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» Energy Department: Lab Leak Most Likely Origin of Covid-19
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post 1677971593 02-26-2023, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted By Anachron
I mean, the last person I would need to agree with me is a person who is known for smearing chit on walls in defiance of the blatant government overreach that he supported until it was applied to him.
LMAOOOO.

Crazy CHIT is he'd probably still agree with government overreach regardless of him having a chit smearer temper tantrum in his covid pod.
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post 1677971683 02-26-2023, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted By Anachron
I mean, the last person I would need to agree with me is a person who is known for smearing chit on walls in defiance of the blatant government overreach that he supported until it was applied to him.

Edit : Not saying anything about DoE's claims or findings, I don't even know why they are looking at this in the first place. It's not their field to begin with.
They are sort of in charge of laboratories & research

Especially security of such
post 1677971693 02-26-2023, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted By Reliance012
You’ve yet to explain why finding either is a prerequisite for concluding that a natural origin is more likely than a lab leak. It’s akin to me saying, well who was the original worker infected and when did they travel to the market? Oh you don’t know. Guess it wasn’t a lab leak.
You seemed so confident that it was natural origins, I just wanted to see the direct evidence you have.

But, you don't have any? Lmao.

Originally Posted By Anachron
Thanks for agreeing with the post you quoted, and confirming that we do not actually know that it was of natural origins ( just like how we don't actually know it was a lab leak ).

You can't apply that thinking one way, and not the other.
^Yep. Pretty much sums it up.
post 1677971793 02-26-2023, 01:29 PM
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That's Russian disinformation!!!!1!one!!!1!
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post 1677972043 02-26-2023, 01:34 PM
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Originally Posted By Anachron
Thanks for agreeing with the post you quoted, and confirming that we do not actually know that it was of natural origins ( just like how we don't actually know it was a lab leak ).

You can't apply that thinking one way, and not the other.
Don’t you have a thread to be in where you post 50 straight times trying to sound clever without ever saying much of anything? And least you’re smart enough to know your place when it comes to discussing science. I’d avoid the topic if I were you too.
"Seen in the light of evolution, biology is, perhaps, intellectually the most satisfying and inspiring science. Without that light it becomes a pile of sundry facts -- some of them interesting or curious but making no meaningful picture as a whole."
post 1677972123 02-26-2023, 01:36 PM
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^^^ quietly glosses over the fact gwg pretty much obliterated him.
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post 1677972253 02-26-2023, 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted By Reliance012
Live mammals were sold at the market epicenter. And positive samples associated with vendors selling them.
So.... intentionally or unintentionally infecting animals and then selling them at the market.


Just because they were sold there, doesn't mean it was natural cause.
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post 1677972293 02-26-2023, 01:38 PM
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Where you at Ronaholics? Think this latest covid disrespect thread can get you queefing for another 300-400 posts?

It's a hot night. The mind races. You think about your knife: the only friend who hasn't betrayed you, the only friend who won't be dead by sunup. Sleep tight mates, in your quilted chambray night shirts.
post 1677972583 02-26-2023, 01:44 PM
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Originally Posted By gwg77
You seemed so confident that it was natural origins, I just wanted to see the direct evidence you have.

But, you don't have any? Lmao.





^Yep. Pretty much sums it up.
Now it’s “direct evidence”. Like the genome. No that doesn’t count. Like the epicenter epidemiology evidence? No that doesn’t count. Like the phylogenetic evidence for two independent spillover events? No that doesn’t count. Just because you don’t understand the evidence, doesn’t me you get to dismiss it.
"Seen in the light of evolution, biology is, perhaps, intellectually the most satisfying and inspiring science. Without that light it becomes a pile of sundry facts -- some of them interesting or curious but making no meaningful picture as a whole."
post 1677972623 02-26-2023, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted By Anachron
Just LOL @ pseudointellectuals srs.
You just don't understand science, man.

