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Definitive Answer: Rows > pull ups for lats
05-26-2022, 11:43 AM
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#31
I'm on that Front Lever time. Been working on it for years. Can hold a solid form straddle front lever for time (15s plus solid, start to lose form after) move to full front lever for a couple seconds before dropping. Can rotate up to straddle a few times and advanced tuck FL easily. Can do advanced tuck front lever pull ups, which is a row.
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05-26-2022, 11:45 AM
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#32
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Originally Posted By Jestbrah⏩
and I strongly disagree with you taking one study as proof and taking am absolute and definitive stance on it. when the author himself never even worded it as such, you're just misrepresenting his views when he used words "probably" and "slightly" and you turned it up like 100 degrees. He also never said anything about whether doing BOTH pullups and rows are better than choosing one or the other. He SAID if you had to choose one or the other. Reading comprehension and critical thinking is important instead of surface level statements.I strongly disagree with what you are saying because I have seen TOO many people lift absolutely wrong for lats. I think it is EXTREMELY important for lifters to read this kind of information and the reason most people arent building lats.
Your whole post seems like a lot of cope for doing not the best things. I am a strong advocate against the idea that "theres many ways to do something" sure there are but there is ALWAYS a better way and if you want to write out 6 paragraphs like this to explain why you dont like searching for whats best, thats probably why you havnt been more successful in your own fitness ventures.
Dead serious.
The people I see not succeed the most are the people with your attitude on lifting.
Your whole post seems like a lot of cope for doing not the best things. I am a strong advocate against the idea that "theres many ways to do something" sure there are but there is ALWAYS a better way and if you want to write out 6 paragraphs like this to explain why you dont like searching for whats best, thats probably why you havnt been more successful in your own fitness ventures.
Dead serious.
The people I see not succeed the most are the people with your attitude on lifting.
Message him directly on instagram with what you just said in this thread and tell me what he thinks/says. I'll rep you if you do it and you post the screenshot of the response.
What's best for somebody may be different for somebody else. If they can't establish a MMR or are not "feeling" a movement, then why continue with that movement? It's a complete waste of time that could be used doing other movements in which all of that would be established and would get better gains from it.
Sure there's always a better way, but often times that BETTER WAY is different for a lot of people so it is more important for that person instead of religiously following what "the science says" to find what is BETTER for themselves through trial and error. That's how old school bodybuilders did it. They didn't sift through research papers telling them that THIS is supposed to be better because "peak activation on the EMG was 5% higher", they actually did it in the gym and made their own determination.
It's funny how you call my whole post cope but it seems like you're the one coping by religiously defending a position that the author of it didn't necessarily make. and equally, so many lifters "follow the science" and the "technically scientific way of lifting and program" it doesn't amount to chit for them. WELL no chit it's almost like there's a lot more to it than that.
Also funny how you talk about ego when you're the only one in the thread whose head is up his own ass and couldn't possibly consider other viewpoints.
It's like you are not hearing anything except your own inflated sense of ego. Not even arguing against what he said either. Just arguing against definitive statements and what context is missing.
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05-26-2022, 11:46 AM
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#33
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OP's definitive answer is literally saying that "rows are probably slightly better than pull ups."
So definitive.
So definitive.
05-26-2022, 11:48 AM
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#34
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Originally Posted By Jestbrah⏩
Muscle damage occurs the most during the eccentric portion of the lift, not the concentricwhy would a vertical pull(keeping elbows out to the side aka pullup or wide grip pulldown with elbows going out) optimally contract lats that run horizontally?
....so for growth.
We are talking bout lats and hypertrophy amirite?
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05-26-2022, 11:50 AM
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#35
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different strokes for different folks, some people just cannot do pull ups comfortably (me) so rows are a great alternative
I also do straight arm lat pull downs which work great imo
I also do straight arm lat pull downs which work great imo
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05-26-2022, 11:52 AM
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#36
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Originally Posted By sooby⏩
You must not read much literature because the things you are arguing are so counter to what is actually happening in the bodybuilding world with advanced athletes.and I strongly disagree with you taking one study as proof and taking am absolute and definitive stance on it. when the author himself never even worded it as such, you're just misrepresenting his views when he used words "probably" and "slightly" and you turned it up like 100 degrees. He also never said anything about whether doing BOTH pullups and rows are better than choosing one or the other. He SAID if you had to choose one or the other. Reading comprehension and critical thinking is important instead of surface level statements.
