Masculinity Isn't Being Attacked... Change My Mind.

06-09-2021, 09:22 AM

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#31

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LMAO @ the last guy in my UserCP I got, I didn't even read it after the first few words I just looked at the username.

Everyone is a tough guy on the internet.

06-09-2021, 09:22 AM

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#32

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Originally Posted By BetaAsPhuck⏩

I haven't seen them tell men not to be assertive, ambitious, sexually dominant, and have muscle. Have you honestly seen that?

My argument in the post is that traditionally masculine traits are still encouraged and admired in men by the mainstream culture.

Mmm, I see. I do think that masculinity is a construct used to denote behaviors that are deemed appropriate for the male sex. Where I'm going with this is that I tend to think "toxic masculinity" is not an actual thing, as masculinity as well as femininity are toxic because gender is a regressive notion.

Originally Posted By BetaAsPhuck⏩

LMAO @ the last guy in my UserCP I got, I didn't even read it after the first few words I just looked at the username.

Everyone is a tough guy on the internet.

Good grief.

06-09-2021, 09:23 AM

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#33

jtaylor2010

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Originally Posted By BetaAsPhuck⏩

I never mentioned about women banging men, brah. I mentioned what the culture values...

The culture praises ambitiousness, people like Tim Ferris, Tony Robbins, etc are paraded around by the MSM.

The culture praises muscle, people like Jason Jason Momoa, Chris Hemsworth, Chris Evans' and Michael B Jordan's bodies are openly drooled at by women on TV.

The culture praises men being dominant, look at the mainstream success of 50 Shades of Gray and 365 days. They were openly spoken about on the MSM, and they both were depictions of men being sexually dominant.

The culture praises men for being assertive, men who are confident and decisive are still openly spoken about as being attractive.

Would you like to make a case that the culture actively advocates men to be sexually submissive, socially submissive, and a bum?

1.) having the media occasionally mention ambitious people doesn’t mean they are championing masculinity. Also, being ambitious /= masculine. The people orchestrating campaigns preaching about the dangers of toxic masculinity are ambitious, but that doesn’t mean they’re masculine.

2.) having muscles doesn’t make you masculine. If the Rock stands on stage yoked as fukk and talks about how men need to check their privilege he isn’t being masculine. And as has been noted, just because women still enjoy masculine sex symbols that doesn’t mean it spills over to the real world…which ties in to your 3rd point.

3.) just because millions of women Jill off over 50 Shades, that doesn’t mean it is indicative of where society is heading. If that were the case we wouldn’t have workplace training telling people not to make prolonged eye contact or hug anyone. Or that men need to be careful not to “mansplain”. Or that sitting a certain way on the subway is overly aggressive and a sign of toxic masculinity. Or that we need apps in order to consent. Or countless articles talking about how how being a cuck can actually be good for you. Or razor commercials scolding boys for being boys and any man who won’t punish his kid for acting like a boy. Or….I could honestly be here all day with examples.

For every one example you can give(most of which are of the fictional variety), I can point out countless real world examples where being manly is shunned. I can also point out countless examples of the narrative guiding men towards being more submissive and subservient in pretty much all areas of life. I can also point out countless fictional examples where the man is weak, and/or an idiot. I can also point out how testosterone levels are dropping and despite all of the health benefits the system remains extremely hesitant about providing men with testosterone. They also keep lowering the “normal” range….so now it is considered completely normal that a man has drastically less testosterone than his grandfather did at the same age. That’s like saying it’s normal to be 300 pounds because lots of other people are as well.

But before we move on….what exactly are you looking for you convince you that there is a war on masculinity? All you’ve done is point out a few examples which you claim indicates there isn’t a concerted effort to shift the ideal man towards being a more submissive creature.

06-09-2021, 09:25 AM

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#34

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Perhaps it’s femininity that is being attacked under the guise of empowerment.

06-09-2021, 09:28 AM

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#35

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Originally Posted By BetaAsPhuck⏩

I don't see that as an attack on masculinity. What these women seem to want - at best - is a man that is emotionally intelligent and a partner rather than a leader. Regardless of it you agree with that or not, they also want the man to have traditionally masculine traits like; assertiveness, ambitiousness, sexually dominant, and a strong physique.

