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Forum » More General Categories » Misc. » **╚═╦═╝** The Official San Francisco 49ers Thread Part VI **╚═╦═╝**
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11-17-2021, 09:47 AM
#7411
Originally Posted By BigDeeps01
They won't, that's the issue. We always have the Rams number
I know.
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11-17-2021, 06:44 PM
#7412
Originally Posted By iamgenus
lol Lance is 21 years old dude. Find me a QB who at 21 was a finished product?
….that's the point. You draft a QB to reset your franchise. You don't draft a QB to win the superbowl. The 49ers pretty much closed the superbowl window created from amazing draft luck.

Was Mahomes an awful pick by the Chiefs because he didn't play as a rookie until week 17?
Yes, Mahomes was a bad decision that worked out. As stated before, if you are playing poker and go all-in with 5% equity and you happen to luck out then you are way better off than if you didn't do it. That doesn't make the decision any less stupid or unsustainable in the long run.

There were several teams who had Lance graded high. Atlanta was going Lance by all accounts before we moved up in front of them. Denver liked him a lot.
This is a lie. The Falcons GM stated, “No way we weren’t drafting Kyle Pitts” and there was even a cheer in the Falcon's war room when Lance was drafted.

There's a reason for that. Doesn't mean we or those other teams were right but considering Trey hasn't had a chance to be out there and play/develop the "god awful Lance move" is far from that at this point.
This is stupid. The Lance move was god awful the moment it happened. It is still god-awful. If Lance becomes Tom Brady, it will still be god-awful. At the time, there was nothing to suggest Lance was head and shoulders ahead of Jones or Fields. As time passes, there is still nothing to suggest that he is significantly better. It was a bad decision, period.

Fans in general have terrible patience when it comes to high draft picks but you gotta deal with it. There have been plenty of recent examples of guys who needed time but had all the tools. We'll see if Lance joins their ranks or ends up being another high potential bust who never comes close to what he was supposed to be.
Again…this is exactly why Lance was a stupid pick.
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11-17-2021, 07:05 PM
#7413
I still 100% believe in Lance (you’re an idiot if you think any of these rookie QB’s are anywhere close to finished products) but I will say I thought Mac was the best pick. Idiots in the media were too enamored with the other QB’s athleticism that they forgot all the other traits that can make a QB special.

We could’ve stayed at 12 and took Mac but we still wouldn’t be winning a Super Bowl with the current state of the roster.

The worst decision this FO has made IMO is trading Buckner. Saved very little money after the Armstead extension and proceeded to draft a dude with massive knee issues. If we had Bosa and Buckner our defensive line would be elite as long as those two stay healthy. Instead Bosa gets double teamed and we don’t produce much of a pass rush.

Sign Buckner, let Armstead walk, get a comp pick and then draft Michael Pittman or Tee Higgins. Our team would be so much better.

And Kyle needs to less control of the roster. Hes an offensive mastermind. He’s not a great talent evaluator. Not even sure he’s a great head coach. The constant doghouse stuff is infuriating. He insists on trading up for guys like Aiyuk and Sermon and Pettis and then they don’t exceed his wild expectations and he gets pissy and ignores them. John Lynch must be pissed making these moves for Shanny only to see him bench them months later.
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11-18-2021, 06:07 AM
#7414
Originally Posted By dyee4613
….that's the point. You draft a QB to reset your franchise. You don't draft a QB to win the superbowl. The 49ers pretty much closed the superbowl window created from amazing draft luck.
There is a reason they kept Jimmy Garoppolo this year - right or wrong they wanted their cake and to eat it to. And is that amazing draft luck sarcasm? You know what opens a SB window WIDE open? Having a QB who can attack all areas of the field. This leads me into the next point…


Originally Posted By dyee4613
Yes, Mahomes was a bad decision that worked out. As stated before, if you are playing poker and go all-in with 5% equity and you happen to luck out then you are way better off than if you didn't do it. That doesn't make the decision any less stupid or unsustainable in the long run.
Did the Chiefs SB window close when they took Mahomes? No it blew wide open. And this isn't poker man, this is the NFL. If you hit on a QB you're winning football games as long as your roster isn't straight ass. That's the one thing you're glossing over. Draft picks are unknown in the grand scheme of things. IF Lance is a hit it doesn't matter what we gave up for him. It's only an awful move if he turns out to be **** and regardless of what people want to say we have no idea what he will BE.

So back to your poker analogy the result is you won the hand. Regardless of how stupid or against the odds the decision was…you won. When you win the rest doesn't matter. I saw a clip of a dude bluffing someone with something like 5 2 off suit and the guy he bluffed out had pocket kings. Yeah it's a stupid decision but in the end it's a balls on the table decision where you win. Sometimes you gotta go against the odds and get paid out big time.


Originally Posted By dyee4613
This is a lie. The Falcons GM stated, “No way we weren’t drafting Kyle Pitts” and there was even a cheer in the Falcon's war room when Lance was drafted.
Find me a GM who did haven't the guy they drafted in the top 10 as the top guy on their draft board at their pick…it was covered by a few reporters, what you call as the cheers was the Falcons guys calling Shanahan going with Lance as in they expected it. If the Falcons brass knew we were picking ahead of them and assumed it was Lance what exactly could they do to stop that from happening?


Originally Posted By dyee4613
This is stupid. The Lance move was god awful the moment it happened. It is still god-awful. If Lance becomes Tom Brady, it will still be god-awful. At the time, there was nothing to suggest Lance was head and shoulders ahead of Jones or Fields. As time passes, there is still nothing to suggest that he is significantly better. It was a bad decision, period.

Again…this is exactly why Lance was a stupid pick.

Imagine making the statement that if Lance becomes Tom Brady the move to draft him is god-awful. Are you hearing yourself? I find it funny that when everyone was mocking Mac Jones to the 49ers at 3 most people had 0 issue with it, even though the bulk of those same people didn't see him as a top 20 prospect in the draft but because Kyle Shanahan wanted him suddenly it wasn't an issue because of Kyle Shanahan.

