
Marx's economic policies are neither necessary nor sufficient to justify his political philosophy. One can reject the labor theory of value, while also agreeing that workers are very obviously exploited. Labeling myself a "communist" is simple meant to distinguish from what we currently have. It is very easy to see the flaws and unsustainability in our economic system.
Ironically, one of my favorite economists, Jeffrey Sachs, was notoriously labeled "Mr. Shock Therapy" and would never be called a Marxist in the economic sense. Yet, his political philosophy is very obviously Marxist in spirit. Sustainable development models are not Marxist-Leninist. Modern China has economists too, many of them largely following in the spirit of professor Sachs. Today's modern CPC represents a new breed of communism, integrating what we know about markets using modern economics with the same communist spirit to end poverty and hunger.
I also want to point out that communism never meant everyone was treated equally to that extreme and paid equally or that nobody had personal property. Those are distortions. The Soviet Union literally appropriated and redistributed farms to become personal property...
No, you do not even need a dictatorship. Look at the Kerala model as an example. There is no such requirement.
Reducing social inequality will not make everyone miserable. On the contrary, it would greatly improve society.
Marx's economic policies are neither necessary nor sufficient to justify his political philosophy. One can reject the labor theory of value, while also agreeing that workers are very obviously exploited. Labeling myself a "communist" is simple meant to distinguish from what we currently have. It is very easy to see the flaws and unsustainability in our economic system.
Ironically, one of my favorite economists, Jeffrey Sachs, was notoriously labeled "Mr. Shock Therapy" and would never be called a Marxist in the economic sense. Yet, his political philosophy is very obviously Marxist in spirit. Sustainable development models are not Marxist-Leninist. Modern China has economists too, many of them largely following in the spirit of professor Sachs. Today's modern CPC represents a new breed of communism, integrating what we know about markets using modern economics with the same communist spirit to end poverty and hunger.
I also want to point out that communism never meant everyone was treated equally to that extreme and paid equally or that nobody had personal property. Those are distortions. The Soviet Union literally appropriated and redistributed farms to become personal property...
No, you do not even need a dictatorship. Look at the Kerala model as an example. There is no such requirement.
Reducing social inequality will not make everyone miserable. On the contrary, it would greatly improve society.
05-13-2024, 03:06 AM
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#123
- Bodhy
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Originally Posted By ComradeLenin⏩
Thanks. I'll follow up this reading you have suggested.To me, Marxism is an umbrella term. No capitalist believes in going back to the good old days of pre depression capitalism using the ancient models of the first economists. Similarly, Marx's work, being from last century, lacks the nuance of modern economics. We have modern economic data and empirical evidence to drive welfare economics. Marxism as an economic model really is dead. Marxism as a political philosophy is alive and kicking. There is a distinction between the two.
Marx's economic policies are neither necessary nor sufficient to justify his political philosophy. One can reject the labor theory of value, while also agreeing that workers are very obviously exploited. Labeling myself a "communist" is simple meant to distinguish from what we currently have. It is very easy to see the flaws and unsustainability in our economic system.
Ironically, one of my favorite economists, Jeffrey Sachs, was notoriously labeled "Mr. Shock Therapy" and would never be called a Marxist in the economic sense. Yet, his political philosophy is very obviously Marxist in spirit. Sustainable development models are not Marxist-Leninist. Modern China has economists too, many of them largely following in the spirit of professor Sachs. Today's modern CPC represents a new breed of communism, integrating what we know about markets using modern economics with the same communist spirit to end poverty and hunger.
I also want to point out that communism never meant everyone was treated equally to that extreme and paid equally or that nobody had personal property. Those are distortions. The Soviet Union literally appropriated and redistributed farms to become personal property...
No, you do not even need a dictatorship. Look at the Kerala model as an example. There is no such requirement.
Reducing social inequality will not make everyone miserable. On the contrary, it would greatly improve society.
Marx's economic policies are neither necessary nor sufficient to justify his political philosophy. One can reject the labor theory of value, while also agreeing that workers are very obviously exploited. Labeling myself a "communist" is simple meant to distinguish from what we currently have. It is very easy to see the flaws and unsustainability in our economic system.
Ironically, one of my favorite economists, Jeffrey Sachs, was notoriously labeled "Mr. Shock Therapy" and would never be called a Marxist in the economic sense. Yet, his political philosophy is very obviously Marxist in spirit. Sustainable development models are not Marxist-Leninist. Modern China has economists too, many of them largely following in the spirit of professor Sachs. Today's modern CPC represents a new breed of communism, integrating what we know about markets using modern economics with the same communist spirit to end poverty and hunger.
I also want to point out that communism never meant everyone was treated equally to that extreme and paid equally or that nobody had personal property. Those are distortions. The Soviet Union literally appropriated and redistributed farms to become personal property...