Just trust it.
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post 1677972683 02-26-2023, 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted By CalmWind
So.... intentionally or unintentionally infecting animals and then selling them at the market.


Just because they were sold there, doesn't mean it was natural cause.
What are the odds an infected lab worker at the WIV just happens to go and infect animals at a market 20km driving away?
"Seen in the light of evolution, biology is, perhaps, intellectually the most satisfying and inspiring science. Without that light it becomes a pile of sundry facts -- some of them interesting or curious but making no meaningful picture as a whole."
post 1677972693 02-26-2023, 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted By Reliance012
Now it’s “direct evidence”. Like the genome. No that doesn’t count. Like the epicenter epidemiology evidence? No that doesn’t count. Like the phylogenetic evidence for two independent spillover events? No that doesn’t count. Just because you don’t understand the evidence, doesn’t me you get to dismiss it.
Question -

Why keep focusing on the “market” when right down the street are a few hundred thousand partially dead bats with freshly exploded lungs caused by the pressure discrepancy laying under wind turbines.


Did you look at any of my citations?
post 1677972853 02-26-2023, 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted By Reliance012
Now it’s “direct evidence”. Like the genome. No that doesn’t count. Like the epicenter epidemiology evidence? No that doesn’t count. Like the phylogenetic evidence for two independent spillover events? No that doesn’t count. Just because you don’t understand the evidence, doesn’t me you get to dismiss it.
Yeah, I read Worobey's paper. Still, where is the direct evidence?
post 1677973023 02-26-2023, 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted By Reliance012
There are multiple lines of evidence for a natural origin, from epidemiological to evolutionary and molecular genetics.
There are zero lines of evidence for natural origin. There is zero evidence for natural origin.

No host/reservoir animal has ever been found, despite extreme efforts. No animal has proven anywhere near as susceptible to covid as humans.

Meanwhile the circumstantial evidence for a lab leak is overwhelming.

Natural origin is an evidence free statement of faith. A religion if you will. The only people who support it are certain scientific researchers who are either guilty of contributing to 7 million deaths, or a certain class of online warriors who have staked too much on it being true.
post 1677973193 02-26-2023, 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted By Anachron
What are the odds of the wet market being within 20km of one of only three BSL 4 facilities in China?

That happens to be the one that specializes in rodents and bats?

That happened to be researching SARS since 2005?
That had a huge database of bat coronavirus edited by humans that suddenly got deleted in late 2019.

That was temporarily shut down in late 2019, and reopened under military control.
post 1677973543 02-26-2023, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted By Anachron
What are the odds of the wet market being within 20km of one of only three BSL 4 facilities in China?

That happens to be the one that specializes in rodents and bats?

That happened to be researching SARS since 2005?
Not a wet market. The only wet market in a city of 11 million people that had previous evidence of selling live mammals in the months leading up to the pandemic, and a market with relatively low foot traffic.

And an outbreak near the WIV isn’t as unlikely as you’d like to believe. Estimates of the original transmissibility suggest only highly dense large cities could have sustained transmission chains at the initial outbreak, I.e the geographic area for where it could have started shrinks massively. On mobile but I’ll dig up the paper.
"Seen in the light of evolution, biology is, perhaps, intellectually the most satisfying and inspiring science. Without that light it becomes a pile of sundry facts -- some of them interesting or curious but making no meaningful picture as a whole."
post 1677973603 02-26-2023, 02:03 PM
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Did you read the article? "Low to moderate confidence" lol.
post 1677973813 02-26-2023, 02:06 PM
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Originally Posted By 128
This kunt who called it a dangerous conspiracy is still in denial, bet most libs will be

]
She's also one of the leading experts in virology.
post 1677974443 02-26-2023, 02:19 PM
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lold
post 1677974773 02-26-2023, 02:25 PM
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Originally Posted By Reliance012
Now it’s “direct evidence”. Like the genome. No that doesn’t count. Like the epicenter epidemiology evidence? No that doesn’t count. Like the phylogenetic evidence for two independent spillover events? No that doesn’t count. Just because you don’t understand the evidence, doesn’t me you get to dismiss it.
Originally Posted By gwg77
Yeah, I read Worobey's paper. Still, where is the direct evidence?
^^Found my comments on the Worobey paper from last year...

