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08-03-2024, 08:10 PM
#1
There is Evidence to Suggest that the Judeans(Jews) and Israelites were Separate
peoples/nations/city-states that worshipped the same god.
so maybe black people are the real israelites. if semitic people could go to europe and become white, why couldn't they go to africa and become black?
modern day samaritans most likely descend from the ancient israelites.
so maybe black people are the real israelites. if semitic people could go to europe and become white, why couldn't they go to africa and become black?
modern day samaritans most likely descend from the ancient israelites.
he
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08-03-2024, 08:33 PM
#2
"Israelite" was never historically the name of any specific sect.
Israel means "wrestles with God" in reference to Jacob apparently having a literal wrestling match with God on his way to Chebron or Egypt or wherever the hell he was going, I cant remember. After that point the bible refers to him as Israel. Eventually, being known as the "Children of Jacob" jews came to use the term Israel for their collective as well in reference to Jacob.
But "Israelites" was never a specific order of jews like the karaaites or samaritans. Even the term jew originally derives from one specific tribe (Judah) which later came to be a blanket term for all the tribes.
"Israelite" just means the line of Jacob, which long predates the splitting of jews into various sects.
Israel means "wrestles with God" in reference to Jacob apparently having a literal wrestling match with God on his way to Chebron or Egypt or wherever the hell he was going, I cant remember. After that point the bible refers to him as Israel. Eventually, being known as the "Children of Jacob" jews came to use the term Israel for their collective as well in reference to Jacob.
But "Israelites" was never a specific order of jews like the karaaites or samaritans. Even the term jew originally derives from one specific tribe (Judah) which later came to be a blanket term for all the tribes.
"Israelite" just means the line of Jacob, which long predates the splitting of jews into various sects.
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08-03-2024, 08:49 PM
#3
Of course it's possible some lines of early jews migrated down to kush/nubia/ethiopia and became black due to the same environmental evolutionary pressures as other peoples. But there wouldnt be any historical reason to call any one group in particular "Israelites." Anyone jewish is by biblical definition descended from Israel.
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08-03-2024, 08:51 PM
#4
Originally Posted By TASTEROFPUPPETS⏩
there was a northern kingdom of israel that was conquered by the assyrians in the 700s bce. it existed alongside the southern kingdom of judah for around 500 years that we're aware of
"Israelite" was never historically the name of any specific sect.
Israel means "wrestles with God" in reference to Jacob apparently having a literal wrestling match with God on his way to Chebron or Egypt or wherever the hell he was going, I cant remember. After that point the bible refers to him as Israel. Eventually, being known as the "Children of Jacob" jews came to use the term Israel for their collective as well in reference to Jacob.
But "Israelites" was never a specific order of jews like the karaaites or samaritans. Even the term jew originally derives from one specific tribe (Judah) which later came to be a blanket term for all the tribes.
"Israelite" just means the line of Jacob, which long predates the splitting of jews into various sects.
Israel means "wrestles with God" in reference to Jacob apparently having a literal wrestling match with God on his way to Chebron or Egypt or wherever the hell he was going, I cant remember. After that point the bible refers to him as Israel. Eventually, being known as the "Children of Jacob" jews came to use the term Israel for their collective as well in reference to Jacob.
But "Israelites" was never a specific order of jews like the karaaites or samaritans. Even the term jew originally derives from one specific tribe (Judah) which later came to be a blanket term for all the tribes.
"Israelite" just means the line of Jacob, which long predates the splitting of jews into various sects.
you fuking idiot
he
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08-03-2024, 08:53 PM
#5
Originally Posted By yieldtonothing⏩
That has literally less than nothing to do with anything I explained.
there was a northern kingdom of israel that was conquered by the assyrians in the 700s bce. it existed alongside the southern kingdom of judah for around 500 years that we're aware of
you fuking idiot
you fuking idiot
But I see youre on that Billy Madison time, so may God have mercy on your soul.
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08-03-2024, 08:55 PM
#6
Originally Posted By TASTEROFPUPPETS⏩
you're a fuking idiot.
That has literally less than nothing to do with anything I explained.
But I see youre on that Billy Madison time, so may God have mercy on your soul.
But I see youre on that Billy Madison time, so may God have mercy on your soul.
i just laid out to you how the israelites were a people with their own kings(that lived north of the kingdom of judah who had their own kings too) and this is all you can come back with.
he
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08-03-2024, 09:12 PM
#7
Ok, I see what youre saying.
"The real Israelites" as in the northern kingdom called Israel, not in the sense of being the "authentic" Israelites to the exclusion of other groups (as the collective is also called Israel).