No, you do not even need a dictatorship. Look at the Kerala model as an example. There is no such requirement.
Reducing social inequality will not make everyone miserable. On the contrary, it would greatly improve society.
But I still feel as the practical plan of implementation hasn't been offered. I'd want to know how we actually make the idea feasible in our society, increase happiness, reduce disparity, and still have incentives for productive work. How does it actually work, literally what do we change about our society right now?
Do you have the answer for this? Like, how do our day to days lives change from what we do now?
Back off, Warchild.
Seriously.
05-13-2024, 03:08 AM
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#124
- ComradeLenin
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Originally Posted By Bodhy⏩
Check out the SDG goals as an example of such a plan. It should be noted that the primary opposition to the global adoption of SDG is the United States, largely because it opposes the interests of under 100 very rich people.Thanks. I'll follow up this reading you have suggested.
But I still feel as the practical plan of implementation hasn't been offered. I'd want to know how we actually make the idea feasible in our society, increase happiness, reduce disparity, and still have incentives for productive work. How does it actually work, literally what do we change about our society right now?
Do you have the answer for this? Like, how do our day to days lives change from what we do now?
But I still feel as the practical plan of implementation hasn't been offered. I'd want to know how we actually make the idea feasible in our society, increase happiness, reduce disparity, and still have incentives for productive work. How does it actually work, literally what do we change about our society right now?
Do you have the answer for this? Like, how do our day to days lives change from what we do now?
05-13-2024, 06:38 AM
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#125
05-13-2024, 06:46 AM
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#126
- Dave22reborn
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Originally Posted By J.L.C.⏩
Communism and human nature don't go together.I see the concepts as philosophical rather than purely applied. But, either/both would require substantial evolution in human nature to have a chance at implementation.
05-13-2024, 06:53 AM
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#127
- Bodhy
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Originally Posted By J.L.C.⏩
Kind of what I've always thought. But Marxism and social theory is definitely not my strong suit so I'm open to arguments. I just think it's really just bad economic policy dressed up in fancy philosophical theory. Makes you wonder why there were refugees from communism, but not refugees from capitalism.I see the concepts as philosophical rather than purely applied. But, either/both would require substantial evolution in human nature to have a chance at implementation.
Plus, it involves people. In theory, it sounds like it assumes an idealised version of people. But the reality of people is far chittier. Cheap ass-holes who never pay back loans or tip. Rude ass-holes who cut in line or cut you off in traffic. Nasty people like miscers who laugh at other people's misfortune. Conspiracy theory idiots. Science-deniers. Evolution-deniers.
People are, sadly, fcking idiots. Marxism sounds like it works if you think about seizing the means of production with people who are well informed, figure out the best products to make and sell, and divide the earnings fairly. But that presumes there's never an ass-hole who will b lazy and still demand an equal share, or another ass-hole who demands stupid products be made that no one wants.
Humanity will never achieve unanimity in ideology or all believe in the greater good. How can you ever have a society without any selfish ass-holes?
Back off, Warchild.
Seriously.
05-13-2024, 07:11 AM
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#128
05-13-2024, 07:13 AM
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#129
- latverian41
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Fuk commies.
"it takes a wise man to know when he is in error and a noble man to admit to it"
05-13-2024, 07:33 AM
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#130
- Bushmaster
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Originally Posted By Bodhy⏩
YOU of all people, are probably the only poster on this entire site who not only takes that homebound drain on society's ass seriously, but actually seeks out his worthless opinion lol.Wincel, you still here brah?
So education.. very brain... most intellect.
It's a hot night. The mind races. You think about your knife: the only friend who hasn't betrayed you, the only friend who won't be dead by sunup. Sleep tight mates, in your quilted chambray night shirts.
05-13-2024, 08:00 AM
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#131
- BespokenBrah
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Originally Posted By latverian41⏩
Aren't you jewish? Anyone that jews hate are prolly the good guys.Fuk commies.
05-13-2024, 08:02 AM
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#132
Originally Posted By Bushmaster⏩
Drain on society types tend to take the sides of other drain on society types.YOU of all people, are probably the only poster on this entire site who not only takes that homebound drain on society's ass seriously, but actually seeks out his worthless opinion lol.
So education.. very brain... most intellect.
So education.. very brain... most intellect.
05-13-2024, 08:07 AM
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#133
- Bushmaster
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Originally Posted By Anachron⏩
Do those two make a pair or what though?Drain on society types tend to take the sides of other drain on society types.
The homebound incel who can't function in life, but still refuses to shut up about his intellectual prowess - and the coprophiliac who also refuses to STFU about his intellectual prowess.