But now that we drafted Lance and he's not starting instantly as a 21 year old it's a god awful move and there was nothing to suggest Lance was head and shoulders ahead of Jones or Fields. Now granted I was in here hoping Fields was our pick…isn't it fair to say if there's a reason Shanahan wanted him that much then MAYBE there's something to it?

Then again I'm not sure why I'm wasting my time rationalizing the move to you when you say the move is awful even if Lance turns into a Tom Brady lol. Dumbest **** I've read in a while and that's saying a lot.

Somehow drafting a kid who can win you 7 SBs while giving up a few first round picks would be a god-awful move smh.
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11-18-2021, 06:20 AM
#7415
Originally Posted By Blasting
I still 100% believe in Lance (you’re an idiot if you think any of these rookie QB’s are anywhere close to finished products) but I will say I thought Mac was the best pick. Idiots in the media were too enamored with the other QB’s athleticism that they forgot all the other traits that can make a QB special.

We could’ve stayed at 12 and took Mac but we still wouldn’t be winning a Super Bowl with the current state of the roster.

The worst decision this FO has made IMO is trading Buckner. Saved very little money after the Armstead extension and proceeded to draft a dude with massive knee issues. If we had Bosa and Buckner our defensive line would be elite as long as those two stay healthy. Instead Bosa gets double teamed and we don’t produce much of a pass rush.

Sign Buckner, let Armstead walk, get a comp pick and then draft Michael Pittman or Tee Higgins. Our team would be so much better.

And Kyle needs to less control of the roster. Hes an offensive mastermind. He’s not a great talent evaluator. Not even sure he’s a great head coach. The constant doghouse stuff is infuriating. He insists on trading up for guys like Aiyuk and Sermon and Pettis and then they don’t exceed his wild expectations and he gets pissy and ignores them. John Lynch must be pissed making these moves for Shanny only to see him bench them months later.
I don't like to talk in hindsight because you're not changing anything but obviously the big question will be whether the trade up for Lance would be worth it in the long run.

Before our trade up I was all in on Mac. I liked him a lot because I thought he'd be a similar player to Garoppolo for a cheaper contract and actually more accuracy down the field.

But after we traded up to me Jones was out of the question. Lance by all accounts also has those things you bring up as what makes a QB special. Dude was running a pro style offense like a seasoned vet when he was 19. We're talking NFL concepts, we're talking calling protection, reading the defense and even helping older kids learn the scheme and implement the offense.

Now obviously the NFL is a major level up from NDSU so the schemes are much more complex and the speed of the game is much faster. There is an adjustment period. Still Lance is 21, there is a ton of room for growth. So many QBs have taken big steps as passers during that age. Dak Prescott, Lamar Jackson, Josh Allen, etc.


Also in regards to Kyle's doghouse…I'm not a fan BUT clearly sometimes it works out and there is a reason for it. Aiyuk himself opened up and said he was basically half assing it in practice. The whole doghouse thing clearly clicked for him finally. Cuz he's playing with so much more intensity right now and the team is clearly getting better as a result. Some guys are built different and they can come out better as a result. Pettis was just "whatever" Aiyuk seems to have realized what's needed from him to make him a better player. We'll see if Trey Sermon clicks.

But that does bring me back to your other point…player evaluations with Kyle. Why are we drafting all these guys who need to go into the doghouse to see if they come out better? I didn't get the Banks pick but loved we were trying to protect the franchise. I didn't like the Sermon pick because I think Kyle can get production from late round RBs(Mitchell says hi)

Kyle definitely needs a wake up call with player evaluations. We better hope the one he gets right is Trey Lance. Here's hoping we're 1/2 hitting on 3rd overall pick.

Long story short - if Trey turns into a stud QB everything else will fall into place.
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11-18-2021, 10:36 AM
#7416
Originally Posted By Blasting

The worst decision this FO has made IMO is trading Buckner. Saved very little money after the Armstead extension and proceeded to draft a dude with massive knee issues. If we had Bosa and Buckner our defensive line would be elite as long as those two stay healthy. Instead Bosa gets double teamed and we don’t produce much of a pass rush.

Sign Buckner, let Armstead walk, get a comp pick and then draft Michael Pittman or Tee Higgins. Our team would be so much better.
Yup, losing Buckner was a MASSIVE mistake. People forget that the team was BUILT around a dominant dline. You take away the centerpiece and suddenly everything looks average now. The dline right now is about average, Buckner was the key. Also, he was a leader in the locker room. Really a dumb decision.
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11-18-2021, 07:14 PM
#7417
Originally Posted By iamgenus
There is a reason they kept Jimmy Garoppolo this year - right or wrong they wanted their cake and to eat it to. And is that amazing draft luck sarcasm? You know what opens a SB window WIDE open? Having a QB who can attack all areas of the field. This leads me into the next point…
The 49ers have been a very good drafting team. The 49ers lucked into Kittle and Warner.

Did the Chiefs SB window close when they took Mahomes? No it blew wide open. And this isn't poker man, this is the NFL. If you hit on a QB you're winning football games as long as your roster isn't straight ass. That's the one thing you're glossing over. Draft picks are unknown in the grand scheme of things. IF Lance is a hit it doesn't matter what we gave up for him. It's only an awful move if he turns out to be **** and regardless of what people want to say we have no idea what he will BE.
This is is basic risk management. You can't just keep saying "BUT WHAT IF IT WORKS". You need to factor in the impact of it not working out and how likely he will be a bust or a star.

So back to your poker analogy the result is you won the hand. Regardless of how stupid or against the odds the decision was…you won. When you win the rest doesn't matter. I saw a clip of a dude bluffing someone with something like 5 2 off suit and the guy he bluffed out had pocket kings. Yeah it's a stupid decision but in the end it's a balls on the table decision where you win. Sometimes you gotta go against the odds and get paid out big time.
…really?