Originally Posted By gwg77
This is Mike Worobey's paper? Done with Eddie Holmes, Bob Garry and Kristian Andersen? Was this paper funded by Fauci and the NIH? Just Lmao.

This is the paper the the NY Times made a big deal about in February when it was in pre-print. And it was torn apart by scientists back then, too.



According to Alina Chan, there are a lot of flaws in this paper:
(1) After peer review, unscientific language was removed from the Worobey et al. manuscript. However, these strong claims in the preprint had already been widely reported in the media back in February 2022. Needless to say, those journalists likely will not be making corrections or publishing new stories to clarify that these excessive claims have now been eliminated by scientific peer review.

For example, both of the following strong assertions that were in the preprint have been revised; there are no longer claims of dispositive or incontrovertible evidence in the peer-reviewed paper:

“Together, these analyses provide dispositive evidence for the emergence of SARS-CoV-2 via the live wildlife trade and identify the Huanan market as the unambiguous epicenter of the COVID-19 pandemic.”

“Collectively, these results provide incontrovertible evidence that there was a clear conduit, via susceptible live mammals, for the zoonotic emergence of SARS-CoV-2 at the Huanan market towards the end of 2019.”

(2)The peer-reviewed paper has an entirely new section on “Study Limitations” which acknowledges that the scientists do not have access to the early Covid-19 case data or locations, lack direct evidence of a market animal infected with the pandemic virus, and lack complete details of how the market had been sampled for the virus.

Despite lacking access to data, Worobey et al. 2022 surprisingly claim in their preprint and the peer-reviewed paper that “positive environmental samples [were] linked both to live mammal sales and to human cases at the Huanan market.”

This stands in contrast to what the Chinese CDC claims in their own February 2022 preprint — that there was no link between positive environmental samples and the type of product sold by vendors. “The market might have acted as an amplifier due to the high number of visitors every day, causing many initially identified infection clusters in the early stage of the outbreak.”


Who is correct? Only the data can say. The Chinese CDC manuscript is still undergoing peer review. I hope that the journal and peer reviewers ask them to publish their complete dataset so that this question can be put to rest.

FYI the Worobey et al. Science article indicates that the supporting data for their analysis can be found in their preprint: “Data and materials availability: Data and code for this manuscript are available from (53).” Their preprint reveals that the data underlying their analysis came from two key sources: a media leak in June 2020 by the Epoch Times, and the China-WHO joint report in early 2021 which consisted of only information that had been provided by scientists in China.

(3)The paper still fails to acknowledge that early Covid-19 cases, regardless of whether the patient had a known link to the market, had been identified with ascertainment bias— reinforcing the initial perception that the Huanan seafood market was the early epicenter of the Wuhan outbreak.

Multiple reports from the early days of the pandemic and even the China-WHO joint study tell us that, due to the initial suspicion that the virus had spilled over from illegal wildlife sold at the market, the retrospective identification of December 2019 coronavirus cases included in their case definition a link to the Huanan market and early surveillance focused on hospitals near the market and the neighborhood of the market; this market bias was only removed from the criteria for identifying potential Covid-19 cases on January 18, 2020.

This cannot be stressed enough: Early cases with no links to the market had been identified almost solely through searching the hospitals near the market and the neighborhood of the market.This is why even the unlinked cases look like they cluster around the market.

Later retrospective searches that removed the requirement for a link or proximity to the market (or its neighborhood and nearby hospitals) for early Covid-19 cases in 2019 in Wuhan were reportedly unproductive (see the China-WHO joint study report).This means that, due to the ascertainment bias, early clusters and cases without links to the market, hospitals near the market, or the neighborhood of the market would have easily been missed.
Continued here:

https://ayjchan.medium.com/evidence-...w-af95b52499e1
post 1677975063 02-26-2023, 02:31 PM
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Originally Posted By Reliance012
Not a wet market. The only wet market in a city of 11 million people that had previous evidence of selling live mammals in the months leading up to the pandemic, and a market with relatively low foot traffic.

