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Forum » Hey Muslims, how you feel about your Prophet being debunked by the Dead Sea scrolls?
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Thread: Hey Muslims, how you feel about your Prophet being debunked by the Dead Sea scrolls?

post 1691723343 10-15-2023, 02:17 PM
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Originally Posted By CalmWind⏩
t is preserved. If Catholics wanted to add some more famous apocryphal books in the 1500s, it doesn't change the rest were still preserved. Fail.

The Gospel of Christ was untouched.

The books themselves were accurately preserved.

So.... islam debunked.
So discuss that between yourselves. Figure out which one.

You probably think Bart Ehrman is a liar but his book "The Orthodox Corruption of Scripture" is highly regarded and a great read that mainstream scholarship agrees with and the issues with early Christological controversies. He himself makes the claim that "over 90% of manuscripts of the NT date 9th or 10th century onwards".
2:136
Say, ˹O believers,˺ We believe in Allah and what has been revealed to us; and what was revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and his descendants; what was given to Moses, Jesus, and other prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them. And to Allah we all submit.
post 1691723523 10-15-2023, 02:19 PM
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Originally Posted By miscerForLulz⏩
So discuss that between yourselves. Figure out which one.

You probably think Bart Ehrman is a liar but his book "The Orthodox Corruption of Scripture" is highly regarded and a great read that mainstream scholarship agrees with and the issues with early Christological controversies. He himself makes the claim that "over 90% of manuscripts of the NT date 9th or 10th century onwards".
You are still dodging, which one do you think your false prophet was declaring was true?

Only the Torah? Well than that mean’s Mohammed is a liar & your Quran is false.


Either way, you lose…
post 1691723533 10-15-2023, 02:19 PM
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Originally Posted By Paul
If the Torah is true (as the Quran states) then the Quran is false. Only one can be right.
I think the Koran says it was corrupted in the age following Moses or something to that effect and the same with the Gospels in the age after Jesus. The idea being that there is one scripture that is given and has been corrupted. I also believe there are claims that there are many other prophets outside the middle eastern and semitic fold.
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post 1691723883 10-15-2023, 02:25 PM
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Originally Posted By MasterMorality⏩
I think the Koran says it was corrupted in the age following Moses or something to that effect and the same with the Gospels in the age after Jesus. The idea being that there is one scripture that is given and has been corrupted. I also believe there are claims that there are many other prophets outside the middle eastern and semitic fold.
“It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong)” (Surah 3:3).
post 1691723913 10-15-2023, 02:25 PM
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Originally Posted By MasterMorality⏩
Question for the guys debating the religious scriptures.

Don't Muslims or the koran refer to the Gospels and not the Bible (as later collected together with other texts)? Even if the whole thing That would be the Catholic or Orthodox version Bibles if referring to the Bible and not the Protestant one too right? So when the koran says the torah is corrupted and the gospels are corrupted it is referring to two different texts and not one thing that we now call the Bible. I bring this up because I think Protestants make the torah and gospels the same thing in this argument against the Koran.
The issue is we don't believe Allah legislated the Gospel writers to write the NT. Allah gave the revelations to the Prophets themselves...such as David and the Zabur, Moses and the Taurat and Jesus and the Injeel (Peace Be Upon Them All).

For example, the story of David and Uriah...we completely reject this. We don't believe these stories of the Prophets. David (PBUH) was a righteous man. We don't look at the Bible whatsoever for our faith. I like theology and just want to see what Christians believe.
Originally Posted By Paul
You are still dodging, which one do you think your false prophet was declaring was true?

Only the Torah? Well than that mean’s Mohammed is a liar & your Quran is false.


Either way, you lose…
Great, thanks
2:136
Say, ˹O believers,˺ We believe in Allah and what has been revealed to us; and what was revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and his descendants; what was given to Moses, Jesus, and other prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them. And to Allah we all submit.
post 1691724033 10-15-2023, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted By miscerForLulz⏩
The issue is we don't believe Allah legislated the Gospel writers to write the NT. Allah gave the revelations to the Prophets themselves...such as David and the Zabur, Moses and the Taurat and Jesus and the Injeel (Peace Be Upon Them All).

For example, the story of David and Uriah...we completely reject this. We don't believe these stories of the Prophets. David (PBUH) was a righteous man. We don't look at the Bible whatsoever for our faith. I like theology and just want to see what Christians believe.