Message him directly on instagram with what you just said in this thread and tell me what he thinks/says. I'll rep you if you do it and you post the screenshot of the response.
What's best for somebody may be different for somebody else. If they can't establish a MMR or are not "feeling" a movement, then why continue with that movement? It's a complete waste of time that could be used doing other movements in which all of that would be established and would get better gains from it.
Sure there's always a better way, but often times that BETTER WAY is different for a lot of people so it is more important for that person instead of religiously following what "the science says" to find what is BETTER for themselves through trial and error. That's how old school bodybuilders did it. They didn't sift through research papers telling them that THIS is supposed to be better because "peak activation on the EMG was 5% higher", they actually did it in the gym and made their own determination.
It's funny how you call my whole post cope but it seems like you're the one coping by religiously defending a position that the author of it didn't necessarily make. and equally, so many lifters "follow the science" and the "technically scientific way of lifting and program" it doesn't amount to chit for them. WELL no chit it's almost like there's a lot more to it than that.
Also funny how you talk about ego when you're the only one in the thread whose head is up his own ass and couldn't possibly consider other viewpoints.
It's like you are not hearing anything except your own inflated sense of ego. Not even arguing against what he said either. Just arguing against definitive statements and what context is missing.
Message him directly on instagram with what you just said in this thread and tell me what he thinks/says. I'll rep you if you do it and you post the screenshot of the response.
What's best for somebody may be different for somebody else. If they can't establish a MMR or are not "feeling" a movement, then why continue with that movement? It's a complete waste of time that could be used doing other movements in which all of that would be established and would get better gains from it.
Sure there's always a better way, but often times that BETTER WAY is different for a lot of people so it is more important for that person instead of religiously following what "the science says" to find what is BETTER for themselves through trial and error. That's how old school bodybuilders did it. They didn't sift through research papers telling them that THIS is supposed to be better because "peak activation on the EMG was 5% higher", they actually did it in the gym and made their own determination.
It's funny how you call my whole post cope but it seems like you're the one coping by religiously defending a position that the author of it didn't necessarily make. and equally, so many lifters "follow the science" and the "technically scientific way of lifting and program" it doesn't amount to chit for them. WELL no chit it's almost like there's a lot more to it than that.
Also funny how you talk about ego when you're the only one in the thread whose head is up his own ass and couldn't possibly consider other viewpoints.
It's like you are not hearing anything except your own inflated sense of ego. Not even arguing against what he said either. Just arguing against definitive statements and what context is missing.
So you are saying if Squats arent working then move to something else right?
Well this is actually probably the worst thing to do because instead of learning proper movement you are just going to keep moving improperly but on a new machine. So explain to me how this is conducive to advancing you lifting standing from being an intermediate to an advanced lifter?
The person who spends a year perfecting their squat is going to make more growth in the long run by miles than the person who goes from squats, to hack squats, to pendulum, to smith squats.
You want to know why people flip flop from machine to machine to movement to movement? because they are stubborn/ego lifting and rather than admitting that THEY are doing somethign wrong, it is easier on their ego to blame their body type/the machine and just scrap it and pikc something else.
So yes I 100% think all these words you are typing out is just you trying to convince yourself to keep doing something that is lees optimal and keep telling people that they can keep lifting improperly and not focusing on proper movement so they can lift better on ALL of their lifts.
Honestly ask yourself this question, What are you trying to defend? Are you trying to defend not working on proper movement?
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05-26-2022, 11:53 AM
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#37
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Originally Posted By AK1615⏩
Muscle damage does not illicit growthMuscle damage occurs the most during the eccentric portion of the lift, not the concentric
....so for growth.
We are talking bout lats and hypertrophy amirite?
....so for growth.
We are talking bout lats and hypertrophy amirite?
mechanical tension does
if you dont agree with this you have a lot of learning to do and we have no point discussing anything further because I guarantee 100% of all bodybuilding coaches who have any inkling of knowledge will 100% dagree muscle damage does not cause hypertrophy mechanical tension does
muscle damage actually just placed recovery demands on the body, more muscle damage = more recovery demands = less growth, this has also been proven by Brad Schoenfield and Chris Beardlsey and if you want to argue it I would Suggest you read their textbooks on hypertrophy that are used in every university in the country.