And an outbreak near the WIV isn’t as unlikely as you’d like to believe. Estimates of the original transmissibility suggest only highly dense large cities could have sustained transmission chains at the initial outbreak, I.e the geographic area for where it could have started shrinks massively. On mobile but I’ll dig up the paper.
lmao

srsly lol
post 1677975133 02-26-2023, 02:32 PM
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@Reliance012

More from Worobey paper:
Originally Posted By gwg77
At the very least, after peer review, the Worobey et al. 2022 paper now says: “However, the observation that the preponderance of early cases were linked to the Huanan market does not establish that the pandemic originated there.”At the very least, after peer review, the Worobey et al. 2022 paper now says: “However, the observation that the preponderance of early cases were linked to the Huanan market does not establish that the pandemic originated there.”





Originally Posted By gwg77
A note on the “2 strains 2 spillover” hypothesis proposed by Worobey and Pekar et al. 2022 Science:A note on the “2 strains 2 spillover” hypothesis proposed by Worobey and Pekar et al. 2022 Science:
For most people, this is probably the first time you’re hearing about 2 strains of the pandemic virus that spilled over from animal to human in the Wuhan market.

Why haven’t you heard about this till now? Wasn’t it just one virus that emerged in Wuhan in late 2019?

This is because it was just the 1 virus (1 strain) that emerged in Wuhan in late 2019.

The so-called “2 strains” — one is called lineage A and the other is called lineage B — that you’re hearing about in the news today are the same virus but with only 2 mutations differentiating A and B. Consider that the virus genome is close to 30,000 letters long. It’s a bit of a stretch to say that A and B are two different strains. For context, the Alpha variant has 44 mutations compared to the original Wuhan virus; the Delta has 50 mutations compared to the Wuhan version; and the Omicron has 113 mutations compared to the Wuhan virus. Within a single infected individual, there are billions of virus particles, many of which carry different sets of mutations. If we start to separate “strains” of the virus by only 1–2 mutations, this would mean that every Covid-19 patient is carrying possibly thousands of different strains of the virus.

With only 2 mutations separating the “2 strains”, there is no need for more than one introduction of the virus into the human population to have occurred.Each time a person infects another person with the virus, there is already an estimated 5–10% chance the virus will pick up 2 mutations.For example, in theDiamond Princess cruise outbreak in early 2020, a single introduction of the virus into the cruise passenger population resulted in some of the virus picking up 5 mutations within ~3 weeks of the first infected person developing symptoms.

So it is much more likely that a single version of the virus was introduced into the human population in Wuhan, transmitted undetected, and quickly picked up 2 mutations — as opposed to the “2 strains 2 spillover” hypothesis proposed by Worobey and Pekar et al. 2022 Science, where there has to be 2 separate transmissions of the same virus from as yet still missing infected animals into people at the Wuhan market.Considering that no direct evidence exists for even a single zoonotic spillover at one market, a single introduction of the virus into the Wuhan human population is most consistent with the data available thus far.

So why are Worobey and Pekar et al. pitching a “2 strains 2 spillover” hypothesis if there was really only the 1 strain and no direct evidence of even a single spillover?

This is because the early cases at the Wuhan market were all only infected by the B version of the virus. So, the question is where did the A version of the virus come from? Furthermore, the A version is widely considered to have preceded the B version — indeed, it was named lineage A because it was presumed to come before lineage B–andseveral early patients who did not visit the market were found to be infected with A.For instance,one family from Shenzhenvisited Wuhan between 29 December and 4 January, and without any known exposure to the market picked up the A virus. (On a more technical note: It is very unlikely that A evolved from B because the virus is more likely to mutate away from the closest bat virus relative. There are so many possible mutations a virus can pick up to make it better at spreading in human and other animal species, why would it pick the 2 mutations that revert towards the bat version? See these two studies for more details.)