What Toxic masculinity seems to be mainly is the misc attitude towards women (they aren't worthy of the dignity as men, and they have no value other than to bang and make babies), and the idea that to be emotionally intelligent is feminine.

I agree that there are some feminists who literally seem to want men to become like women in terms of temperament, but IMO they are in the minority and that is not the mainstream. Like I said almost all the celebs men praised are still masculine dudes.

The guys have been voted the sexiest men alive, and they are masculine dudes...

Living up to your username. Truly beta as fuk. You try to dismiss all the obvious anti-masculine sentiments and propaganda as "Just on the internet," but then use a "Sexiest Man Alive" poll from a magazine to argue there isn't an attack on masculinity? Which is it, do magazines matter, or do they not? Do articles on physical paper count, but not articles on the internet? NO consistency from the "There is no culture war" camp because they know they're wrong and embrace Marxism willingly, as it hasn't penalized them yet.

"Masculinity isn't under attack! Look, they voted masculine men most sexiest alive! in a magazine! See?!"

Oh ya, that definitely makes up for the normalization of cutting your d!ck off and taking hormones. Transgenderism being mainstream is arguably an attack on masculinity AND femininity.
And while that's a whole other topic, I agree that FEMININITY is under attack, too. Actual, true femininity, not outspoken, crass, sociopathic feminist extremism, but actual femininity.

But just drown all that in hormones or prescriptions. Go outside, bruhs, it's totally not seeping into every aspect of culture. Your company isn't telling you to be less white and masculine, that's just a phase! Go back to bed!

06-09-2021, 09:28 AM

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#36

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Originally Posted By jtaylor2010⏩

1.) having the media occasionally mention ambitious people doesn’t mean they are championing masculinity.

[snip]

All you’ve done is point out a few examples which you claim indicates there isn’t a concerted effort to shift the ideal man towards being a more submissive creature.

You posts seems to be based on misunderstanding the argument, also you treated them in isolation when they are supposed to be taken together.

Ambitiousness, assertiveness, sexual dominance and physicality are traditionally masculine traits, and a man who display all of those traits is still praised by the culture.

06-09-2021, 09:29 AM

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#37

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Originally Posted By BetaAsPhuck⏩

LMAO @ the last guy in my UserCP I got, I didn't even read it after the first few words I just looked at the username.

Everyone is a tough guy on the internet.

post your neg

06-09-2021, 09:32 AM

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#38

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Originally Posted By redraider86⏩

Mmm, I see. I do think that masculinity is a construct used to denote behaviors that are deemed appropriate for the male sex. Where I'm going with this is that I tend to think "toxic masculinity" is not an actual thing, as masculinity as well as femininity are toxic because gender is a regressive notion.

I believe I understand your position.

We would have to get way too philosophical. Though... Out of curiosity, are you a fan of Max Stirner? He strongly disliked abstractions, and liked to define and prescribe things only by the observable/quantifiable. I think he would agree with you and call gender a 'spook'.

06-09-2021, 09:37 AM

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#39

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Originally Posted By CrimsonSteel⏩

Living up to your username. Truly beta as fuk. You try to dismiss all the obvious anti-masculine sentiments and propaganda as "Just on the internet,"

I didn't write that.

but then use a "Sexiest Man Alive" poll from a magazine to argue there isn't an attack on masculinity?

That was just supporting evidence, an example of what can be found in mainstream culture.

Oh ya, that definitely makes up for the normalization of cutting your d!ck off and taking hormones. Transgenderism being mainstream is arguably an attack on masculinity AND femininity.

Nah, 'non-binary' is much more of an 'attack'. Many transmen and transwomen honestly embrace traditional and conventional masculine or feminine traits (from mannierism, to communication habits, etc).

Your company isn't telling you to be less white and masculine, that's just a phase! Go back to bed!

This isn't about race.

06-09-2021, 09:40 AM

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#40

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Biological attraction in promiscuous individuals is probably the most useless justification you could have used. Evolution transcends whatever programming has been done in the past 60 years.

06-09-2021, 09:42 AM

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#41

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Originally Posted By BetaAsPhuck⏩

I didn't write that.

That was just supporting evidence, an example of what can be found in mainstream culture.