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05-26-2022, 11:55 AM
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#38
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Front lever muscle ups with strict form are pretty good
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05-26-2022, 11:55 AM
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#39
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Originally Posted By TheJimmyRustler⏩
no its notOP's definitive answer is literally saying that "rows are probably slightly better than pull ups."
So definitive.
So definitive.
my post is saying rows are 100% definitively unquestionable better than pull ups for lats, no probably, definitvely
idiots who dont know 1/5th of what I do about lifting and with 1/5th the experience are trying to argue that "different strokes for different folks" which is just a lame low IQ lazy excuse to keep doing things wrong and not learn more to do things better
I mean I am flat out giving an example of the guy who writes biomechanics and hypertrophy textbooks explaining it in plain english.
I really dont know why people are trying to argue it other than troll/rustle my jimmies
Also I understand sooby has proclaimed himself the lifting expert of the Misc but unfortunately some people learned a little more than him over the past couple years and he let his ego get ahead of his knowledge.
I spend my time looking for the BEST answers to my questions, I dont spend my time learning things that could "possibly" be just as good as many other things, so why the **** would I ever say "oh this lift is just as good as any other lift just do what you like" thats weak and lazy
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05-26-2022, 12:01 PM
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#40
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Originally Posted By EnochsProphecy⏩
The vertical/horizontal pull thing is an oversimplifaction of targeting multiple lats and upper back muscles. So yes you should but I am going into the indepth explanation of why.Rows will give you more back development than pullups, but does it matter? You should have horizontal and vertical movements in your program to maximize results/avoid overuse injuries.
Why?
Because many people can and DO do a horizontal and vertical pull movement and 90% of the muscles involved are upper back muscles and they never grow their lats and then they either say "I just dont have good lat genetics" or blame someone taking gear, or whatever other excuse they want to make up.
So what I am literally trying to do is help those people understand WHY they are not growing their lats.
What do I get?
those people arguing with me that im wrong and they are right and they are going to continue to wheelspin and feed their ego in the gym and not grow their lats and have a massive V taper.
Here, I obviously have no idea how to grow lats, listen to the guys in this thread with bigger lats than me
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05-26-2022, 12:02 PM
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#41
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Originally Posted By AshWar⏩
lol this, bodybuilding community is so fuking cringeWhat’s with the new trend of instagram biomechanics experts like Paul Carter and this twink OP posted
All the washed up roidheads are now experts on mUsCLe FiBrE aLiGnMeNt and biasing
Newsflash, your back isn’t big cause you align the line of pull with your lat muscle fibres. It’s cause of the chit you inject in your glutes every other day lmao
Also none of these biomechanics experts gained their size training the way they preach now. They were just as big when they were training with chit form years ago
All the washed up roidheads are now experts on mUsCLe FiBrE aLiGnMeNt and biasing
Newsflash, your back isn’t big cause you align the line of pull with your lat muscle fibres. It’s cause of the chit you inject in your glutes every other day lmao
Also none of these biomechanics experts gained their size training the way they preach now. They were just as big when they were training with chit form years ago
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05-26-2022, 12:08 PM
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#42
05-26-2022, 12:10 PM
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#43
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Originally Posted By AshWar⏩
Paul Carter is actually well liked and received by pretty much every top level IFBB pro so are you just saying putting out good knowledgable information so people can lift better/more productive and making that knowledge available to everyone and not just people who go to college and study biomechanics is a bad thing?What’s with the new trend of instagram biomechanics experts like Paul Carter and this twink OP posted
All the washed up roidheads are now experts on mUsCLe FiBrE aLiGnMeNt and biasing
Newsflash, your back isn’t big cause you align the line of pull with your lat muscle fibres. It’s cause of the chit you inject in your glutes every other day lmao
Also none of these biomechanics experts gained their size training the way they preach now. They were just as big when they were training with chit form years ago
All the washed up roidheads are now experts on mUsCLe FiBrE aLiGnMeNt and biasing
Newsflash, your back isn’t big cause you align the line of pull with your lat muscle fibres. It’s cause of the chit you inject in your glutes every other day lmao
Also none of these biomechanics experts gained their size training the way they preach now. They were just as big when they were training with chit form years ago
If you want to talk **** about what Paul Carter is doing then im interested to hear how you think he is harming and not benefiting the lifting community massively?