Find me a GM who did haven't the guy they drafted in the top 10 as the top guy on their draft board at their pick…it was covered by a few reporters, what you call as the cheers was the Falcons guys calling Shanahan going with Lance as in they expected it. If the Falcons brass knew we were picking ahead of them and assumed it was Lance what exactly could they do to stop that from happening?
- GM says he wanted Pitts
- War Room cheered when Lance was drafted
- GM cancels a trade he is working on

Vs the Broncos beatwriter? Okay…

Imagine making the statement that if Lance becomes Tom Brady the move to draft him is god-awful. Are you hearing yourself? I find it funny that when everyone was mocking Mac Jones to the 49ers at 3 most people had 0 issue with it, even though the bulk of those same people didn't see him as a top 20 prospect in the draft but because Kyle Shanahan wanted him suddenly it wasn't an issue because of Kyle Shanahan.
Unbelievable comprehension skills.

But now that we drafted Lance and he's not starting instantly as a 21 year old it's a god awful move and there was nothing to suggest Lance was head and shoulders ahead of Jones or Fields. Now granted I was in here hoping Fields was our pick…isn't it fair to say if there's a reason Shanahan wanted him that much then MAYBE there's something to it?
I said it was god awful, in this thread, the day after it happened. I directly quoted you and had this same insane conversation. It had/has nothing to do with Lance. It has everything to do with him being a horrible fit for the organization. He is a prospect so of course it will take a while for him to develop. It was stupid to pick him that is why teams in a similar situation like the 49ers don't make stupid decisions like this because they become crappy teams real fast.


Then again I'm not sure why I'm wasting my time rationalizing the move to you when you say the move is awful even if Lance turns into a Tom Brady lol. Dumbest **** I've read in a while and that's saying a lot.

Somehow drafting a kid who can win you 7 SBs while giving up a few first round picks would be a god-awful move smh.
Unbelievable comprehension.
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11-18-2021, 07:35 PM
#7418
Mac Jones would've been freaking nasty in the Shanny Offense
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11-19-2021, 07:29 AM
#7419
Originally Posted By ghostfacedup
Yup, losing Buckner was a MASSIVE mistake. People forget that the team was BUILT around a dominant dline. You take away the centerpiece and suddenly everything looks average now. The dline right now is about average, Buckner was the key. Also, he was a leader in the locker room. Really a dumb decision.
I wish we could've kept Buckner but people are blowing that move out of proportion.

Buckner is getting paid like Aaron Donald but he's not on that level. Buck is a great dude, great pass rusher but he wasn't Aaron Donald level.

Funny thing is everyone was up in arms claiming how the 49ers chose Armstead and Ward over Buckner. That's not what happened.

They chose a whole bunch of people over Buckner. They realized they had a bunch of people to pay and only so many resources to go around.

If we extended Buckner we lose a bunch of other guys and Trent Williams is probably in KC now.

And Buckner wasn't the key to our DL. It was Bosa and Ford. Unfortunately Ford is a shell of himself even when he's out there now. Bosa doesn't get any holding calls and other guys haven't stepped up. If you look at the numbers from 2019 Buckner was good but he wasn't that dominant. Armstead, Ford and Bosa all had much better per snap production.

Now everyone is freaking out because Kinlaw is injured and suddenly our DL depth is suspect. That will happen when you lose 2 of the 3 guys who are considered starter level - Kinlaw, Jones and Hurst.

It's not that Buckner is the glue who held everything together(considering just look at our defense when he was the main guy on that DL) it's that we don't have guys inside outside of DJ Jones who can really play pass/run well or hold up blocks well enough.
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11-19-2021, 07:56 AM
#7420
Originally Posted By dyee4613
The 49ers have been a very good drafting team. The 49ers lucked into Kittle and Warner.


This is is basic risk management. You can't just keep saying "BUT WHAT IF IT WORKS". You need to factor in the impact of it not working out and how likely he will be a bust or a star.


…really?


- GM says he wanted Pitts
- War Room cheered when Lance was drafted
- GM cancels a trade he is working on

Vs the Broncos beatwriter? Okay…


Unbelievable comprehension skills.


I said it was god awful, in this thread, the day after it happened. I directly quoted you and had this same insane conversation. It had/has nothing to do with Lance. It has everything to do with him being a horrible fit for the organization. He is a prospect so of course it will take a while for him to develop. It was stupid to pick him that is why teams in a similar situation like the 49ers don't make stupid decisions like this because they become crappy teams real fast.



Unbelievable comprehension.
Amazing draft luck implies across the board luck. Solomon Thomas, Reuben Foster, Dante Pettis, Jalen Hurd, etc says amazing draft luck is not something they've had.

The draft is always a risk. There are no guarantees in the draft which is why we've had first round picks like Solomon Thomas, Reuben Foster be complete disappointments or guys like Mike McGlinchey or Javon Kinlaw be either underwhelming picks or guys trending in the wrong direction.

You have the luxury of bashing the Trey Lance pick as being an awful decision because Lance isn't playing or showing what he can do, especially because he's a prospect who has a lot of growth to show.

If it doesn't work out with Trey then Kyle Shanahan is no longer the HC of the 49ers. It's a move he agreed to make knowing full well what it means for his career. So you can sit here bitching about the move being something no other team makes but i'll let Shanahan put his job on the line and see how it turns out.


Albright has plenty of national connections and he wasn't the only one who had Falcons tied to Lance. If you can't tell what GM speak is then I question your decision making in general. Every GM always claims their top choice was always their top choice. Even your attempt to use logic on why they wanted Pitts first doesn't make sense. If their guy claims he knew the 49ers were going Lance then why would they be working on a trade? Maybe it was because they weren't? The trade offers came in while they were on the clock.

Regardless none of that sh*t matters. It's all speculation for the most part. What we do know is after the 49ers drafted Lance several QB needy teams avoided the other QBs. So you can sit here and act like Lance was some awful pick but there is nothing behind that.

Which leads me back to the "unbelievable comprehension" BS. It's right there on the page man. This is the NFL draft. Thinking a move is awful regardless of the result is pure idiocy.

And that's something you fail to see because you clearly can't understand making an aggressive move like this. This league is QB driven now. If Lance turns into an elite QB the move is brilliant. If he bombs it will be god awful.

Draft trades or picks are all about the end result.

That's why the 2017 Round 1 at the time was brilliant and everyone cheered what the 49ers did and across the board they got A/A+ for that first round and the trade they made with the Bears and still got Thomas and Foster.

