The question Slow Sy very simply needs to answer is this:

Do people have a just claim to legal representation?

Can someone who cannot afford to pay privately rightfully and justly demand of the state a defense lawyer to represent them?

Yes/no?

whats the difference between natural rights and natural lights?

In a criminal case yes, if it's against the government then they will provide a public attorney. See how many cases public attorneys win against the government, should the government provide better attorneys if you can't afford it? Does the government provide a divorce lawyer or a public attorney in a civil case?

OK so you do have the right to someone else's services. We're just establishing whether that is possible or not. Sy seems to think it isn't. Thanks for confirming for us that it is.

Public defenders are employed by the government. You don't have the right to any service in the private sector.

Public doctors would also be employed by the government. What does this have to do with anything?

Public defenders are only provided by the government in cases against or by the government. The government also provides care if you are injured in their custody.

Thankless,

I am an attorney. What you have stated is not entirely accurate. For example, when a parent files a contempt petition in civil court for failure to pay child support, a defendant who cannot afford an attorney is not appointed a public defender. Instead a private attorney is appointed by the judge and is paid by the state (or works pro bono for the ethics hours). Usually private attorneys volunteer, especially new attorneys looking for experience. This also happens in criminal court as well.

Edit: Let me also add that here in Tennessee, a defendant in a parental rights termination case is also entitled to representation due to the nature of the allegations. So again, the judge will appoint a private attorney to represent the respondent in such a setting who cannot afford one and the state will pay for the services.

They volunteer, You don't have the right to a private attorneys services. Have you ever volunteered for anything? Do you think the people who benefit from your volunteer work have a right to your services?

why are you avoiding my question

Education is not zero sum.

Thankless,

A judge can certainly appoint a private attorney to an appropriate case. Only in certain instances may an attorney refuse under our rules of ethics.

Yes, I have received an order from a judge appointing me to represent a client in a civil contempt proceeding for failure to pay alimony. I am a private attorney. So, yes, in way they do. I am still compensated, but from the state for a set amount.

Hell, I have even seen a defendant ask the court for the appointment of a new private attorney when they have been dissatisfied with their current appointed, private attorney and succeed.

It comes with the territory. I am sure other attorneys here have witnessed or experienced the same thing. I have even seen it in general sessions court here in TN.

Just google "appointment of private attorney TN" and click on the first article. See also Rule 13 of our TN Supreme Court Rules, particularly SECTION 1 (b). You will see, private attorneys are indeed provided for in the rule.

"Bbbbbbbbbbbbut the state can't literally kick down a lawyers door in the middle of the night with a SWAT team, hogtie him and force him at gunpoint to represent someone therefore the right of counsel doesn't exist!!!!!"

-Sy2502

No thanks jeff, people should have private options

College education is not a right

If liberals end private education they will lose out on their 'must have a public education' insults. You don't want to go down that road.

The higher classes and ruling classes want to live parallel lives to the lower classes and pretty much never to have to come face to face with us, and private education is a way for their kids to live that way too, good luck with getting them to give it up.

If I was from a high class family I'd probably want the same thing.

Never said that, but we have already established you have reading comprehension issues.Well imagine that, if you want to call something a right, first you need to know the meaning of the word. Amazing uh? Nah, let's just throw words around regardless of the meaning, who cares...Examples?
No, my doctor knows what he's talking about.

So going back to how your free healthcare just like legal representation would work nothing like the right to legal representation.... oh right, you want to stay as far away from that as possible.

So you do want your "free healthcare" to work like legal representation? Wonderful! Then when you are sick you go to a doctor that treats people for free, and if one isn't available, you get to stay in line until one becomes available. It may take months because not many doctors want to do that job, so if you drop dead while waiting... oh bummer. We cool with that?

Charter schools destroy the OP's argument.

https://www.legalmatch.com/law-libra...vil-cases.htmlAnd.
https://www.legalmatch.com/law-libra...-attorney.html

The U.S. Constitution provides that you are entitled to representation by an attorney if the state is trying to deprive you of your liberty. This means that a court may be required to appoint a lawyer to represent you for free—or for a fee you can afford—if the crime you are charged with carries a jail sentence.

Civil contempt of court falls under that umbrella since it could carry a jail sentence.