Why do you seem to put such a negative connotation to biomechanics knoweldge and muscle fiber alignment?
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05-26-2022, 12:12 PM
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#44
Originally Posted By MisterJustice⏩
These biomechanics experts have gained 100% of their size training like a bro, but now levitate above the rest of us by preaching this muscle fibre alignment bull**** pretending like that’s how they got biglol this, bodybuilding community is so fuking cringe
05-26-2022, 12:12 PM
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#45
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Originally Posted By EiFit91⏩
not for hypertrophy, its basically an inverted row with less stability. Less stability means more energy demeands from secondary/tertiary muscles. More involvement of other muscles than the target muscles is less conducive for hypertrophy and more CNS fatiguing. More CNS fatgue is also less conducive for hypertrophy because it places more recovery demands on the individual and doesnt allow them to get as many total stimulating reps in a day as if they did more isolated less CNS fatiguing exercises.IMO Gironda sternum chins are probably the best lat exercise
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05-26-2022, 12:13 PM
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#46
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Originally Posted By AshWar⏩
OrThese biomechanics experts have gained 100% of their size training like a bro, but now levitate above the rest of us by preaching this muscle fibre alignment bull**** pretending like that’s how they got big
quite possibly
over time they realized the things that grew best were from movements they did properly and the muscles they had a hard time growing they spent time learning more about and realized through their years of bodybuilding that they could have gone a lot further if they had known what they know now sooner, so they are trying to pass it on to other new lifters
but then theres people like you doing nothing good by arguing that what they are doing is bad
guess what also happens when you have biomechanics knowledge and align your joints with the muscle fibers you are trying to work?
YOU DONT GET INJURED
really dude what are you trying to argue here? it seems like you just have a personal Bias against biomechanics as a whole because you have some broscience self made idea that they got big just slangin and bangin heavy weights and slamming chicken and pasta and broccoli
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05-26-2022, 12:14 PM
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#47
Originally Posted By Jestbrah⏩
Did you gain all your size lifting this way? And why is it that pro bb’ers that don’t train that way are just as big as the ones that focus on muscle fibre alignment bs?Why do you seem to put such a negative connotation to biomechanics knoweldge and muscle fiber alignment?
05-26-2022, 12:16 PM
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#48
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Originally Posted By AshWar⏩
I literally did what I said in the post above this one.Did you gain all your size lifting this way? And why is it that pro bb’ers that don’t train that way are just as big as the ones that focus on muscle fibre alignment bs?
I realized the **** that wasnt growing (calves, lats, triceps) were because I wasnt using the muscles and was using secondary muscles as primary movers because I was too concerned with moving weight and doing different movements.
The things people are arguing in this thread are things I went through years ago and I was in their same position, the only thing is I understood I wasnt as smart as other people and I didnt try and argue with smarter more experienced lifters who wre trying to pass on the things they learned from THEIR mistakes.....
So what happened was I was overly cocky in my lifting when I was younger because I won a show, then all of a sudden as I was getting older some muscles started to atrophy and I realized it was because I was lifting like a bro. Then when I started using my brain and not working to build my ego, BOOM all of a sudden those muscles that had atrophied started growing bigger and way more aesthetic.
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05-26-2022, 12:23 PM
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#49
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Rows build thickness from what I read, what exactly does thickness mean? Like rear delts, rhomboids and traps? Or does it actually mean making all of the back muscles thicker and not wider? I have a wide back but lack thickness.
05-26-2022, 12:23 PM
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#50
05-26-2022, 12:28 PM
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#51
Originally Posted By Jestbrah⏩
So do the biggest pro bbers now and in the past focus on muscle fibre alignment and biasing their muscles in their training? Why aren’t the biomechanics experts destroying these dumb roidheads on stage?Then when I started using my brain and not working to build my ego, BOOM all of a sudden those muscles that had atrophied started growing bigger and way more aesthetic.
Originally Posted By EnochsProphecy⏩
Just saying that OP’s back probably looked the same when he wasn’t training the way he preaches nowlooking big. Anyways, how nice of you, but as you're well aware, natties will always point to the gear the second any enhanced lifter gives advice.
