Tbh I'd prefer you say it since I'm Muslim and def would like to hear your take and it's open to everyone. You've got the science people debating their points as well. You won't insult me my friend. Afghani people are good brothers of mine and great people. They legit are one of the stronger countries who live by Islam and abide by it so may Allah keep them firm during their difficulties.

I live by this verse so I won't mock the belief of anyone.

˹O believers!˺ Do not insult what they invoke besides Allah or they will insult Allah spitefully out of ignorance. This is how We have made each people’s deeds appealing to them. Then to their Lord is their return, and He will inform them of what they used to do. (6:108)

There is so much evidence that I cannot understand how you can assert "zero". Blows my mind srs.

Bro, I could put the time in and pick apart your whole post with responses to each individual statement you have made, but I feel like the whole post is a red herring as it's a clusterfuk of of statements that are leading us (or me) away from the actual topic at hand and the question I asked Paul.

E.g. I was trying to clarify his position on a "missing link" and now I need to address:

I'll save the quickly parsed quotes for later and I might respond if I get time as all of these statements can be easily refuted imo. But can you see how this kind of dialogue can make exploring any one aspect of this whole convo (or any serious convo about anything) much more challenging leaning towards impossible?

That's actually very big of you..most Muslims unfortunately don't have an open mind like you…it's difficult for me to explain but there are things about God and religion as a whole that I cannot ever believe in…I respect what it's for and how people use religion to better themselves but I just don't believe in good and evil, right wrong, don't believe anything has meaning, etc…im not trying to sell my views or claim that I'm right and believers are wrong…and would never do that..but it's something I've tried and it doesn't bring me the peace I was seeking all my life.

I just think anyone who succumbs to mocking a person's faith…whether they don't believe in it or believe in something different is simply not confident in their own beliefs..

I haven't talked to most Muslims but the ones I do are the same as me. Same with all the Christians I come by. One that comes to mind is one who still keeps in touch with me at an old company who sends me nice emails occasionally and not trying to convert me. My view is that Christians are good people. I think if people sat down and talked, you'd be surprised.

I think whatever label, Muslim, Christian, atheist, any -ism…if you aren't convinced on your stance, you'll show insecurity and no conviction. I don't need to belittle anyone and people are free to call me a terrorist as well.

If I killed say your child (if you have any), is that evil? Or it's fine because at the end, they were going to die?

Trying to just see your viewpoint.

You can't refute them because it is based entirely on assumptive science fiction. It's all theoretical.

So the entire conversation will boil down to belief vs. belief. You believe in no creator and "evolution" that started from a big bang, and we believe that there is a creator that created this world and man. A creator is the only logical belief given it has a starting point. Your belief doesn't. It can't. That's what cripples your belief system. Atheism relies on the authoritative man made "science" that is actually anti-science. It's science fiction. They don't even know what space is and their entire theory of space is based on the idea of "dark matter" which they have never seen. It's made up.

As an ex-atheist, I truly believe at some point in your life you will look at the ideas of atheism and be shocked you ever believed in it. While in the worldview of atheism we all take on the intellectual position utilizing "science" and what we believe is logic, but when you zoom out and start from the totality of the theoretical ideas, it is illogical because logic is being assumed on false principles.

In to read the full thread tomorrow

Like I said…I don't put any stock in subjective concepts…only absolutes and inevitables…one person's good is another person's evil and I don't believe I'm relevant enough to try and change those views…if you did that..I personally wouldn't consider it evil…it's just something I wouldn't want anyone to do to me so I won't do it to them. I am human so I'm not trying to say I wouldn't care but yeah…I don't put labels like good and evil on acts regardless of how heinous they might be

I've had some personal experiences that cannot really be explained outside of a Religious context. Below are the ones I can think of off the top of my head.

-I've dealt with some major depressive episodes throughout my life. When I was in my early 20's, I was planning on killing myself. I had it all mapped out, and as a last resort, I prayed to God that if I didn't get a sign from him that I would go through with it. A couple days later I get a call from my Mom who told me she was visited by an angel who said to her "I come to you to speak to x" where 'x' is my name. She had no idea what I was planning or how deep the depression was; I mostly kept all that hidden from everyone as best I could. My Mom actually has actually had a few interesting encounters like that. Even at my darkest, I always remembered that, which kept me from completely losing faith.

-Another time I was in a very dark place, drinking nightly, wishing death upon myself. My wife claimed she heard an audible voice in her ear that told her to pray for me, and she conveyed that to me.