You were using Israelites in the specific geography sense, I was interpreting it in the biblical lineage sense.
FYI for the future, to avoid confusion of this nature academics typically just refer to those from the northern kingdom of israel as "Northies."
"The real Israelites" as in the northern kingdom called Israel, not in the sense of being the "authentic" Israelites to the exclusion of other groups (as the collective is also called Israel).
You were using Israelites in the specific geography sense, I was interpreting it in the biblical lineage sense.
FYI for the future, to avoid confusion of this nature academics typically just refer to those from the northern kingdom of israel as "Northies."
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08-03-2024, 09:24 PM
#8
Originally Posted By TASTEROFPUPPETS⏩
or maybe don't be so beholden to the bible that was written in jerusalem by people living in the kingdom of judah who clearly had their own agenda.
Ok, I see what youre saying.
"The real Israelites" as in the northern kingdom called Israel, not in the sense of being the "authentic" Israelites to the exclusion of other groups (as the collective is also called Israel).
You were using Israelites in the specific geography sense, I was interpreting it in the biblical lineage sense.
FYI for the future, to avoid confusion of this nature academics typically just refer to those from the northern kingdom of israel as "Northies."
"The real Israelites" as in the northern kingdom called Israel, not in the sense of being the "authentic" Israelites to the exclusion of other groups (as the collective is also called Israel).
You were using Israelites in the specific geography sense, I was interpreting it in the biblical lineage sense.
FYI for the future, to avoid confusion of this nature academics typically just refer to those from the northern kingdom of israel as "Northies."
what does "authentic israelites" even mean to you? hebrews?
all we know for a fact is that thee was a kingdom of israel(also known as samaria) in the north and a kingdom of judah in the south. until there is significant historical evidence of a united monarchy(the pentateuch will not suffice), we must consider the kingdoms and peoples to be separate.
he
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08-03-2024, 09:26 PM
#9
If you read the Bible, Israel and Judah often fought against each other.
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08-03-2024, 09:30 PM
#10
Originally Posted By OptimusTrajan⏩
i think the people that wrote the bible wrote it in a way to give "their" people claim to more land. so judah makes israel look bad, but also make it look like they were once united.
If you read the Bible, Israel and Judah often fought against each other.
two kings from judah ruled a united monarchy but there's no historical evidence for either of them?
he
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08-03-2024, 09:39 PM
#11
Originally Posted By yieldtonothing⏩
or maybe don't be so beholden to the bible that was written in jerusalem by people living in the kingdom of judah who clearly had their own agenda.
what does "authentic israelites" even mean to you? hebrews?
all we know for a fact is that thee was a kingdom of israel(also known as samaria) in the north and a kingdom of judah in the south. until there is significant historical evidence of a united monarchy(the pentateuch will not suffice), we must consider the kingdoms and peoples to be separate.
what does "authentic israelites" even mean to you? hebrews?
all we know for a fact is that thee was a kingdom of israel(also known as samaria) in the north and a kingdom of judah in the south. until there is significant historical evidence of a united monarchy(the pentateuch will not suffice), we must consider the kingdoms and peoples to be separate.
But what Im saying is, the literal translation of the word Israel is a reference to Jacob. The word Israel means people descended from Jacob. And Jacob long predates the kingdoms of Judea and Israel. Everyone in both kingdoms would have been descended from Jacob, and therefore actual Israelites, even if only the north adopted the name for its political entity.
It's like the first Brits to settle in America called their new colonies Roanoke, and Jamestown and Virginia… but the inhabitants were still Brits. It would still be accurate to call them ethnically British. Changing/creating a new name for a place does not change the genetic reality.
Both Kingdoms were composed of Hebrews, therefore both were the children of Jacob, therefore all ethnic Israelites.
But I see what youre referring to in terms of the lost tribes of the political entity CALLED Israel. Similar again to the lost colony at Roanoke in America, where a bunch of British people disappeared.
And yes speculation about the modern identities of the lost tribes has existed for hundreds of years.
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08-03-2024, 09:41 PM
#12
Also Im not suggesting the bible is or isnt accurate.
Im just talking about what the terms themselves technically refer to.
Im just talking about what the terms themselves technically refer to.
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08-03-2024, 09:43 PM
#13
Originally Posted By TASTEROFPUPPETS⏩
yes i know jacob was named israel, but he doesn't exist in history. it's a story. king david's united kingdom was also a story. as was the exodus, the flood etc etc
But what Im saying is, the literal translation of the word Israel is a reference to Jacob. The word Israel means people descended from Jacob. And Jacob long predates the kingdoms of Judea and Israel. Everyone in both kingdoms would have been descended from Jacob, and therefore actual Israelites, even if only the north adopted the name for its political entity.