05-26-2022, 12:28 PM
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#52
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Originally Posted By scythiss1⏩
yeah usually "thickness" is a bad word used to describe having big traps or literally just bigger muscle period. This whole width vs depth is a horrible way to look at back training.Rows build thickness from what I read, what exactly does thickness mean? Like rear delts, rhomboids and traps? Or does it actually mean making all of the back muscles thicker and not wider? I have a wide back but lack thickness.
To really break up back training it just needs to be lats vs upper back
traps will be worked on any upper back movement, but you should try and use no traps on lats, and vice versa.
The biggest differenct is going to be Thoracic rotation and humerus movement.
A rounded or neutral back = lats, if you arch your back it deactivates 2/3 lat muscles. A neutral back or even arched can work upper back muscles.
Humerus to the side driving elbwos up and out works upper back, humerus in front /scapular place drawing down and into the body is lats.
Doing both enough is depth.
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05-26-2022, 12:29 PM
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#53
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Originally Posted By Jestbrah⏩
This is where the disconnect is coming from I think. You realize your like the only actual bodybuilder here right? The rest of us either lift to get strong or just to look good with our shirts off. If the average miscer swapped from doing pullups to rows and stuck with it 5 years I doubt a single nonbodybuilder would notice. Your talking about how to go from 99% potential to 99.5% and its just not applicable to anyone hereSo what happened was I was overly cocky in my lifting when I was younger because I won a show, then all of a sudden as I was getting older some muscles started to atrophy and I realized it was because I was lifting like a bro. Then when I started using my brain and not working to build my ego, BOOM all of a sudden those muscles that had atrophied started growing bigger and way more aesthetic.
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05-26-2022, 12:31 PM
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#54
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Originally Posted By AshWar⏩
Honestly, many lifters just naturally have fallen into those patterns. So when we have people saying "different lifts work differently for different people" that is half true, the half truth is that it is working better for them but WHY, the answer is because somehow their movement patterns growing up or playing sports just developed more inline with proper contraction of muscle fibersSo do the biggest pro bbers now and in the past focus on muscle fibre alignment and biasing their muscles in their training?
So we can 100% agree that the purpose of lifting is to bring a muscle from the lengthened to the contracted position yes?
So obviously the most optimal form of lifting would be creating the greatest amount of tension and greatest range of motion of each muscle fiber in a lift yes?
So we must align ourselves up in each lift to create the greatest contraction, aka bringing insertion point towards origin point, of the muscle fibers of an intended muscle to be worked.
Really this is just logic once you understand how the body works it has nothing to do with preference or body makeup. If you have longer femurs squats will be more challenging, but so will pendulum squats or hack squats, if they arent its because you are probably using the machine wrong to manipulate your movement and still do things wrong.
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05-26-2022, 12:37 PM
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#55
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Originally Posted By Jestbrah⏩
I'm aware of whatyou're sayingbut the post you linked to literally says that "rows are probably slightly better than pull ups."no its not
my post is saying rows are 100% definitively unquestionable better than pull ups for lats, no probably, definitvely
idiots who dont know 1/5th of what I do about lifting and with 1/5th the experience are trying to argue that "different strokes for different folks" which is just a lame low IQ lazy excuse to keep doing things wrong and not learn more to do things better
I mean I am flat out giving an example of the guy who writes biomechanics and hypertrophy textbooks explaining it in plain english.
I really dont know why people are trying to argue it other than troll/rustle my jimmies
Also I understand sooby has proclaimed himself the lifting expert of the Misc but unfortunately some people learned a little more than him over the past couple years and he let his ego get ahead of his knowledge.
I spend my time looking for the BEST answers to my questions, I dont spend my time learning things that could "possibly" be just as good as many other things, so why the **** would I ever say "oh this lift is just as good as any other lift just do what you like" thats weak and lazy
my post is saying rows are 100% definitively unquestionable better than pull ups for lats, no probably, definitvely
idiots who dont know 1/5th of what I do about lifting and with 1/5th the experience are trying to argue that "different strokes for different folks" which is just a lame low IQ lazy excuse to keep doing things wrong and not learn more to do things better
I mean I am flat out giving an example of the guy who writes biomechanics and hypertrophy textbooks explaining it in plain english.