Great, thanks
Your Quran says Jesus & the Torah are the truth..
post 1691724163 10-15-2023, 02:30 PM
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Originally Posted By Paul
Your Quran says Jesus & the Torah are the truth..
nice
thanks for telling me...i know the verse memorized in Arabic btw...read the next verse
2:136
Say, ˹O believers,˺ We believe in Allah and what has been revealed to us; and what was revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and his descendants; what was given to Moses, Jesus, and other prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them. And to Allah we all submit.
post 1691724533 10-15-2023, 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted By miscerForLulz⏩
nice
thanks for telling me...i know the verse memorized in Arabic btw...read the next verse
Sure you can post it, I read it…But Allah confirmed the Gospel.
post 1691724933 10-15-2023, 02:43 PM
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Surah 7:157

'Those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered prophet, whom they find written in what they have of the Torah and the Gospel, who enjoins upon them what is right and forbids them what is wrong and makes lawful for them the good things and prohibits for them the evil and relieves them of their burden and the shackles which were upon them. So they who have believed in him, honored him, supported him and followed the light which was sent down with him – it is those who will be the successful."



Mohammad affirms the truth of the Gospels and the Torah while contradicting both. We have Bibles (not manuscripts, but ACTUAL Bibles that ARE 2 centuries OLDER than Mohammad and KNOW exactly what the GOSPELS stated.


so for those arguing that Mohammad was stating the gospels were "corrupted"...

post 1691725013 10-15-2023, 02:46 PM
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Originally Posted By miscerForLulz⏩
The issue is we don't believe Allah legislated the Gospel writers to write the NT. Allah gave the revelations to the Prophets themselves...such as David and the Zabur, Moses and the Taurat and Jesus and the Injeel (Peace Be Upon Them All).

For example, the story of David and Uriah...we completely reject this. We don't believe these stories of the Prophets. David (PBUH) was a righteous man. We don't look at the Bible whatsoever for our faith. I like theology and just want to see what Christians believe.



Great, thanks
Okay so if I have it right, the revelations to the prophets were pure and it was the men who wrote them down after the prophets who made errors in copying and transmitting them? Thus they were corrupted and so the need for the revealtion to Muhammed to be memorized orally and written precisely? Is that the Muslim case against the Psalms, Gospels, and Torah?
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post 1691725173 10-15-2023, 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted By Paul
Surah 7:157

'Those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered prophet, whom they find written in what they have of the Torah and the Gospel, who enjoins upon them what is right and forbids them what is wrong and makes lawful for them the good things and prohibits for them the evil and relieves them of their burden and the shackles which were upon them. So they who have believed in him, honored him, supported him and followed the light which was sent down with him – it is those who will be the successful."



Mohammad affirms the truth of the Gospels and the Torah while contradicting both. We have Bibles (not manuscripts, but ACTUAL Bibles that ARE 2 centuries OLDER than Mohammad and KNOW exactly what the GOSPELS stated.


so for those arguing that Mohammad was stating the gospels were "corrupted"...

Questions:

1) How does having two bibles from the 4th century show that the Gospels, Psalms, and Torah were not copied and transmitted incorrectly in the Muslims argument?

2) Are they also not the Greek Orthodox versions of the scripture so different than the Protestant one (possibly the Catholic as well but I did not check)?


Edit- I also see in the sinai codex large portions of the old testament are missing so they are complete. Half of the Orthodox version of the old testament survives.
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post 1691725233 10-15-2023, 02:51 PM
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Originally Posted By MasterMorality⏩
Questions:

How does having two bibles from the 4th century show that the Gospels, Psalms, and Torah were not copied and transmitted incorrectly in the Muslim argument?

Are they also not the Greek Orthodox versions of the scripture so different than the Protestant one?
What Bible do you think Mohammed was referring to when he stated it was the truth & the word of God?

We have Bibles 2 centuries older than Mohammed
post 1691725323 10-15-2023, 02:53 PM
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Originally Posted By Paul
Sure you can post it, I read it…But Allah confirmed the Gospel.
As someone once told me, "read the book" and don't let others do your homework for you. Idk how this solves the contradictions in the Bible though? If you want to assume it confirms whatever you read, you still have errors in it.