You could not make this shiit up if you tried.
It's a hot night. The mind races. You think about your knife: the only friend who hasn't betrayed you, the only friend who won't be dead by sunup. Sleep tight mates, in your quilted chambray night shirts.
05-13-2024, 08:17 AM
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#134
Originally Posted By Bushmaster⏩
The coprophiliac also cannot function in real life - he is stuck having to defraud the koalaland government to fund his ongoing "studies", because he cannot hold down a real job for more than a week...Do those two make a pair or what though?
The homebound incel who can't function in life, but still refuses to shut up about his intellectual prowess - and the coprophiliac who also refuses to STFU about his intellectual prowess.
You could not make this shiit up if you tried.
The homebound incel who can't function in life, but still refuses to shut up about his intellectual prowess - and the coprophiliac who also refuses to STFU about his intellectual prowess.
You could not make this shiit up if you tried.
There is a reason why he is still "in uni", pursuing a soft science pseudointellectual PhD in his late thirties.
05-13-2024, 08:19 AM
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#135
05-13-2024, 08:21 AM
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#136
Originally Posted By Bodhy⏩
Refugees from capitalism present as impoverished and homeless people.Kind of what I've always thought. But Marxism and social theory is definitely not my strong suit so I'm open to arguments. I just think it's really just bad economic policy dressed up in fancy philosophical theory. Makes you wonder why there were refugees from communism, but not refugees from capitalism.
Plus, it involves people. In theory, it sounds like it assumes an idealised version of people. But the reality of people is far chittier. Cheap ass-holes who never pay back loans or tip. Rude ass-holes who cut in line or cut you off in traffic. Nasty people like miscers who laugh at other people's misfortune. Conspiracy theory idiots. Science-deniers. Evolution-deniers.
People are, sadly, fcking idiots. Marxism sounds like it works if you think about seizing the means of production with people who are well informed, figure out the best products to make and sell, and divide the earnings fairly. But that presumes there's never an ass-hole who will b lazy and still demand an equal share, or another ass-hole who demands stupid products be made that no one wants.
Humanity will never achieve unanimity in ideology or all believe in the greater good. How can you ever have a society without any selfish ass-holes?
Plus, it involves people. In theory, it sounds like it assumes an idealised version of people. But the reality of people is far chittier. Cheap ass-holes who never pay back loans or tip. Rude ass-holes who cut in line or cut you off in traffic. Nasty people like miscers who laugh at other people's misfortune. Conspiracy theory idiots. Science-deniers. Evolution-deniers.
People are, sadly, fcking idiots. Marxism sounds like it works if you think about seizing the means of production with people who are well informed, figure out the best products to make and sell, and divide the earnings fairly. But that presumes there's never an ass-hole who will b lazy and still demand an equal share, or another ass-hole who demands stupid products be made that no one wants.
Humanity will never achieve unanimity in ideology or all believe in the greater good. How can you ever have a society without any selfish ass-holes?
Evolution led to self-interest in humans. It'll take a long time for that to evolve, imo.
05-13-2024, 08:25 AM
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#137
- Bushmaster
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Originally Posted By Anachron⏩
LMAO!! I missed that one lol.The coprophiliac also cannot function in real life - he is stuck having to defraud the koalaland government to fund his ongoing "studies",because he cannot hold down a real job for more than a week...
There is a reason why he is still "in uni", pursuing a soft science pseudointellectual PhD in his late thirties.
There is a reason why he is still "in uni", pursuing a soft science pseudointellectual PhD in his late thirties.
It's a hot night. The mind races. You think about your knife: the only friend who hasn't betrayed you, the only friend who won't be dead by sunup. Sleep tight mates, in your quilted chambray night shirts.
05-13-2024, 09:01 AM
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#138
05-13-2024, 09:12 AM
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#139
- Fishman15
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Originally Posted By Bushmaster⏩
Those 2 sound like a couple of blue haired professors meeting at starbucks to discuss who's going to be the bottom tonight....YOU of all people, are probably the only poster on this entire site who not only takes that homebound drain on society's ass seriously, but actually seeks out his worthless opinion lol.
So education.. very brain... most intellect.
So education.. very brain... most intellect.
Hey Timmy, show us on the boy doll where the tampon goes...
05-13-2024, 09:56 AM
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#140
- fitnessislife
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They don't.
"At the core of liberalism is the spoiled child - miserable, as all spoiled children are, unsatisfied,
demanding, ill-disciplined, despotic and useless. Liberalism is a philosophy of sniveling brats."
- PJ O'Rourke
05-13-2024, 10:57 AM
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#141
- Bushmaster
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Originally Posted By Fishman15⏩
Wincel be like... "Hey Bodhy. you mind paying this time bro? My disability check hasn't hit the bank yet this month and I'm a little short..."Those 2 sound like a couple of blue haired professors meeting at starbucks to discuss who's going to be the bottom tonight....