I really dont know why people are trying to argue it other than troll/rustle my jimmies
Also I understand sooby has proclaimed himself the lifting expert of the Misc but unfortunately some people learned a little more than him over the past couple years and he let his ego get ahead of his knowledge.
I spend my time looking for the BEST answers to my questions, I dont spend my time learning things that could "possibly" be just as good as many other things, so why the **** would I ever say "oh this lift is just as good as any other lift just do what you like" thats weak and lazy
Slightly better. How definitive. How will people who do pull ups cope with this.
05-26-2022, 12:38 PM
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#56
05-26-2022, 12:43 PM
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#57
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Originally Posted By TBO1313⏩
nah yall should see how bad my lats looked 3 years ago. I mean REALLY bad.This is where the disconnect is coming from I think. You realize your like the only actual bodybuilder here right? The rest of us either lift to get strong or just to look good with our shirts off. If the average miscer swapped from doing pullups to rows and stuck with it 5 years I doubt a single nonbodybuilder would notice. Your talking about how to go from 99% potential to 99.5% and its just not applicable to anyone here
I am not telling people they need to put any more effort or anything into their lifting, quite the contrary, I am just saying do things better, and yes, you will see significant progress you did not before and be pretty surprised at how effortlessly you can grow when you do things with 80-90% efficacy instead of 30-50%
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05-26-2022, 12:43 PM
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#58
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Originally Posted By Jestbrah⏩
Do you do different variations of BB rows in terms of grip for lats or upper back? wondering if I should decrease the volume on my lats and up in on my middle back because it’s lacking pretty bad. Do you think flat back rows are still enough for the middle back? sorry for all the questions. My back just looks goofy, wide as **** but no thickness or depth as you put it.yeah usually "thickness" is a bad word used to describe having big traps or literally just bigger muscle period. This whole width vs depth is a horrible way to look at back training.
To really break up back training it just needs to be lats vs upper back
traps will be worked on any upper back movement, but you should try and use no traps on lats, and vice versa.
The biggest differenct is going to be Thoracic rotation and humerus movement.
A rounded or neutral back = lats, if you arch your back it deactivates 2/3 lat muscles. A neutral back or even arched can work upper back muscles.
Humerus to the side driving elbwos up and out works upper back, humerus in front /scapular place drawing down and into the body is lats.
Doing both enough is depth.
To really break up back training it just needs to be lats vs upper back
traps will be worked on any upper back movement, but you should try and use no traps on lats, and vice versa.
The biggest differenct is going to be Thoracic rotation and humerus movement.
A rounded or neutral back = lats, if you arch your back it deactivates 2/3 lat muscles. A neutral back or even arched can work upper back muscles.
Humerus to the side driving elbwos up and out works upper back, humerus in front /scapular place drawing down and into the body is lats.
Doing both enough is depth.
05-26-2022, 12:45 PM
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#59
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Originally Posted By TheJimmyRustler⏩
I dont think it is though. It depends on the person. The whole thing is explaining exactly how lats are more activated and how some lat muscles arent even activated in pull ups.I'm aware of whatyou're sayingbut the post you linked to literally says that "rows are probably slightly better than pull ups."
Slightly better. How definitive. How will people who do pull ups cope with this.
Slightly better. How definitive. How will people who do pull ups cope with this.
Like I said and like he said there are THREE lat muscles per side, the thoracic lats, the pelvic lats, and the lumbar lats. On pullups you are only really working 1 of the lat muscles much. So when you are wondering why your lats are underdeveloped its probably becaus eyou are never even working your lower or mid lats.
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05-26-2022, 12:46 PM
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#60
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didn't read a single word
pull ups mog
you're just mad you did so much drugs and you're too heavy now to do many pull ups, you're embarrassed. People see you and think you could do heaps of pull ups but you can barely do 3 now
pull ups mog
you're just mad you did so much drugs and you're too heavy now to do many pull ups, you're embarrassed. People see you and think you could do heaps of pull ups but you can barely do 3 now
Originally Posted By GooBaaa⏩
ofc you think this. you look 30% bodyfat, you can't even do 1 proper pull up. Seated rows > pull ups for youSeated rows > pullups
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