How we feeling about that round now?

That's the point you're failing to grasp because you have the patience of a toddler apparently.
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11-19-2021, 09:00 AM
#7421
Originally Posted By iamgenus


And Buckner wasn't the key to our DL. It was Bosa and Ford. Unfortunately Ford is a shell of himself even when he's out there now. Bosa doesn't get any holding calls and other guys haven't stepped up. If you look at the numbers from 2019 Buckner was good but he wasn't that dominant. Armstead, Ford and Bosa all had much better per snap production.
Everything I've hear is that Buckner was the leader of that Defense. He freed up other people, especially Armstead. There's a reason why Armstead has been MEH since he extended. It's not about numbers, look at the attention Buckner would get.
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11-19-2021, 09:58 AM
#7422
Originally Posted By dyee4613
You draft a QB to reset your franchise. You don't draft a QB to win the superbowl.

Yes, Mahomes was a bad decision that worked out.

If Lance becomes Tom Brady, it will still be god-awful.
These might be some of the worst takes I've seen. You are grading drafts as they happen. You can't grade a draft until at the very least 3 years down the road. Go look at the 2016 or 2017 drafts and look at how they were graded a day after the draft. Then compare that grade to what they actually look like right now.

The Chiefs drafted Mahomes bc they knew what they had in Alex Smith. They didnt reset their franchise, they literally drafted a QB to take them to the Super Bowl. 49ers drafting Lance are trying to do the same thing. Only time will tell if they messed up or not.
LOL @ people who follow politics
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11-19-2021, 10:04 AM
#7423
Originally Posted By ghostfacedup
Everything I've hear is that Buckner was the leader of that Defense. He freed up other people, especially Armstead. There's a reason why Armstead has been MEH since he extended. It's not about numbers, look at the attention Buckner would get.
I'm iffy on the Buckner trade. They underestimated his value as a leader and it shows. Also as per Genus point, they made that move to resign a host of others. Say what you will about Ward but he makes the secondary better and we saw agianst the Cards B team what happens when he's not back there. I'm in the belief that paying defensive tackles top dollar isnt the greatest idea. Rarely do they impact games like Aaron Donald can. If Kinlaw gets healthy and becomes a pro bowler i think the move worked out. Its just so easy to 2nd guess right now since Kinlaw is injured. I can tell you this, the run game has suffered since Kinlaw is out too.
LOL @ people who follow politics
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11-19-2021, 06:03 PM
#7424
Originally Posted By ghostfacedup
Everything I've hear is that Buckner was the leader of that Defense. He freed up other people, especially Armstead. There's a reason why Armstead has been MEH since he extended. It's not about numbers, look at the attention Buckner would get.
Buckner was the leader but you can bring in those guys via FA. You don’t have to overpay them because of it though.

I wish Buckner was still here. He was a great leader, teammate and he stayed healthy but let’s take feelings out of it and look at reality.

Buckner got a top 2 DT salary. Has he ever been a clear top guy behind Donald? Look at how mediocre we were at stopping the run when he was our best player on D? Yeah he was a rookie in 2016 but we were awful at it.

The defense didn’t really make a major jump until we added Bosa, Ford and as far as leadership goes guys like Kwon and Sherman probably had just as much if not more of an impact on getting that unit to play top level D.

Hell even last year with injuries to Bosa and Ford no Buckner our defense was still decent and better than they were when Buckner was there prior to 2019.

People want to make the jump to how if Buckner was here everything is suddenly better. I mean yeah, if we still had him things would be better. Would they be that much better than if we had Kinlaw and Hurst healthy?

Losing Buck sucked. But it’s not the franchise killing move some are making it to be. We have plenty of other issues not related to that decision.

Now if Kinlaw never gets right and develops it will be a major pain point but the team had to make a tough decision to try to keep as much of that 2019 SB team together. And despite all the **** Armstead and Ward get they’ve played well for us last two seasons. We were able to bring those two back and sign a BUNCH of other guys last year and again this year because we didn’t give Buck that huge deal. Call me crazy but I’d rather have Trent Williams than Buckner.
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11-19-2021, 06:05 PM
#7425
Originally Posted By Miked1978
These might be some of the worst takes I've seen. You are grading drafts as they happen. You can't grade a draft until at the very least 3 years down the road. Go look at the 2016 or 2017 drafts and look at how they were graded a day after the draft. Then compare that grade to what they actually look like right now.
I have a hypothetical for you. It is 2002. You are the Houston Texans. You trade the first overall pick to New England for the 199th pick. You use that pick to select Tom Brady. Does that make the trade better? No. The two are unrelated. It's that simple.

This is why you people are so frustrating. The argument should be Lance has qualities that justify taking a gamble on him that other QBs do not. You have not made a single argument as to why we explicitly needed to trade up for Lance. That is why the trade is awful. For the 100th time, it has nothing to do with Lance and everything to do with the lack of logic behind the move.

Originally Posted By iamgenus
Amazing draft luck implies across the board luck. Solomon Thomas, Reuben Foster, Dante Pettis, Jalen Hurd, etc says amazing draft luck is not something they've had.
That is a stupid interpretation. The odds of Kittle being a starter were about 15 to 1. He became top 2 at his position. There was a 7 to 1 percent chance Warner would be a starter. That is amazing luck. From 2016 to 2018, we picked a top 3 player in at a position. That is very rare. In 2019, we picked Bosa who is arguably our best defensive player and Deebo is who is arguably our best offensive player.

You have the luxury of bashing the Trey Lance pick as being an awful decision because Lance isn't playing or showing what he can do, especially because he's a prospect who has a lot of growth to show.
I have not bashed Lance once. I said moving up to pick him was awful.