Under these circumstances, the scenario most strongly supported by the available genetic and epidemiological evidence is that the virus had started infecting people somewhere in the city, a patient carrying the (later) B version visited the market and sparked off the early superspreader event.Remember that the market, with a retail space of ~ 10 USA football fields, had an estimated ten thousand visitors a day, and was situated in one of the most densely populated and centrally located neighborhoods in Wuhan. It is also located close to several of the main hospitals in the city center of Wuhan. It is not a surprise that the poorly ventilated, crowded wet market would have been a prime location for an early Covid-19 superspreader event.

This obviously puts proponents of the Wuhan market origin in a tough spot. How can they explain that the available evidence doesn’t seem to point to the market being the original site of an animal-to-human or even the first human-to-human transmission of the virus?
https://ayjchan.medium.com/evidence-...w-af95b52499e1
post 1677975173 02-26-2023, 02:32 PM
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Originally Posted By gwg77
^^Found my comments on the Worobey paper from last year...
What about the phylogenetic evidence that showed covid was most closely related to viruses found in bats in Laos? Was anyone at WIV researching that? And why was the FCS sequence not a known sequence? I mean, it is possible this was some secret project gone awry, but it doesn't seem very likely.

Anyway, low confidence results aren't really going to cut it. But if they have some new evidence or argument, they should release it to the public
post 1677975523 02-26-2023, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted By TaiMaiSchutze
What about the phylogenetic evidence that showed covid was most closely related to viruses found in bats in Laos? Was anyone at WIV researching that? And why was the FCS sequence not a known sequence? I mean, it is possible this was some secret project gone awry, but it doesn't seem very likely.
BANAL-52 I think was closer than RaTG13.

We'll never know what WIV was researching because they won't share anything. They even shutdown the WHO when they tried to investigate.
post 1677975903 02-26-2023, 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted By gwg77
BANAL-52 I think was closer than RaTG13.

We'll never know what WIV was researching because they won't share anything. They even shutdown the WHO when they tried to investigate.
That's what I am saying though. That was found for bat viruses in Laos. We do know at least what they were publicly researching. There's no way to know the secret defense stuff. Also the FCS is completely novel and was unknown (at least publicly). Again, it is possible it was all a secret project, but it seems a stretch. Also, we do know China did other secret work there and didn't want the WHO fishing around. So there's that.

It's possible, but pretty unlikely it is a lab leak. If they could show the evidence, that would be good.

But they themselves reported it as low confidence. So this isn't really any kind of smoking gun.
post 1677976183 02-26-2023, 02:49 PM
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we all know it was because of her that it ended up here in the states
post 1677976353 02-26-2023, 02:52 PM
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This reliance tard has moved on to mental parkour....... Jesus ****ing Christ. Admit you fell for some B's like a lot of other people and move the **** on with your life holy ****.
post 1677976493 02-26-2023, 02:54 PM
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Originally Posted By vickissick07
This reliance tard has moved on to mental parkour....... Jesus ****ing Christ. Admit you fell for some B's like a lot of other people and move the **** on with your life holy ****.
How do you know you aren't getting played by the US intel community? A finding in low confidence that makes a foreign nation look bad? Gee where have we seen this before?

The smartest thing to do would be to demand the actual evidence before jumping to any conclusions.
post 1677977793 02-26-2023, 03:15 PM
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@Reliance012

More of my Worobey posts from last year:
Originally Posted By gwg77
Yep, this is a total bust for the shіt smearer.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/scien...-wuhan-market/

post 1677977923 02-26-2023, 03:17 PM
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  1. GooBaaa
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  3. Location: Buffalo NY
  4. Posts: 58,762
  5. Subscribers: 5
  6. Rep Power: 434829
Why does it even matter at this point

Nothing will happen and nothing will change
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