Nah, 'non-binary' is much more of an 'attack'. Many transmen and transwomen honestly embrace traditional and conventional masculine or feminine traits (from mannierism, to communication habits, etc).

This isn't about race.

It's part of the same culture war, don't play stupid.

06-09-2021, 09:43 AM

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#42

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Originally Posted By kingmanaverage⏩

post your neg

For the Lulz. (note, this guy has not posted once ITT. But we have debated before about him defending convicted rapists, one of them actually confessed to drugging women with the intention of having sex with them. He still defends him, not matter how many times I post him the evidence that he confessed to drugging women to bang them.)

Take some greens...You are one of the stupidest people I have come across, my God lololol, and you are a eunuch/cuckold type failure of life--you gave up on life from mental weakness...C'mon BaP find the jar your balls are in and reattach them!!!!

06-09-2021, 09:43 AM

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#43

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Originally Posted By BulkingIsHard⏩

Biological attraction in promiscuous individuals is probably the most useless justification you could have used..

That wasn't my argument in the OP.

My argument was what is praised and presented in the mainstream media, not based on observation of kind of men that girls have sex with.

Regarding the sexiest man alive magazine poll...

Does anyone believe that Tess Halliday is being praised by anyone but Magazine editors and other fat people as beautiful? No... They don't put things out unless they are approve by the people in charge of the magazine, it's not organic. Yet, that same industry promotes masculine men as the sexiest men alive. Again, I'm saying they promote this - they didn't hide the poll, or denounce it as promoting 'toxic masculinity' they praised and promoted the masculine dudes.

06-09-2021, 09:46 AM

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#44

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Originally Posted By BetaAsPhuck⏩

I didn't write that.

The title of the thread is "Masculinity isn't being attacked."

That was just supporting evidence, an example of what can be found in mainstream culture.

And? I can post dozens of examples of anti-masculinity articles. Guarantee you those "Sexiest" whatever articles don't mention anything beyond looks. They aren't gonna be saying "Voted for because they were the most masculine."
So it's not even evidence, it's actually null and void.

Nah, 'non-binary' is much more of an 'attack'. Many transmen and transwomen honestly embrace traditional and conventional masculine or feminine traits (from mannierism, to communication habits, etc).

This makes no sense. Nonbinary is bad, but actually taking hormones and getting sex change operations isn't? You're so deep into lefty sh!t you don't even try to maintain any consistency or logic.

This isn't about race.

Stop playing coy, *******. Anti-masculinity sentiment ties right in with all this other Culture War sh!t. The anti-masculine sh!t, the anti-white sh!t, the anti-American sh!t, the anti-Christian-sh!t, the pro-abortion, pro-tranny, shove LGBTQIAP down kids throats...let's drop the pretenses and stop pretending it isn't all one cluster-fuk social movement.
Again, stop playing coy. It's basically your only strategy, to play dumb.

06-09-2021, 09:47 AM

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#45

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Originally Posted By BetaAsPhuck⏩

You posts seems to be based on misunderstanding the argument, also you treated them in isolation when they are supposed to be taken together.

Ambitiousness, assertiveness, sexual dominance and physicality are traditionally masculine traits, and a man who display all of those traits is still praised by the culture.

Well, you still didn’t really specify what exactly it is you’re looking for to refute your stance. So let’s just start here.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/10/s...y-harmful.html

https://www.apa.org/about/policy/boy...guidelines.pdf

06-09-2021, 09:48 AM

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#46

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"Toxic masculinity" is an acceptable thing to say.

"Toxic femininity" is not an acceptable thing to say.

I rest my case.

Also, women will let Chads get away with anything. The second a 6/10 or below tries it, he's a creep or "toxic".

06-09-2021, 09:49 AM

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#47

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Originally Posted By BetaAsPhuck⏩

That wasn't my argument in the OP.

My argument was what is praised and presented in the mainstream media, not based on observation of kind of men that girls have sex with.

Regarding the sexiest man alive magazine poll...

Does anyone believe that Tess Halliday is being praised by anyone but Magazine editors and other fat people as beautiful? No... They don't put things out unless they are approve by the people in charge of the magazine, it's not organic. Yet, that same industry promotes masculine men as the sexiest men alive. Again, I'm saying they promote this - they didn't hide the poll, or denounce it as promoting 'toxic masculinity' they praised and promoted the masculine dudes.