3:4

مِنْ قَبْلُ هُدًى لِلنَّاسِ (a guidance BEFORE for mankind)

مِنْ قَبْلُ = this before
هُدًى = guidance
لِلنَّاسِ = for mankind

Then it continues

وَأَنزَلَ ٱلۡفُرۡقَانَۗ (and he sent down the Furqan)

وَ = (and: a conjuction continuing from previous, but it doesn't presume order but it can be implied because we know the Quran was revealed after the Taurat/Injeel...we have two other common conjuctions in the Quran)
أَنزَلَ = he sent down (God)
ٱلۡفُرۡقَانَۗ = (Al-furqan, ie the Quran...Al is just the prefix 'the')

now do the rest, search up what Furqan means (hint: chapter 25 of the Quran is called Furqan and one of the names of the Quran is Furqan) and when you read it, please, don't ever bring this point up again...I will never answer this question again

You are welcome in your 101 lesson of Arabic

beauty of our preservation...we can explain the actual meaning behind in the language...now if you can do the same for the two passages above (22 vs 42 and was he older than his father) or will you tell me to keep reading?
2:136
Say, ˹O believers,˺ We believe in Allah and what has been revealed to us; and what was revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and his descendants; what was given to Moses, Jesus, and other prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them. And to Allah we all submit.
post 1691725523 10-15-2023, 02:56 PM
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Originally Posted By MasterMorality⏩
Okay so if I have it right, the revelations to the prophets were pure and it was the men who wrote them down after the prophets who made errors in copying and transmitting them? Thus they were corrupted and so the need for the revealtion to Muhammed to be memorized orally and written precisely? Is that the Muslim case against the Psalms, Gospels, and Torah?
Yes, more or less. They were pure revelations from Allah at that time. I have no issues with that. Also, this is only the Islamic stance but those books were for those people at that time (you are free to reject this notion though, it's our belief).

I give you just one example...the first five book are given to Moses, correct? Then if you look at the end of Deuteronomy (Deuteronomy 34), who wrote this?

Many other points (and the Jews blasphemed the Prophets of old like Lot, David, Solomon, Noah, etc.). Even Saul as well which I think makes sense because Samuel was supposed to anoint a king for them and chose someone not fit in their eyes (the Quran has a different viewpoint...maybe they wrote things about Saul because of this but that's purely my viewpoint).

2:247
Their prophet [Samuel] told them, “Allah has appointed Saul to be your king.” They protested, “How can he be our king when some of us are more deserving of kingship than he, and he has not been blessed with vast riches?” He replied, “Allah has chosen him over you and blessed him with knowledge and stature. Allah grants kingship to whoever He wills. And Allah is All-Bountiful, All-Knowing.”
2:136
Say, ˹O believers,˺ We believe in Allah and what has been revealed to us; and what was revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and his descendants; what was given to Moses, Jesus, and other prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them. And to Allah we all submit.
post 1691725553 10-15-2023, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted By miscerForLulz⏩
As someone once told me, "read the book" and don't let others do your homework for you. Idk how this solves the contradictions in the Bible though? If you want to assume it confirms whatever you read, you still have errors in it.

3:4

مِنْ قَبْلُ هُدًى لِلنَّاسِ (a guidance BEFORE for mankind)

مِنْ قَبْلُ = this before
هُدًى = guidance
لِلنَّاسِ = for mankind

Then it continues

وَأَنزَلَ ٱلۡفُرۡقَانَۗ (and he sent down the Furqan)

وَ = (and: a conjuction continuing from previous, but it doesn't presume order but it can be implied because we know the Quran was revealed after the Taurat/Injeel...we have two other common conjuctions in the Quran)
أَنزَلَ = he sent down (God)
ٱلۡفُرۡقَانَۗ = (Al-furqan, ie the Quran...Al is just the prefix 'the')

now do the rest, search up what Furqan means (hint: chapter 25 of the Quran is called Furqan and one of the names of the Quran is Furqan) and when you read it, please, don't ever bring this point up again...I will never answer this question again

You are welcome in your 101 lesson of Arabic

beauty of our preservation...we can explain the actual meaning behind in the language...now if you can do the same for the two passages above (22 vs 42 and was he older than his father) or will you tell me to keep reading?
You did not disprove anything lol….let’s try this again..