Individuals who are determined to be eligible for court-appointed counsel do not have the right to choose who their attorney will be. However, they do have the right to have competent legal representation.

Examples of situations where people are compelled by the government to appear in court are:

criminal, probation violation and contempt proceedings (where there is a possibility that the person will be sentenced to serve time in jail);
civil commitment proceedings (where the person may be involuntarily committed for mental health treatment);
dependency (abuse & neglect) and termination of parental rights juvenile court proceedings (for some parents and some children who are the subject of these proceedings); and
juvenile delinquency proceedings in instances where the juvenile is alleged to have committed an act that would be a crime if the juvenile were an adult.


compelled by the government to appear in court
compelled by the government to appear in court
compelled by the government to appear in court
compelled by the government to appear in court
compelled by the government to appear in court
compelled by the government to appear in court
compelled by the government to appear in court
compelled by the government to appear in court



Another category of court-appointed lawyers consists of private attorneys who accept individual case assignments from the court. You volunteered to accept individual case assignments from the court to act as a paid public defender employed by the government. In cases where the defendant is compelled by the government to appear in court.

^^ Came back to post something like this ^^

When it's the government that wants to try you, and it's the government that made laws so byzantine that to get a fair trial you need a lawyer to figure them out, it makes sense that the government should pay for it. The Judiciary is a branch of government and indispensable to the functioning of the country. The country functions just fine without government healthcare, and healthcare is not a branch of government. So why should the government pay for it?

Oh right... free stuff.

He volunteered and agreed to take on individual case assignments from the court in cases where the defendant is compelled by the government to appear. e.g. criminal, probation violation and contempt proceedings (where there is a possibility that the person will be sentenced to serve time in jail);
civil commitment proceedings (where the person may be involuntarily committed for mental health treatment);
dependency (abuse & neglect) and termination of parental rights juvenile court proceedings (for some parents and some children who are the subject of these proceedings); and
juvenile delinquency proceedings in instances where the juvenile is alleged to have committed an act that would be a crime if the juvenile were an adult. Etc.


Why are you trying to make people believe private attorneys are being ordered to defend individuals in court without volunteering?

because thats exactly what happens if a volunteer or public defender isnt available to represent a defendant. there is actually good info here on the types of proceedings which the right to representation applies.

but that right applies REGARDLESS of whether or not there are volunteers or public defenders available for a defendant. if theyre not, like in small towns, then the court will involuntarily appoint a local attorney at their discretion.

volunteers and/or public defenders are not available 100% of the time

I would imagine the court date/hearing gets postponed if a public defender/volunteer private attorney is unavailable, They factor in their availability when setting court dates, which is partially why it can take months/years before your court date.

Please show me the law which states a court can order a private attorney to involuntarily act as a public defender without their consent?.

If there were no public defenders or volunteers available, then the courts would be backlogged into redundancy. You wouldn't see an army of attorneys being led into the court room with chains to practice against their will. No matter how much you would like to.

Don’t stick your nose into other people’s lives, OP.

the courts are already backlogged into near redundancy.

the courts will not simply postpone hearings and a trial and hope a volunteer shows up. defendants also have a right to aspeedytrial. if a PD is coming back from vacation in a week - maybe, but otherwise they'll move on and appoint another attorney.

the courts arent just mindless buffoons about it - if theres an indigent defendant who cant afford representation the courts will first look to the public defenders. if theres no public defender the court will look for volunteers. if there are no volunteers then the court will unilaterally appoint a local attorney who will literally be forced to represent the defendant or face serious disciplinary action by the state bar and monetary sanctions by the court.

thats how it works

i dont care if you believe me

"the courts are already backlogged into near redundancy"

I thought they went around town forcing unwilling attorneys to take on cases for the government, why are the courts backlogged? there are plenty of unemployed attorneys out there looking for work

Only 47 post scattered over a few years with a 2008 join date.


I’m just curious as heck, do you lurk here all the time or just pop back up after New Years reductions to workout or what?

What suddenly brings you to a thread?

I don't understand why it's such a problem to have a public and private option.

People who are too poor or lazy can rely on the govt for sub par care. People who work or save money can get better quality care by shopping around for better options.

I'd rather have choices than rely on the govt as the monopoly on quality of services. That is of course unless the govt happens to provide better services than a private business (can't think of any).