Having muscle- Women openly drool over men with muscle. Zyzz physique OFC, not Ronnie Coleman. - NOT a mainstream media presentation

Assertiveness- Women constantly say that they like a man who is decisive, and is confident when speaking to women. Still in 2021. - NOT a mainstream media presentation

Ambitiousness- Highly attractive women still list that as a key trait they want in a man. - NOT a mainstream media presentation

Being dominant in bed- There was an entire movie made about it called Fifty Shades Of Grey, and a popular Netflix movie called 365 Days (film is garbage IMO, I turned it off after a the BJ scene. Women seem to love it though.) - A book catering to specific females who fill a niche of sexual deviants did well? Wow! How surprising!

06-09-2021, 09:50 AM

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#48

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Originally Posted By CrimsonSteel⏩

This makes no sense. Nonbinary is bad, but actually taking hormones and getting sex change operations isn't? Your so deep into lefty sh!t you don't even try to have any consistency or logic.

One disregards masculinity (and femininity), and the other doesn't. There are many transmen who embrace masculine traits. You seem to be arguing that they don't. Or you believe that simply having XY chromosomes makes you masculine, regardless of your temperament, communication habits, or mannerisms?

Stop playing coy, *******. Anti-masculinity sentiment ties right in with all this other Culture War sh!t. The anti-masculine sh!t, the anti-white sh!t, the anti-American sh!t, the anti-Christian-sh!t, the pro-abortion, pro-tranny, shove LGBTQIAP down kids throats...let's drop the pretenses and stop pretending it isn't all one cluster-fuk social movement.
Again, stop playing coy. It's basically your only strategy, to play dumb.

The 4chan white nationalist narrative (I'm very familiar with it), and I'm not looking for you to promote that in this thread.

There are probably 10 other threads on this forum that you can promote that narrative in where you'll be praised for it.

06-09-2021, 09:50 AM

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#49

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Originally Posted By kingmanaverage⏩

post your neg

It was me, and I repped him. It is a fairly standard rep message I use for the misc cuck brigade.

Originally Posted By BetaAsPhuck⏩

For the Lulz. (note, this guy has not posted once ITT. But we have debated before about him defending convicted rapists, one of them actually confessed to drugging women with the intention of having sex with them. He still defends him, not matter how many times I post him the evidence that he confessed to drugging women to bang them.)

Take some greens...You are one of the stupidest people I have come across, my God lololol, and you are a eunuch/cuckold type failure of life--you gave up on life from mental weakness...C'mon BaP find the jar your balls are in and reattach them!!!!

BaP you eunuch/cuckold types will always "think" and see the liberal feminist line on things. It becomes an absurdity to talk to you.

06-09-2021, 09:51 AM

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#50

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Originally Posted By BetaAsPhuck⏩

I believe I understand your position.

We would have to get way too philosophical. Though... Out of curiosity, are you a fan of Max Stirner? He strongly disliked abstractions, and liked to define and prescribe things only by the observable/quantifiable. I think he would agree with you and call gender a 'spook'.

I am! I'm not as familiar with his writings as I'd like to be. From what I can recall, he had the idea that fixed essences like identity categories is basically enslaving you to those ideas and I'd agree. All of these ridiculous categories (masculinity and femininity included) have basically become their own fixed identities with their own performances, so congrats to all of the very special lefty anarchists who are willingly enslaving themselves to a new category hierarchy.

06-09-2021, 09:55 AM

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#51

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Originally Posted By BetaAsPhuck⏩

I don't see that as an attack on masculinity. What these women seem to want - at best - is a man that is emotionally intelligent and a partner rather than a leader. Regardless of it you agree with that or not, they also want the man to have traditionally masculine traits like; assertiveness, ambitiousness, sexually dominant, and a strong physique.

What Toxic masculinity seems to be mainly is the misc attitude towards women (they aren't worthy of the dignity as men, and they have no value other than to bang and make babies), and the idea that to be emotionally intelligent is feminine.

I agree that there are some feminists who literally seem to want men to become like women in terms of temperament, but IMO they are in the minority and that is not the mainstream.Like I said almost all the celebs men praised are still masculine dudes.