““It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in TRUTH”

If Jesus is the TRUTH, as your Quran states..than Mohammed is a liar & false prophet

If the Torah is true..as your Quran states..then the Quran is false, & Mohammed is a liar.

So which is it??

Also stop posting from your alt lol
post 1691725663 10-15-2023, 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted By Paul
What Bible do you think Mohammed was referring to when he stated it was the truth & the word of God?

We have Bibles 2 centuries older than Mohammed
I think you are not understanding my question. If he is referring to the Gospels and separate torah and psalms and then it they are rejected because of being corrupted in the 6th century ce how does two incomplete bibles from the fourth century (orthodox versions) equate to Mohammed referring to the Gospels as revealed to Jesus six hundred years before? There is a difference between Gospels as revealed to Jesus versus the collection of texts found in the fourth century which have put together the old testament and new testament (again in the orthodox version) in the Muslimtradition.

Your argument works for a Christian of any denomination but does not work outside that (meaning for a Muslim, Jew, or secular person). Similar to a Muslim argument for their scriptural validity. It is all based on internal logic which assumes truth of its own scripture and history. To use an internal argument against another religion won't work (in my opinion).

I do appreciate that I am learning some things from the two of you debating thank you.
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post 1691725703 10-15-2023, 03:01 PM
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Originally Posted By miscerForLulz⏩
Yes, more or less. They were pure revelations from Allah at that time. I have no issues with that. Also, this is only the Islamic stance but those books were for those people at that time (you are free to reject this notion though, it's our belief).

I give you just one example...the first five book are given to Moses, correct? Then if you look at the end of Deuteronomy (Deuteronomy 34), who wrote this?

Many other points (and the Jews blasphemed the Prophets of old like Lot, David, Solomon, Noah, etc.). Even Saul as well which I think makes sense because Samuel was supposed to anoint a king for them and chose someone not fit in their eyes (the Quran has a different viewpoint...maybe they wrote things about Saul because of this but that's purely my viewpoint).

2:247
Their prophet [Samuel] told them, “Allah has appointed Saul to be your king.” They protested, “How can he be our king when some of us are more deserving of kingship than he, and he has not been blessed with vast riches?” He replied, “Allah has chosen him over you and blessed him with knowledge and stature. Allah grants kingship to whoever He wills. And Allah is All-Bountiful, All-Knowing.”
Thanks. I am learning from the debate between you and PaulKreul. I appreciate it.
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post 1691725833 10-15-2023, 03:03 PM
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Originally Posted By Paul
You did not disprove anything lol….let’s try this again..

““It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in TRUTH”

If Jesus is the TRUTH, as your Quran states..than Mohammed is a liar & false prophet

If the Torah is true..as your Quran states..then the Quran is false, & Mohammed is a liar.

So which is it??

Also stop posting from your alt lol
oh my...

3:60 starts with ٱلْحَقُّ (the truth)...is this mean this is Jesus now? any time the word truth is in the Quran, it means Jesus? noted, thank you for this

MasterMorality isn't my alt lmao ngl that did make me laugh

I think he's a Christian brah
2:136
Say, ˹O believers,˺ We believe in Allah and what has been revealed to us; and what was revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and his descendants; what was given to Moses, Jesus, and other prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them. And to Allah we all submit.
post 1691725883 10-15-2023, 03:04 PM
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Originally Posted By MasterMorality⏩
I think you are not understanding my question. If he is referring to the Gospels and separate torah and psalms and then it they are rejected because of being corrupted in the 6th century ce how does two incomplete bibles from the fourth century (orthodox versions) equate to Mohammed referring to the Gospels as revealed to Jesus six hundred years before? There is a difference between Gospels as revealed to Jesus versus the collection of texts found in the fourth century which have put together the old testament and new testament (again in the orthodox version) in the Muslimtradition.

Your argument works for a Christian of any denomination but does not work outside that (meaning for a Muslim, Jew, or secular person). Similar to a Muslim argument for their scriptural validity. It is all based on internal logic which assumes truth of its own scripture and history. To use an internal argument against another religion won't work (in my opinion).
I understand your argument perfectly, if you or a Muslim is stating that the Gospels were corrupted 2 centuries before Mohammed & therefore untrustworthy, then they have to present evidence for that claim.