Albright has plenty of national connections and he wasn't the only one who had Falcons tied to Lance. If you can't tell what GM speak is then I question your decision making in general. Every GM always claims their top choice was always their top choice. Even your attempt to use logic on why they wanted Pitts first doesn't make sense. If their guy claims he knew the 49ers were going Lance then why would they be working on a trade? Maybe it was because they weren't? The trade offers came in while they were on the clock.
lol ok

Which leads me back to the "unbelievable comprehension" BS. It's right there on the page man. This is the NFL draft. Thinking a move is awful regardless of the result is pure idiocy.
Do you think trading the 1st overall pick for the 199th overall pick is a move we cannot evaluate until Tom Brady retires?
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11-19-2021, 06:06 PM
#7426
Originally Posted By Miked1978
I'm iffy on the Buckner trade. They underestimated his value as a leader and it shows. Also as per Genus point, they made that move to resign a host of others. Say what you will about Ward but he makes the secondary better and we saw agianst the Cards B team what happens when he's not back there. I'm in the belief that paying defensive tackles top dollar isnt the greatest idea. Rarely do they impact games like Aaron Donald can. If Kinlaw gets healthy and becomes a pro bowler i think the move worked out. Its just so easy to 2nd guess right now since Kinlaw is injured. I can tell you this, the run game has suffered since Kinlaw is out too.
Yeah people down on Kinlaw cuz he’s injured…ironic thing is the injury this year isn’t related to the issues flagged before the draft. It’s still from the injury he suffered vs Dallas last season.

Kinlaw can certainly still turn things around. He’s shown some really good things before the injury got him out there playing on one leg…and even then he helped our run defense and blocked a kick. Kid can play, just needs to stay on the field and not worry about rehab. Hopefully he follows the Nick Bosa rehab plan and not Jalen Hurd.
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11-19-2021, 07:09 PM
#7427
Originally Posted By Miked1978
I'm iffy on the Buckner trade. They underestimated his value as a leader and it shows. Also as per Genus point, they made that move to resign a host of others. Say what you will about Ward but he makes the secondary better and we saw agianst the Cards B team what happens when he's not back there. I'm in the belief that paying defensive tackles top dollar isnt the greatest idea. Rarely do they impact games like Aaron Donald can. If Kinlaw gets healthy and becomes a pro bowler i think the move worked out. Its just so easy to 2nd guess right now since Kinlaw is injured. I can tell you this, the run game has suffered since Kinlaw is out too.
You could have signed Buckner and resigned everyone.

The total spend for Arik Armstead, Jimmie Ward, Fred Warner, and Trent Williams whom San Francisco acquired via a trade with Washington has been $47 million against the 2020-21 salary cap.
Had the 49ers used Armstead’s contract structure to keep Buckner along with Jimmie Ward, Fred Warner, and Trent Williams the total spend would have been $45.3 million against the salary cap.
This also ignores the fact Buckner explicitly stated he would be willing to take a paycut to remain here. The 49ers just picked Arik + a 1st instead of Deforest.

https://49ers.pressdemocrat.com/the-...kner-and-lost/
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11-20-2021, 05:20 AM
#7428
Originally Posted By dyee4613
I have a hypothetical for you. It is 2002. You are the Houston Texans. You trade the first overall pick to New England for the 199th pick. You use that pick to select Tom Brady. Does that make the trade better? No. The two are unrelated. It's that simple.

This is why you people are so frustrating. The argument should be Lance has qualities that justify taking a gamble on him that other QBs do not. You have not made a single argument as to why we explicitly needed to trade up for Lance. That is why the trade is awful. For the 100th time, it has nothing to do with Lance and everything to do with the lack of logic behind the move.


That is a stupid interpretation. The odds of Kittle being a starter were about 15 to 1. He became top 2 at his position. There was a 7 to 1 percent chance Warner would be a starter. That is amazing luck. From 2016 to 2018, we picked a top 3 player in at a position. That is very rare. In 2019, we picked Bosa who is arguably our best defensive player and Deebo is who is arguably our best offensive player.


I have not bashed Lance once. I said moving up to pick him was awful.


lol ok


Do you think trading the 1st overall pick for the 199th overall pick is a move we cannot evaluate until Tom Brady retires?
Your analogies are trash because you can’t acknowledge that it’s not about optics at the time of the draft, it’s about the result.

You’re the one who brought up Brady. Brady is the result. If Lance is like Brady then absolutely it’s the right move and a brilliant one.

Then you switch to if the team picking #1 trades for 199. That’s idiotic. But yes if the Texans took Brady #1 overall and he had the career he’s had nobody would care in hindsight and it would be seen as a brilliant move that went against all predictions at the time.

This also is a bad example because Brady went so late, so Houston or many other teams could’ve gotten him before the Pats selected him.

Lance wasn’t getting to our pick. You keep disregarding all the stories about how teams in the top 10 loved him but it was all out there. This is QB we’re talking about. That position trumps all in the NFL now. Shanahan decided they wanted a guy who wasn’t physically limited and could open up the offense. They went up to get him.

You can bitch about the move all you want but the result will dictate whether it was a bad move or not.

It’s not 1 for 199. It was #3 overall in a QB heavy draft for the 12th pick plus unknown picks next year and in 2023.

Those picks could be anything but we’ve seen this team whiff on several first round picks. If they felt that strongly about Lance then it’s a move that makes sense…the only analysis will be when Lance gets a chance to show what he can or cannot do.

Imagine thinking there is a lack of logic for a team with a QB who can’t stay healthy and has scheme limitations and moving up for a kid who was running a pro style offense like a vet at 19 years old and someone who has all the physical tools and intangibles to be a great NFL QB when several teams picking ahead of us or slightly behind us who can easily trade up ahead of us to take that guy.

Yeah no logic at all to make that move…
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11-20-2021, 06:07 AM
#7429
Originally Posted By dyee4613
You could have signed Buckner and resigned everyone.




This also ignores the fact Buckner explicitly stated he would be willing to take a paycut to remain here. The 49ers just picked Arik + a 1st instead of Deforest.

https://49ers.pressdemocrat.com/the-...kner-and-lost/
The team saw otherwise…you know what gives some teams the cap flexibility to sign all these big name guys? A QB they believe in so they can move money around. 49ers didn’t have that with Garoppolo which is another reason they made the move for Lance.

Site your sources on the quote. I’m sure I know who it was…and they’re full of **** and overlooking key things like the structure of the contracts.