The guys have been voted the sexiest men alive, and they are masculine dudes...

I never said masculinity is being "demonized" either. Of course I agree women prefer the archetypal traits of masculinity from a pure attraction standpoint, but I'm only saying they're confused as to whether or not that should be the deciding factor for committing to a man who exemplifies that dynamic due to their bioloigical instincts telling them A and their political ideologies telling them B.

To your last point, of course leading men in hollywood films need to fit the stereotype of a masculine man based on your traits listed in the OP. This isnt really proof of what women think men should exemplify, but rather testament to what people think fictional characters in films should represent. And the "toxic males" you're criticizing for being unreasonable in their views of women are going to praise those men for exemplifying the masculine archetype by default. That doesnt really do much to disprove the fact that most women hold liberal views, and have their views of traditional gender roles warped by the associated feminism that is a byproduct of leftist politics

06-09-2021, 09:56 AM

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#52

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Originally Posted By BulkingIsHard⏩

Having muscle- Women openly drool over men with muscle. Zyzz physique OFC, not Ronnie Coleman. - NOT a mainstream media presentation

Sexiest men alive are all muscled, in MSM magazines and on TV.

Assertiveness- Women constantly say that they like a man who is decisive, and is confident when speaking to women. Still in 2021. - NOT a mainstream media presentation

Women saying they like a man who is decisive is in the mainstream media.

Here you go...

Ambitiousness- Highly attractive women still list that as a key trait they want in a man. - NOT a mainstream media presentation

Fair enough, later on ITT I spoke about Tim Ferris, Tony Robbins (you can also ass Elon Musk) who are paraded around by the MSM, and the constantly talk about ambitousness.

Being dominant in bed- There was an entire movie made about it called Fifty Shades Of Grey, and a popular Netflix movie called 365 Days (film is garbage IMO, I turned it off after a the BJ scene. Women seem to love it though.) - A book catering to specific females who fill a niche of sexual deviants did well? Wow! How surprising!

One of the biggest selling books of all time, and one of the biggest R rated films. It was mainstream, I don't know why you would deny that. It made an incredible amount of money, the majority of women were/are familiar with it.

06-09-2021, 10:00 AM

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#53

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Originally Posted By BetaAsPhuck⏩

You posts seems to be based on misunderstanding the argument, also you treated them in isolation when they are supposed to be taken together.

Ambitiousness, assertiveness, sexual dominance and physicality are traditionally masculine traits, and a man who display all of those traits is still praised by the culture.

You cannot just keep telling every person they are misunderstanding your point, then countering off of that with the same point. I am not here to disagree or agree with you, but I think you should stabilize your position as to how your "praised qualities" are interpreted and why those traits are keeping masculinity strong. A lot of people are doing their best to explain why those traits are being misconstrued and put under attack.

06-09-2021, 10:03 AM

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#54

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Originally Posted By freshnevafrozen⏩

Some bad parts of masculinity are being attacked. But some people attacking it are mistakenly attacking masculinity as a whole.

However, misc larpers who try to pretend they're alpha are always crying about something. Turn off your computers and go outside guys. The world is not a divisive social war. 90% of people are normal and don't give a phuck.

You couldn't be more wrong

>There's no "bad" parts to masculinity

>5 minutes outside in North America shows that it is a social war of freaks

>"90% are normal" is that why 1/3 women have ugly piercings & weird colored hair

You must live in the middle of nowhere, USA

06-09-2021, 10:04 AM

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#55

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Originally Posted By quadfecta⏩

And the "toxic males" you're criticizing for being unreasonable in their views of women are going to praise those men for exemplifying the masculine archetype by default. That doesnt really do much to disprove the fact that most women hold liberal views, and have their views of traditional gender roles warped by the associated feminism that is a byproduct of leftist politics

I confess, I am doing my best ITT to argue against the normal narrative from the manosphere, but I do agree with a lot of the points people have made (honestly though, I think too many ITT get way too emotional).

However, I do think the "everyone hates us" narrative that is promoted by some men online is damaging, so this is the other side of the coin, that traditionally masculine traits are still found and praised in the mainstream culture.

06-09-2021, 10:04 AM

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#56

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Originally Posted By BetaAsPhuck⏩

I never mentioned about women banging men, brah. I mentioned what the culture values...