If they are claiming only the Torah is true (the Quran claims the Gospel is true as well)..then that STILL makes Mohammad a liar and false prophet..

No matter what stance you take, the Quran is false & Mohammad is a false prophet
post 1691725923 10-15-2023, 03:05 PM
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Originally Posted By miscerForLulz⏩
oh my...

3:60 starts with ٱلْحَقُّ (the truth)...is this mean this is Jesus now? any time the word truth is in the Quran, it means Jesus? noted, thank you for this

MasterMorality isn't my alt lmao ngl that did make me laugh

I think he's a Christian brah
Paul Kreul I am not his alt lol I come from a Bavarian catholic background but I realize my knowledge of this scriptural debate is weak and so I am enjoying reading you guys debate it and looking up stuff.
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post 1691725973 10-15-2023, 03:06 PM
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Originally Posted By miscerForLulz⏩
oh my...

3:60 starts with ٱلْحَقُّ (the truth)...is this mean this is Jesus now? any time the word truth is in the Quran, it means Jesus? noted, thank you for this

MasterMorality isn't my alt lmao ngl that did make me laugh

I think he's a Christian brah
Are you claiming the text does not refer to Jesus??


““It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth”

Are you SURE you want to make that claim?
post 1691726053 10-15-2023, 03:08 PM
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Never understood why someone who claims to be secure in their own beliefs would trouble themselves with the faith of others let alone go through the trouble of trying to debunk them...does faith require everyone to take refuge in the false security of the consensus? I understand the whole concept of trying to save others by showing them what you perceive is the correct path towards "god" but I would venture to guess there are more civil ways to help them see the true path.
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post 1691726153 10-15-2023, 03:10 PM
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Originally Posted By Paul
Are you claiming the text does not refer to Jesus??


““It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth”

Are you SURE you want to make that claim?
Yeah 100%

Who is talking to who here?

Sahih International
He has sent down upon you, [O Muhammad], the Book in truth, confirming what was before it. And He revealed the Torah and the Gospel.

Muhsin Khan
It is He Who has sent down the Book (the Quran) to you (Muhammad SAW) with truth, confirming what came before it. And he sent down the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel).

Pickthall
He hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture with truth, confirming that which was (revealed) before it, even as He revealed the Torah and the Gospel.

Yusuf Ali
It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong).

Shakir
He has revealed to you the Book with truth, verifying that which is before it, and He revealed the Tavrat and the Injeel aforetime, a guidance for the people, and He sent the Furqan.

Dr. Ghali
He has been sending down upon you the Book with the Truth, sincerely (verifying) what was before it (Literally: between its two hands), and He sent down the Tawrah (The Book revealed to Musa "Moses") and the Injil. (The Book revealed to Isa).
2:136
Say, ˹O believers,˺ We believe in Allah and what has been revealed to us; and what was revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and his descendants; what was given to Moses, Jesus, and other prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them. And to Allah we all submit.
post 1691726203 10-15-2023, 03:12 PM
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#84
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Originally Posted By MasterMorality⏩
Thanks. I am learning from the debate between you and PaulKreul. I appreciate it.
All good brah (oops I mean, me)

I'm guessing you've (meme) read on Islam? Dunno what your stance on it as an outsider.
2:136
Say, ˹O believers,˺ We believe in Allah and what has been revealed to us; and what was revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and his descendants; what was given to Moses, Jesus, and other prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them. And to Allah we all submit.
post 1691726253 10-15-2023, 03:13 PM
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#85
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Originally Posted By MasterMorality⏩
I come from a Bavarian catholic background
wood be funny if I said this just to stur hostility between you two lmao

brb making an alt standby (not srs mods)
2:136
Say, ˹O believers,˺ We believe in Allah and what has been revealed to us; and what was revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and his descendants; what was given to Moses, Jesus, and other prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them. And to Allah we all submit.
post 1691726293 10-15-2023, 03:14 PM
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#86
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Originally Posted By Paul
I understand your argument perfectly, if you or a Muslim is stating that the Gospels were corrupted 2 centuries before Mohammed & therefore untrustworthy, then they have to present evidence for that claim.

If they are claiming only the Torah is true (the Quran claims the Gospel is true as well)..then that STILL makes Mohammad a liar and false prophet..