It's a hot night. The mind races. You think about your knife: the only friend who hasn't betrayed you, the only friend who won't be dead by sunup. Sleep tight mates, in your quilted chambray night shirts.
05-13-2024, 11:03 AM
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#142
The problem with communism is how it's completely idealistic, commies will claim "true communism" hasn't been practiced because it always gets corrupted by the big government power vacuum. Government officials become all-powerful, so they wind up doing what leaders always do when they can easily oppress.
05-13-2024, 11:09 AM
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#143
05-13-2024, 11:12 AM
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#144
- Bushmaster
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Originally Posted By ~Hades~⏩
No! No! No dammit! It has to be wincel! It can ONLY be wincel!If only all the people who have been killed under socialist and communist regimes could give their input. Fuking moron.
Originally Posted By Bodhy⏩
Which is completely unlike wincel and his depth of real-world expertise.Wincel, you still here brah?
I can honestly say I've never met someome who thinks Marxism is the best social philosophy to adopt and wants to implement it. I've met a few Marx fanboys around but they're mostly just idealistic nerdy eternal students and had no actual advice on practicality and implementation.
I can honestly say I've never met someome who thinks Marxism is the best social philosophy to adopt and wants to implement it. I've met a few Marx fanboys around but they're mostly just idealistic nerdy eternal students and had no actual advice on practicality and implementation.
It's a hot night. The mind races. You think about your knife: the only friend who hasn't betrayed you, the only friend who won't be dead by sunup. Sleep tight mates, in your quilted chambray night shirts.
05-13-2024, 11:13 AM
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#145
- Stizzel
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Wow even tranny fukers know communism is retarded. Bolsheviks btfo
“It’s the bill of rights, not the bill of requests. Rights are not up for negotiations.” Thomas Massie, MAGA enemy #1
05-13-2024, 11:33 AM
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#146
- gregxy
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The founding fathers took great efforts to try and prevent the consolidation of power into the hands of a few. There are many "checks and balances", overlapping branches of government, division into states, separation of church and state, the 2nd amendment. Capitalism is part of this with, ideally, many small "independent agents" governed by natural selection. Capitalism fails when corporations form monopolies or bribe the government to favor them.
Marxists (and Muslims they have quite a bit in common) want to replace this with a single huge government. Central planing was a disaster. Even if the people that create this government are good, eventually some tyrant will take control. Humans and all animals are by nature lazy, without the a profit incentive no work will be done.
The marxists are drooling over the idea of killing the billionaires and taking their stuff. It won't work. The billionaires don't have billions of "goods" they billions in stocks and dollars. Attempting to "spend" this will do the same thing as printing money. Cause inflation.
Marxists should study eggs:
Don't put all your eggs in one basket and don't kill the goose that lays the golden eggs.
The difference between a corporation and a government is a government can put you in jail if you don't want their products.
Marxists (and Muslims they have quite a bit in common) want to replace this with a single huge government. Central planing was a disaster. Even if the people that create this government are good, eventually some tyrant will take control. Humans and all animals are by nature lazy, without the a profit incentive no work will be done.
The marxists are drooling over the idea of killing the billionaires and taking their stuff. It won't work. The billionaires don't have billions of "goods" they billions in stocks and dollars. Attempting to "spend" this will do the same thing as printing money. Cause inflation.
Marxists should study eggs:
Don't put all your eggs in one basket and don't kill the goose that lays the golden eggs.
The difference between a corporation and a government is a government can put you in jail if you don't want their products.
The difference between a winner and a loser is
that when a loser loses, he gives up. Moore's law crew.
05-13-2024, 11:34 AM
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#147
Originally Posted By JayJ350⏩
Sounds kinda like capitalism...The problem with communism is how it's completely idealistic, commies will claim "true communism" hasn't been practiced because it always gets corrupted by the big government power vacuum. Government officials become all-powerful, so they wind up doing what leaders always do when they can easily oppress.
05-13-2024, 11:35 AM
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#148
- Dave22reborn
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Originally Posted By Bushmaster⏩
Well, him, Patty and Wincel bonded over trannies and their love for the jab.YOU of all people, are probably the only poster on this entire site who not only takes that homebound drain on society's ass seriously, but actually seeks out his worthless opinion lol.
So education.. very brain... most intellect.
So education.. very brain... most intellect.
05-13-2024, 11:36 AM
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#149
05-13-2024, 11:40 AM
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#150
- Dave22reborn
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Originally Posted By J.L.C.⏩
Prove that it works, show me how human nature and communism go together.Solid post. Nonsensical, but solid.
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