The culture praises ambitiousness, people like Tim Ferris, Tony Robbins, etc are paraded around by the MSM.

The culture praises muscle, people like Jason Jason Momoa, Chris Hemsworth, Chris Evans' and Michael B Jordan's bodies are openly drooled at by women on TV.

The culture praises men being dominant, look at the mainstream success of 50 Shades of Gray and 365 days. They were openly spoken about on the MSM, and they both were depictions of men being sexually dominant.

The culture praises men for being assertive, men who are confident and decisive are still openly spoken about as being attractive.

Would you like to make a case that the culture actively advocates men to be sexually submissive, socially submissive, and a bum?

You did conflate what women find attractive with what the culture advocates. This post is just the OP rewritten.

I would say that 'the culture' isn't monolithic and there is an attempted cultural revolution ongoing which tries to attack masculinity. Parts of culture which aren't as embroiled in the revolution may not attack or might even support masculinity. There are examples on both sides and certainly plenty which are posted on the misc showing masculinity being attacked.

Originally Posted By BetaAsPhuck⏩

I believe I understand your position.

We would have to get way too philosophical. Though... Out of curiosity, are you a fan of Max Stirner? He strongly disliked abstractions, and liked to define and prescribe things only by the observable/quantifiable. I think he would agree with you and call gender a 'spook'.

I also don't believe gender is a legitimate concept, there's only sex, but 'gender roles' are really 'sex roles' based on biology so are not toxic.

Originally Posted By redraider86⏩

I am! I'm not as familiar with his writings as I'd like to be. From what I can recall, he had the idea that fixed essences like identity categories is basically enslaving you to those ideas and I'd agree. All of these ridiculous categories (masculinity and femininity included) have basically become their own fixed identities with their own performances, so congrats to all of the very special lefty anarchists who are willingly enslaving themselves to a new category hierarchy.

Modern masculinity and femininity have become totally fake and performative. Particularly masculinity, which is usually playfighting, drinking beer, watching sportsball and begging for coochie.

06-09-2021, 10:06 AM

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#57

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Originally Posted By MTCC⏩

You cannot just keep telling every person they are misunderstanding your point, then countering off of that with the same point.

I understand where you are coming from, and maybe it's the wrong approach, however experience on the misc has taught me that people don't read posts, and it's necessary to repeat key points for people to actually address them.

I think you should stabilize your position as to how your "praised qualities" are interpreted and why those traits are keeping masculinity strong.

I don't understand what you are saying, honestly.

06-09-2021, 10:08 AM

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#58

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Lies but more on this later

06-09-2021, 10:09 AM

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#59

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Originally Posted By BetaAsPhuck⏩

I confess, I am doing my best ITT to argue against the normal narrative from the manosphere, but I do agree with a lot of the points people have made (honestly though, I think too many ITT get way too emotional).

However, I do think the "everyone hates us" narrative that is promoted by some men online is damaging, so this is the other side of the coin, that traditionally masculine traits are still found and praised in the mainstream culture.

I don’t always agree with you, and even though we probably disagree more than agree, it seems when we do agree on topics it is 100% agreement and when we disagree we are on complete opposite ends of the spectrum. That being said, I think a lot of the backlash you’re getting from this thread comes from poor wording in the title. “Masculinity isn’t being attacked” is a patently false statement, and pointing out a few examples of it being appreciated doesn’t change that.

06-09-2021, 10:16 AM

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#60

MTCC
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MTCC
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Originally Posted By BetaAsPhuck⏩

I understand where you are coming from, and maybe it's the wrong approach, however experience on the misc has taught me that people don't read posts, and it's necessary to repeat key points for people to actually address them.

I don't understand what you are saying, honestly.

Alright, so you've listedAmbitiousness, assertiveness, sexual dominance and physicality are traditionally masculine traits, and a man who display all of those traits is still praised by the culture.Plenty of folks are countering with how these exact "qualities" are often misconstrued by society today, and often aligned with examples of toxic behavior leading to the depreciation of these traits.

I think it would be best for you to explain why these traits are as strong as ever and are not being devalued in todays society.

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Thread: Masculinity Isn't Being Attacked... Change My Mind.