No matter what stance you take, the Quran is false & Mohammad is a false prophet
Okay got it so you understand what I am asking. Here is what I find about the Koran and corruption of previous revelations (Miscerforlulz please verify or chime in):


“But the wrongdoers changed the saying with other than what they were told. So We sent down on those who were wrongdoers a plague from the sky because of the transgressions they used to commit” (Q 2:59)

“There is indeed a group of them who twist their tongues to mimic the Book, that you may suppose that it is from the Book, though it is not from the Book, and they say, ‘It is from Allah,’ though it is not from Allah, and they attribute lies to Allah, and they know [it]” (Q 3:78).

Both these are scriptural arguments for a Muslim that the previous revelations were corrupted and the two incomplete bibles from the fourth century would not prove anything otherwise to a Muslim (other than two collections of texts centered around a corrupted Torah and psalms for the OT as well as a corrupted Gospels for the NT). I think both 4th century bibles are incomplete as well. The thing I keep returning to is that for a Muslim those Christian arguments won't work aand the same the other way around. Internal logic of a religion and dogma will not apply outside that religion or dogma. It is a matter of faith (and culture/society and upbringing or in my opinion God's Will ultimately).
Pro-Palestine, Pro-China, Pro-Iran, Pro-Russia, Pro-Venezuela
post 1691726343 10-15-2023, 03:16 PM
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#87
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Originally Posted By miscerForLulz⏩
All good brah (oops I mean, me)

I'm guessing you've (meme) read on Islam? Dunno what your stance on it as an outsider.
I am not big on any Abrahamic religion the sense of ritual or dogma however I am very much a believer in God. I love philosophy of religion and history of religion and so I am very interested in this debate.

I am a very big supporter of "political Islam" though as I see that as a powerful revolutionary force for good.
Pro-Palestine, Pro-China, Pro-Iran, Pro-Russia, Pro-Venezuela
post 1691726363 10-15-2023, 03:17 PM
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#88
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Originally Posted By miscerForLulz⏩
Yeah 100%

Who is talking to who here?

Sahih International
He has sent down upon you, [O Muhammad], the Book in truth, confirming what was before it. And He revealed the Torah and the Gospel.

Muhsin Khan
It is He Who has sent down the Book (the Quran) to you (Muhammad SAW) with truth, confirming what came before it. And he sent down the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel).

Pickthall
He hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture with truth, confirming that which was (revealed) before it, even as He revealed the Torah and the Gospel.

Yusuf Ali
It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong).

Shakir
He has revealed to you the Book with truth, verifying that which is before it, and He revealed the Tavrat and the Injeel aforetime, a guidance for the people, and He sent the Furqan.

Dr. Ghali
He has been sending down upon you the Book with the Truth, sincerely (verifying) what was before it (Literally: between its two hands), and He sent down the Tawrah (The Book revealed to Musa "Moses") and the Injil. (The Book revealed to Isa).
Great..THANK YOU SO MUCH!!

So..we are back to what your false prophet claims as truth..the Gospels & the Torah are truth..as you just stated (100%)

You see your problem?

If the Gospels & Torah are true..that makes Mohammad liar & the Quran false.

If you are claiming they were corrupted, 2 centuries before Mohammed, then you have to prove that..
post 1691726553 10-15-2023, 03:22 PM
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#89
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Originally Posted By Paul
Great..THANK YOU SO MUCH!!

So..we are back to what your false prophet claims as truth..the Gospels & the Torah are truth..as you just stated (100%)

You see your problem?

If the Gospels & Torah are true..that makes Mohammad liar & the Quran false.

If you are claiming they were corrupted, 2 centuries before Mohammed, then you have to prove that..
nice
2:136
Say, ˹O believers,˺ We believe in Allah and what has been revealed to us; and what was revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and his descendants; what was given to Moses, Jesus, and other prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them. And to Allah we all submit.
post 1691726983 10-15-2023, 03:32 PM
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#90
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Originally Posted By MasterMorality⏩
I am not big on any Abrahamic religion the sense of ritual or dogma however I am very much a believer in God. I love philosophy of religion and history of religion and so I am very interested in this debate.

I am a very big supporter of "political Islam" though as I see that as a powerful revolutionary force for good.
So you believe in some higher power? How did you come to conclusions there was a God for yourself?