And just cuz Buckner said he’d take less to stay AFTER he took more to leave it means little. Everyone loved Buckner. Clearly the team felt they were far apart in the deal.

And once again it wasn’t Buckner or Armstead + pick.

It was Buckner or Armstead, Ward, Verrett, Bourne, Brunskill and a bunch of other guys that were key depth last year, plus the pick.
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11-20-2021, 12:13 PM
#7430
Originally Posted By iamgenus
The team saw otherwise…you know what gives some teams the cap flexibility to sign all these big name guys? A QB they believe in so they can move money around. 49ers didn’t have that with Garoppolo which is another reason they made the move for Lance.

Site your sources on the quote. I’m sure I know who it was…and they’re full of **** and overlooking key things like the structure of the contracts.

And just cuz Buckner said he’d take less to stay AFTER he took more to leave it means little. Everyone loved Buckner. Clearly the team felt they were far apart in the deal.

And once again it wasn’t Buckner or Armstead + pick.

It was Buckner or Armstead, Ward, Verrett, Bourne, Brunskill and a bunch of other guys that were key depth last year, plus the pick.
The link is in your quote. The entire article is about the structure of Buckner's contract and it said he didn't have to take less.
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11-20-2021, 04:44 PM
#7431
Originally Posted By dyee4613
The link is in your quote. The entire article is about the structure of Buckner's contract and it said he didn't have to take less.
Cool thanks…exactly who I thought those comments came from. Jack Hammer…aka one of Cohn’s cronies. Dude has been called out on his “could’ve signed them all” take a bunch of times since he’s concentrating on how much the guys get paid vs their cap hit which is the biggest issue.

I personally don’t care if Armstead gets the equivalent of 25 million a season if his cap hit to the team is only 6 million vs 23 million.

It’s not my money so I don’t give a damn about how much they actually make. The cap hit however matters since contracts have to be structured where all players are below that.
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11-22-2021, 05:23 AM
#7432
It's pretty frustrating seeing this team play the way it has the last two weeks and wonder where the hell this was the first 8 games.

I'm still not sold we can keep this going since 8 games vs 2 with one of them being vs the Jags and the other with a Rams team who just lost one of their big weapons on offense and trying to break in a brand new one which led to miscommunication issues.

I certainly hope we found our identity for this season and can finally start playing some good football on both sides of the ball.


Vikings game is going to be huge. Nearly a playoff game for us, absolutely must have game for both teams so it's going to be a battle. I worry about their offense. It's probably one of the most balanced offenses out there these days and Cousins is playing great and Justin Jefferson is just getting better and better.

Gonna have to keep it going with these grinder drives on offense but need TDs vs the Vikings because that team knows how to get points quickly. Need to get to 6-5 and hope Seattle doesn't find a way to figure out their sh*t by the time they play us(like they always seem to do)
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11-22-2021, 09:30 AM
#7433
Originally Posted By iamgenus
It's pretty frustrating seeing this team play the way it has the last two weeks and wonder where the hell this was the first 8 games.

I'm still not sold we can keep this going since 8 games vs 2 with one of them being vs the Jags and the other with a Rams team who just lost one of their big weapons on offense and trying to break in a brand new one which led to miscommunication issues.

I certainly hope we found our identity for this season and can finally start playing some good football on both sides of the ball.


Vikings game is going to be huge. Nearly a playoff game for us, absolutely must have game for both teams so it's going to be a battle. I worry about their offense. It's probably one of the most balanced offenses out there these days and Cousins is playing great and Justin Jefferson is just getting better and better.

Gonna have to keep it going with these grinder drives on offense but need TDs vs the Vikings because that team knows how to get points quickly. Need to get to 6-5 and hope Seattle doesn't find a way to figure out their sh*t by the time they play us(like they always seem to do)
Well to be fair we were in all but 1 of the losses (2nd Cards game) and if we got a few breaks we would have one those 4 games. Now that we are getting some breaks we are now winning. Our previous losses were due to pass interference calls, an untimely fumble, bad coverage etc. They've clean those issues up and the football gods have been gracious with us. They could easily be 9-1 right now.

I dont think this is a must win but its pretty close. a lot can happen in 7 games. I worry about the Vikings offense too. You are right, the 49ers need a couple of those monster clock consuming drives.
LOL @ people who follow politics
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11-22-2021, 11:26 AM
#7434
Originally Posted By Miked1978
Well to be fair we were in all but 1 of the losses (2nd Cards game) and if we got a few breaks we would have one those 4 games. Now that we are getting some breaks we are now winning. Our previous losses were due to pass interference calls, an untimely fumble, bad coverage etc. They've clean those issues up and the football gods have been gracious with us. They could easily be 9-1 right now.

I dont think this is a must win but its pretty close. a lot can happen in 7 games. I worry about the Vikings offense too. You are right, the 49ers need a couple of those monster clock consuming drives.
I know we were in most of those games but we also didn't seem to play up to our talent. I remember lots of people picking us to beat GB because we were the more physical team. We got our ass whooped in that game and completely outcoached.

Still should've won the game in the end but fact is if we played like we have the last two games it wouldn't have been close.

Same thing in the other losses. Just didn't execute right, many mental errors and mistakes and turnovers that could've been easily avoided.

Like I said…hopefully we found our identity and Kyle trusts the players to execute and they do their part. Only issues I had with Kyle in this game are the pass to Trent Williams(i'd love for him to catch one but let's not have the dude leaping for passes…I guess that's more on Garoppolo) and not having Bosa on the field at all for that Jags TD drive when they were passing…only to bring him out on the field for the 1st and goal down at the 1 yard line. Gotta be smart with your key players, especially in a blow out.

Gotta keep it going.
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11-22-2021, 08:38 PM
#7435
Originally Posted By iamgenus
Cool thanks…exactly who I thought those comments came from. Jack Hammer…aka one of Cohn’s cronies. Dude has been called out on his “could’ve signed them all” take a bunch of times since he’s concentrating on how much the guys get paid vs their cap hit which is the biggest issue.

I personally don’t care if Armstead gets the equivalent of 25 million a season if his cap hit to the team is only 6 million vs 23 million.