It's like the first Brits to settle in America called their new colonies Roanoke, and Jamestown and Virginia… but the inhabitants were still Brits. It would still be accurate to call them ethnically British. The name of a place does not change the genetic reality.
Both Kingdoms were composed of Hebrews, therefore both were the children of Jacob, therefore all ethnic Israelites.
But I see what you mean in terms of the lost tribes of the place CALLED Israel. Similar again to the lost colony at Roanoke in America, where a bunch of British people disappeared.
It's like the first Brits to settle in America called their new colonies Roanoke, and Jamestown and Virginia… but the inhabitants were still Brits. It would still be accurate to call them ethnically British. The name of a place does not change the genetic reality.
Both Kingdoms were composed of Hebrews, therefore both were the children of Jacob, therefore all ethnic Israelites.
But I see what you mean in terms of the lost tribes of the place CALLED Israel. Similar again to the lost colony at Roanoke in America, where a bunch of British people disappeared.
the ancient kingdom of israel was not a story. neither was the kingdom of judah.
he
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08-03-2024, 09:45 PM
#14
Originally Posted By yieldtonothing⏩
Kingdom of David was proven by currency, Exodus was proven archeologically, and there is a ton of historical evidence worldwide for Noah and the Flood.
yes i know jacob was named israel, but he doesn't exist in history. it's a story. king david's united kingdom was also a story. as was the exodus, the flood etc etc
the ancient kingdom of israel was not a story. neither was the kingdom of judah.
the ancient kingdom of israel was not a story. neither was the kingdom of judah.
You have been reading too much redditt
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08-03-2024, 10:02 PM
#15
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08-03-2024, 10:07 PM
#16
Originally Posted By Paul Kreul⏩
I did hear something about the David thing.
Kingdom of David was proven by currency, Exodus was proven archeologically, and there is a ton of historical evidence worldwide for Noah and the Flood.
You have been reading too much redditt
You have been reading too much redditt
Ive not heard of any of the archaeology around Exodus being conclusive, but Im not an expert on the subject.
The flood is very likely based on memorialized accounts of genuine weather anomalies. Altho the part about God telling a guy to get two of every animal together, thats… probably gonna be a hard one to ever prove with data.
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08-03-2024, 10:36 PM
#17
Originally Posted By yieldtonothing⏩
This.
all we know for a fact is that thee was a kingdom of israel(also known as samaria) in the north and a kingdom of judah in the south. until there is significant historical evidence of a united monarchy(the pentateuch will not suffice), we must consider the kingdoms and peoples to be separate.
It's not crazy to think they could have been a unified kingdom at one point, but there's nothing to support it. I see David as a King Arthur type figure… there's no evidence that he actually existed, but his story is believable enough that there might be a kernel of truth behind some David-like leader.
But given that the Israelites/Jews/whatever the fukk you want to call them were a splinter band off of the Philistine coastal peoples as it was, it's just as economical to suggest that there had always been two splinter groups up in the hills, or they had been separate for a very long time before the OT.
The Jewish elders undoubtedly wanted to push the "one tribe" national identity chit after the return to Jerusalem, and so the official narrative became that "we have always been one kingdom, except for that one weird time after Solomon where there were two groups of us killing each other." But that "two tribes killing each other" thing ran a lot longer than that… maybe centuries.
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08-03-2024, 10:43 PM
#18
Fun fact: Moses' 2nd wife was a Black woman, she was from the land of Cush
So yes, maybe a portion of the Jews did go to Ethiopia are modern Ethiopians can claim to be Jewish.
So yes, maybe a portion of the Jews did go to Ethiopia are modern Ethiopians can claim to be Jewish.
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08-04-2024, 12:41 AM
#19
Originally Posted By TASTEROFPUPPETS⏩
Jacob is simply a reference to Yakub who is the creator of the tribe of albinoids whose entire purpose is to deceive the true living gods
But what Im saying is, the literal translation of the word Israel is a reference to Jacob. The word Israel means people descended from Jacob. And Jacob long predates the kingdoms of Judea and Israel. Everyone in both kingdoms would have been descended from Jacob, and therefore actual Israelites, even if only the north adopted the name for its political entity.
It's like the first Brits to settle in America called their new colonies Roanoke, and Jamestown and Virginia… but the inhabitants were still Brits. It would still be accurate to call them ethnically British. Changing/creating a new name for a place does not change the genetic reality.