I tend not to dabble in philosophy tbh personally.

Yeah, I think the western world is dying of 5 things that Islam came to preserve.
Source from here:https://newmuslimguide.com/en/preliminaries/218

Preservation of Religion - otherwise, the religion of hedonism prevails.
Spoiler!

This is the main reason why Allah ﷻ created people and sent messengers to convey it to them and to preserve it, as the Qur’an states, “We sent a messenger among every people saying: ‘Worship Allah and keep clear of all false gods.’” (Soorat An-Nahl, 16:36) Indeed, Islam insists on preserving religion and protecting it against anything which is bound to mar its purity, such as worshipping false gods besides Allah or instead of Him (shirk), engaging in superstitions and committing forbidden acts.


Preservation of Life - inb4 I'm here to kill you, not at all.
Spoiler!

Allah ﷻ commands us to preserve human life even if this involves the commission of a sin, especially if one is driven by necessity to do so, as the Qur’an states, “But whoever is forced [by necessity], neither desiring [it] nor transgressing [its limit], there is no sin upon him. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.” (Soorat Al-Baqarah, 2:173)

He has forbidden suicide or any act against human life in general: “Do not cast yourselves into destruction.” (Soorat Al-Baqarah, 2:195)

He has also legislated punishments which serve to deter people from unjustly harming others, no matter what their religion may be: “O you who believe, fair retribution is prescribed for you in cases of murder.” (Soorat Al-Baqarah, 2:178)


Preservation of The Mind - hence why intoxications are forbidden. It is insane that alcohol is fine but drugs are illegal? What is the yardstick? Governments spend so much money on helping people with alcohol abuse (for example, the NHS reported back in 2003 that it spent up to £1.7b). Only the people profiting from this benefits. Destroys the family.
Spoiler!

Islam prohibits anything that is bound to have a negative effect on the mind and impair discernment. Indeed, the intellect is one of the greatest blessings Allah has bestowed upon us; it is the very faculty by which Allah has honoured man and favoured him over other creatures; it is also the reason that makes him subject to accountability in this life and in the hereafter.

It is for this reason that Allah ﷻ has forbidden all types of intoxicants and drugs, which He describes as an abomination of Satan’s handiwork: “O you who believe, intoxicants, gambling, stone altars and divining arrows are abominations devised by Satan. Avoid them so that you may be successful.” (Soorat Al-Maa’idah, 5:90)


Preservation of Progeny - and now kids growing up without their dads, it affects society. A weak, fatherless society is easy to control. Destroys the family.
Spoiler!

Islam stresses the importance of preserving progeny and starting a family in which the new generation acquire good manners and learn lofty principles. This is clear in a number of rulings which include the following:

It encourages marriage and prompts its adherents to make it easy for the unmarried people with the least expenses: “Marry off those among you who are unmarried.” (Soorat An-Noor, 24:32)
It prohibits all sinful, illicit relationships and has blocks all the ways leading to them: “Do not go near to fornication. It is an indecent act and an evil way.” (Soorat Al-Israa’, 17:32)
It forbids slandering or defaming people’s lineage and considers this act a major sin for which the perpetrator is subject to a specified punishment in this life in addition to severe chastisement in the hereafter.
It commands its adherents to preserve people’s honour and considers a person who is killed defending his honour or that of his family, a martyr.


Preservation of Property - this is a big one. Christians also outlawed usury until the 16th century and usury is a foul thing and people don't realize the reality of it. Only the wealthy benefit from this. Destroys the society.
Spoiler!

Islam urges its followers to protect their property and preserve their wealth and commands them to earn a living, making all commercial transactions lawful.

In order to protect wealth, it considers usury, deception and misappropriation of people’s wealth by using wrongful means, strictly forbidden. The Qur’an warns perpetrators of such acts, of severe punishments.


I hope, God Willing, you find the truth for yourself. If you have specifics, feel free to ask. Also, refer to post #26 in this thread which points to another thread I made a few days ago on some stuff I've read over time about the crucifixion question.

Some videos on why prohibition is forbidden I found interesting

2:136
Say, ˹O believers,˺ We believe in Allah and what has been revealed to us; and what was revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and his descendants; what was given to Moses, Jesus, and other prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them. And to Allah we all submit.
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