It’s not my money so I don’t give a damn about how much they actually make. The cap hit however matters since contracts have to be structured where all players are below that.
Had the 49ers offered Buckner the same extension as he eventually received from Indianapolis while using the structure they eventually gave Armstead to manipulate the salary cap the 49ers would have been able to keep a proven team leader and All-Pro, along with making all of the moves they made to bring back their core.
see the bold. Buckner's cap hit was 23m because the Colts had a lot of cap space in 2020. It has nothing to do with how much we had to pay him. I'm not that into the cap so this could be a little wrong but in 2020, Buckner was going to make 12m w/ his rookie option. You give him a contract extension w/ 30m signing bonus. This is prorated over 5 years and instantly Buckner is only a 6m cap hit.
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11-23-2021, 05:29 AM
#7436
Originally Posted By dyee4613
see the bold. Buckner's cap hit was 23m because the Colts had a lot of cap space in 2020. It has nothing to do with how much we had to pay him. I'm not that into the cap so this could be a little wrong but in 2020, Buckner was going to make 12m w/ his rookie option. You give him a contract extension w/ 30m signing bonus. This is prorated over 5 years and instantly Buckner is only a 6m cap hit.
Just cuz it says that doesn't mean it's true. Watch this…

Had the 49ers stayed at their original pick Trey Lance would've been there for them to draft without giving up draft picks
See it says it so it must be true!

You really think the 49ers didn't try to offer a similar deal to Buckner? You think they just looked at one of their best players, a guy who was great for the locker room and one of the few who never missed games and said…you know what let's just trade him for an unknown draft pick. Buckner had 40 million guaranteed at signing. Armstead got 27 at signing.

Both contracts have opt outs here's the big difference. 49ers can opt out of Armstead's deal only paying him 38.5 million. Buckner is guaranteed 56 million. All that while playing a position that gets less money. How many RGs make more money than RTs? Now obviously Armstead isn't Nick Bosa or Dee Ford where he plays edge exclusively but many people like to overlook the fact that Armstead is still primarily a DE. He's getting more DT time this year because we've been hit hard inside with injuries.

There is a major assumption happening that Buckner would've taken the same type of structured deal. It didn't happen and Buckner saying he would've taken less to stay doesn't mean sh*t when he actually didn't.
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11-23-2021, 06:48 PM
#7437
Originally Posted By iamgenus
Just cuz it says that doesn't mean it's true. Watch this…



See it says it so it must be true!
Okay, explain why the 49ers couldn't just restructure Buckner's deal to have a 6m cap hit.


You really think the 49ers didn't try to offer a similar deal to Buckner? You think they just looked at one of their best players, a guy who was great for the locker room and one of the few who never missed games and said…you know what let's just trade him for an unknown draft pick. Buckner had 40 million guaranteed at signing. Armstead got 27 at signing.
Originally Posted By BUCKNER
Shortly after this answer, my editor Grant Cohn asked Buckner if the 49ers ever offered him anything near a four-year, $84 million extension.

Buckner's answer: "No"
Both contracts have opt outs here's the big difference. 49ers can opt out of Armstead's deal only paying him 38.5 million. Buckner is guaranteed 56 million. All that while playing a position that gets less money. How many RGs make more money than RTs? Now obviously Armstead isn't Nick Bosa or Dee Ford where he plays edge exclusively but many people like to overlook the fact that Armstead is still primarily a DE. He's getting more DT time this year because we've been hit hard inside with injuries.
I don't think you understand that the Colts had a TON of cap room so they front-loaded his contract. This is similar to the 49ers deal with Jimmy G. They paid him a ton early while the team sucks so he becomes more of a bargain later. It is the same concept here. Shockingly, Buckner's contract will look a lot better than Armstead's after 2 years because the front-loaded money is gone.

In 2022, the dead cap for Buckner is 5m. Armstead's dead cap is 16.5. In 2023, the dead cap for Buckner is 0. Armstead's is 11.5. The bulk of Buckner's salary has already been paid because the Colts had a bunch of cap space and could front-load his contract. BTW - Buckner is also significantly cheaper salary-wise from 2022 onward.

There is a major assumption happening that Buckner would've taken the same type of structured deal. It didn't happen and Buckner saying he would've taken less to stay doesn't mean sh*t when he actually didn't.
The 49ers didn't give him the option because they decided Armstead + Kinlaw was a better bet. So far, they are wrong
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11-27-2021, 11:14 AM
#7438
Originally Posted By dyee4613
Okay, explain why the 49ers couldn't just restructure Buckner's deal to have a 6m cap hit.

Because it didn’t happen and I’m not naive enough to believe that Buckner would’ve taken that just because after the fact he claims he would’ve taken less. People just looking to bitch in hindsight.




Originally Posted By dyee4613

I don't think you understand that the Colts had a TON of cap room so they front-loaded his contract. This is similar to the 49ers deal with Jimmy G. They paid him a ton early while the team sucks so he becomes more of a bargain later. It is the same concept here. Shockingly, Buckner's contract will look a lot better than Armstead's after 2 years because the front-loaded money is gone.

In 2022, the dead cap for Buckner is 5m. Armstead's dead cap is 16.5. In 2023, the dead cap for Buckner is 0. Armstead's is 11.5. The bulk of Buckner's salary has already been paid because the Colts had a bunch of cap space and could front-load his contract. BTW - Buckner is also significantly cheaper salary-wise from 2022 onward.
I understand how the cap works and why teams structure their deals as they do. What you fail to understand is you’re not comparing apples to apples.

Buckner was a DT. He played on the edge in a handful of snaps. Armstead played a good amount of time at edge. You’re comparing a contract for a DT(only contract higher than Buckner at the time was Aaron Donald) to Armstead(where numerous DEs had a lot more money than him)

49ers couldn’t give him the deal the Colts did for the reasons you listed. They didn’t have the cap room at the time and they couldn’t push that much money down the road for a guy who didn’t have the position flexibility of Buckner because they had young talent needing to get paid.