Both Kingdoms were composed of Hebrews, therefore both were the children of Jacob, therefore all ethnic Israelites.
But I see what youre referring to in terms of the lost tribes of the political entity CALLED Israel. Similar again to the lost colony at Roanoke in America, where a bunch of British people disappeared.
And yes speculation about the modern identities of the lost tribes has existed for hundreds of years.
It's like the first Brits to settle in America called their new colonies Roanoke, and Jamestown and Virginia… but the inhabitants were still Brits. It would still be accurate to call them ethnically British. Changing/creating a new name for a place does not change the genetic reality.
Both Kingdoms were composed of Hebrews, therefore both were the children of Jacob, therefore all ethnic Israelites.
But I see what youre referring to in terms of the lost tribes of the political entity CALLED Israel. Similar again to the lost colony at Roanoke in America, where a bunch of British people disappeared.
And yes speculation about the modern identities of the lost tribes has existed for hundreds of years.
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08-04-2024, 01:22 AM
#20
I accidentally got into hinduism at one point and learned that Jesus Christ is real - believe me when I tell you that reality is stranger than fiction.
From now on, I use to bible as a rule book, until proved wrong with SUFFICIENT evidence.
The northern kingdom began worshipping idols and the south-kingdom was better in that regard. So God let the Assyrians pwn the Israelites. Later on they became Samaria IIRC.
Also, most of the world considers white americans (WASP, Gaelic, German, Dutch, scandinavian) to be the same as British people. You all even speak the same language, just different accents.
From now on, I use to bible as a rule book, until proved wrong with SUFFICIENT evidence.
The northern kingdom began worshipping idols and the south-kingdom was better in that regard. So God let the Assyrians pwn the Israelites. Later on they became Samaria IIRC.
Originally Posted By TASTEROFPUPPETS⏩
This.
But what Im saying is, the literal translation of the word Israel is a reference to Jacob. The word Israel means people descended from Jacob. And Jacob long predates the kingdoms of Judea and Israel. Everyone in both kingdoms would have been descended from Jacob, and therefore actual Israelites, even if only the north adopted the name for its political entity.
It's like the first Brits to settle in America called their new colonies Roanoke, and Jamestown and Virginia… but the inhabitants were still Brits. It would still be accurate to call them ethnically British. Changing/creating a new name for a place does not change the genetic reality.
Both Kingdoms were composed of Hebrews, therefore both were the children of Jacob, therefore all ethnic Israelites.
But I see what youre referring to in terms of the lost tribes of the political entity CALLED Israel. Similar again to the lost colony at Roanoke in America, where a bunch of British people disappeared.
And yes speculation about the modern identities of the lost tribes has existed for hundreds of years.
It's like the first Brits to settle in America called their new colonies Roanoke, and Jamestown and Virginia… but the inhabitants were still Brits. It would still be accurate to call them ethnically British. Changing/creating a new name for a place does not change the genetic reality.
Both Kingdoms were composed of Hebrews, therefore both were the children of Jacob, therefore all ethnic Israelites.
But I see what youre referring to in terms of the lost tribes of the political entity CALLED Israel. Similar again to the lost colony at Roanoke in America, where a bunch of British people disappeared.
And yes speculation about the modern identities of the lost tribes has existed for hundreds of years.
Also, most of the world considers white americans (WASP, Gaelic, German, Dutch, scandinavian) to be the same as British people. You all even speak the same language, just different accents.
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08-04-2024, 01:39 AM
#21
Originally Posted By TASTEROFPUPPETS⏩
Fkn lol'd
That has literally less than nothing to do with anything I explained.
But I see youre on that Billy Madison time, so may God have mercy on your soul.
But I see youre on that Billy Madison time, so may God have mercy on your soul.
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08-04-2024, 06:55 AM
#22
Originally Posted By TASTEROFPUPPETS⏩
Every ancient ciivilization has some type of record of a world wide (or what they knew of the world at the time) great flood. It also makes sense given the aging process of man accordeing to the Bible. NOAA even had documentation on this.
I did hear something about the David thing.
Ive not heard of any of the archaeology around Exodus being conclusive, but Im not an expert on the subject.
The flood is very likely based on memorialized accounts of genuine weather anomalies. Altho the part about God telling a guy to get two of every animal together, thats… probably gonna be a hard one to ever prove with data.
Ive not heard of any of the archaeology around Exodus being conclusive, but Im not an expert on the subject.
The flood is very likely based on memorialized accounts of genuine weather anomalies. Altho the part about God telling a guy to get two of every animal together, thats… probably gonna be a hard one to ever prove with data.
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