Dead cap is an issue but not the end of the world. You just saw several teams eat WAY higher dead cap to move on from someone. And despite what you think Armstead isn’t getting drastically out performed by Buckner. Next year will be the first season where Armstead really gets big money but he’s still playing DE/DT. They can easily rework that deal then and AA hasn’t shown anything where his production absolutely isn’t warranted to stay on the team.

Originally Posted By dyee4613

The 49ers didn't give him the option because they decided Armstead + Kinlaw was a better bet. So far, they are wrong
It wasn’t just Armstead+Kinlaw vs Buckner…not sure how many times it has to be said. It was a bunch of people including Jimmie Ward who is playing great for us.

But even without all those other guys involved have they been wrong? How do you figure?

This defense with Armstead is better than the Colts D is with Buckner. Buckner has slightly better stats but analytics like PFF have Armstead graded out better.

The pick we got for Buckner also allowed us to move down and get the ammo to trade up for Aiyuk. Kinlaw is an unknown so far but if his knee heals he could very well be a dominant force for us inside for a while.

Buckner was a great dude and player for us but he was never the glue that kept the defense dominant. That’s why when he was the main guy on the D we were never a great defense. Nothing against him but he just wasn’t the same impact as Donald. His pass rush numbers don’t change the overall play of the defense with him being the focal point.

Show me a defense which built around their DT not named Aaron Donald where it was a move that really put everything together? It’s simply not a position where you want to spend big money on, especially if you have talent to build around elsewhere and have depth at the DT spot.
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11-27-2021, 03:26 PM
#7439
Originally Posted By iamgenus
Because it didn’t happen and I’m not naive enough to believe that Buckner would’ve taken that just because after the fact he claims he would’ve taken less. People just looking to bitch in hindsight.
Lie #1: You said the 49ers could not offer Buckner the same contract the Colts did but formatted like Armstead's contract. You said multiple people exposed it. Why could the 49ers not restructured Buckner's contract in the 5th year and offered him a prorated bonus? The 49ers had 4m in extra cap space which means they could have gone up to 10m which is only 2m in a prorated bonus which is less than Armstead's. This is irrelevant but why would Buckner not accept? He said he'd take less to stay with the 49ers and he would have got more upfront money than he would have with the Colts via signing bonus.


I understand how the cap works and why teams structure their deals as they do. What you fail to understand is you’re not comparing apples to apples.
Lie #2: This is irrelevant. You are talking about whether or not Buckner could have stayed a 49er. The fact the 49ers use 10m in cap space on a DT vs QB vs RB is irrelevant. It is also funny that you're pretending DT production isn't worth WAAY more than DE production. It is harder and way more disruptive to produce as a DT rather than a DE.

49ers couldn’t give him the deal the Colts did for the reasons you listed. They didn’t have the cap room at the time and they couldn’t push that much money down the road for a guy who didn’t have the position flexibility of Buckner because they had young talent needing to get paid.
Lie #3 - The 49ers could have given him the same deal. It would have been better as they would have given him more upfront money after the extension.
Lie #4 - The 49ers had the cap space. When you factor in Armstead's cap hit + the leftover cap space, the 49ers had around 10m in cap space. They had to pay him 12m that year.
Lie #5 - The 49ers could push the money down the road….because they literally did for Armstead.

Dead cap is an issue but not the end of the world. You just saw several teams eat WAY higher dead cap to move on from someone. And despite what you think Armstead isn’t getting drastically out performed by Buckner. Next year will be the first season where Armstead really gets big money but he’s still playing DE/DT. They can easily rework that deal then and AA hasn’t shown anything where his production absolutely isn’t warranted to stay on the team.
Lie #6 - You might be able to restructure his contract in the future. However, the 49ers remain competitive what could they offer Armstead? He is going to make a TON of money and he has no incentive to take a pay cut as the 49ers will have to eat a lot of dead cap which is something they absolutely can't afford to do right now.
Lie #7 - Armstead has never made a probowl. Buckner was 1st team all pro last year. Buckner is ahead of him by sacks, tackles, TFL, and played less games in 2020. Armstead's 2019 numbers with Buckner look like a the outlier based on 2020 and 2021. If you have faith in PFF's god awful rankings, I'm willing to make a thread asking the forum who is a better player. If Armstead is within 10% of Buckner, I'll take a month long ban. If he isn't, you have to do a week. You won't do it because Buckner is widely recognized as the better player.

It wasn’t just Armstead+Kinlaw vs Buckner…not sure how many times it has to be said. It was a bunch of people including Jimmie Ward who is playing great for us.

But even without all those other guys involved have they been wrong? How do you figure?
Lie #8 - A 6m Buckner cap hit wouldn't have impacted Jimmy Ward's contract.

The pick we got for Buckner also allowed us to move down and get the ammo to trade up for Aiyuk. Kinlaw is an unknown so far but if his knee heals he could very well be a dominant force for us inside for a while.Buckner was a great dude and player for us but he was never the glue that kept the defense dominant. That’s why when he was the main guy on the D we were never a great defense. Nothing against him but he just wasn’t the same impact as Donald. His pass rush numbers don’t change the overall play of the defense with him being the focal point.

Show me a defense which built around their DT not named Aaron Donald where it was a move that really put everything together? It’s simply not a position where you want to spend big money on, especially if you have talent to build around elsewhere and have depth at the DT spot.
Buckner 2019 49ers - 2nd in DVOA
Justin Smith 2011 49ers - 3rd in DVOA
Ngata w/ the Ravens - 10/11.
Wilfork w/ the Pats - 2012.
Vikes w/ Pat & Kevin Williams
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11-28-2021, 11:26 PM
#7440
Pretty huge win this week. Shanahan is really showing how good of a coach he is. Dude has no QB he can trust, a third string RB, no secondary, an overrated dline, an inconsistent kicker, and the team is still in the playoff hunt. I'm impressed. I mean did Jimmy even throw the ball beyond 15 yards once? lmao.

Jimmy G is one frustrating mfer to watch, and if they lose Deebo the season is over. Shanahan and Deebo are literally dominating teams by themselves, it's crazy to watch - match made in heaven.
  1. ghostfacedup
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  1. ghostfacedup
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