-I've had several dreams played out exactly how I dreamed it. I'm talking about oddly specific surprises, like dreaming of an old friend I haven't talked to in years reaching out to, then that exact person calling me the next day, or going on a surprise day trip, then realizing that I dreamed of the exact thing/place the night before. One time I had a dream I was checking out some house with my wife. The next day my wife started to ask me If I could entertain her on something out of the blue, and before she could go further, I told her "Oh, you want me to check out a house with you," to which she replied something to the effect of "how the heck did you know that?" If that wasn't weird enough, I also knew the exact street it was on and was able described it's features. We visited it and yeah, it was the same house I dreamed of, but in the dream the house appeared nice on the outside, but was rotting on the inside. I knew that whoever bought it wasn't going to be happy.

I had a dream about 2-years ago about the collapse of the country. It happened in various stages and was incredibly vivid. I basically dreamed of the system being overwhelmed by illegal immigrants who became extremely agitated and chaos broke out as everyone was scrambling and killing each other over food shortages. Then I was in a hospitals that were also overwhelmed, and people were rioting because they were being refused medical care. I was lucid in the dream, i.e., I knew I was dreaming, but was just in awe of everything, and then asked God what can I do? Then I heard a voice that gave me some oddly specific instructions on what I'm supposed to do and where I am supposed to take my family. The dream continues and I am driving out west (I live on the east coast) and I was listening to the podcast. The podcast was telling me about a growing colony of illegal immigrants in Texas (I found out about Colony Ridge after), confirmed reports of massive sex trafficking operations at the border on the ground and sex slaves being shipped to America on large container ships (This was before the Sound of Freedom was released), and then I was told of attacks on the power grid and that the this would be the last podcast before everything gets shut down; the only radio broadcasts after that will be "local". The next thing I know I was seeing makeshift communities sprawling up in what appeared to be a midwest desert climate. I saw people setting up mobile homes, parking RV's and pitching tents to escape the chaos in the cities. There were Christians of different denominations living together in this town (I specifically saw Catholics and Mormons who made some sort of an agreement) and then I was taken to a trailer that was converted into a hospital. Next I start talking to this female doctor and get blasted with all these feelings of love, acceptance, and absolute peace that I have not felt before. The doctor opens up a file cabinet, pulls out a slide of my blood, sets it down in front of me, then tells me "We have been expecting you; God has known you by your blood before you were even born," and then I woke up. Later I found out the above comment was very similar to Jeremiah 1:5 when he was approached by God and given the gift of prophecy ("Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.”) Not to make any audacious claims, but I do believe that many are being given visions around the world as we speak.

Basically, to sum it all up, I've had enough weird unexplainable **** happen to me where I would be a fool not to believe in God. I believe many of you all would be able to see it too if you gave God a chance and softened your hearts.

Then whatever a Muslim (or insert any crazy does) was moral to them. There shouldn't be any consequence to the action. I might as well go rob and accumulate wealth illegally because in the end, it benefits me. Survival of the fittest.

Will read this brother and get back back tomorrow - trying to respond to all theology based posts. Gonna call it a day shortly

That's what nature intends…that's the purpose for all life..

I can't not believe in ultimate justice for the wrongdoer who got away with it

Valid point my friend. Imagine the mother who's child was brutally murdered…or the one who killed 100s of people. Reminds me of a verse.

45:20-22
This ˹Quran˺ is an insight for humanity—a guide and mercy for people of sure faith.
Or do those who commit evil deeds ˹simply˺ think that We will make them equal—in their life and after their death—to those who believe and do good? How wrong is their judgment!
For Allah created the heavens and the earth for a purpose, so that every soul may be paid back for what it has committed. And none will be wronged.

The evidence for evolution is overwhelming and comes from multiple independent lines of inquiry, a couple of examples:

-The fossil record provides a clear sequence of life forms, from simple to complex, over vast periods of time. Transitional fossils, such as Archaeopteryx (a bird-like dinosaur), offer concrete evidence of evolutionary change.

-Homologous structures (similar structures in different species with different functions, like the human arm and bat wing) point to a common ancestor.

-The development of embryos in different species shows striking similarities, suggesting shared ancestry.

-DNA analysis provides irrefutable evidence of shared genetic heritage among different species. The more closely related two species are, the more similar their DNA.

-Evolution is also observed in real-time, such as the development of antibiotic resistance in bacteria, viral evolution, pesticide resistance, selective breeding in animals and plants, mosquitoes developing resistance to insecticides, fruit flies in controlled experiments over several generations etc.

https://answersingenesis.org/genetic...i-e-coli-ltee/

https://www.labroots.com/trending/pl...radual-process


This is a false equivalence and kinda smells ad hominem overall tbh- evolution is a scientific theory supported by an overwhelming body of evidence from multiple disciplines. Belief in a deity, on the other hand, is based on faith, which is a belief in something without proof.

False dichotomy. Atheism is simply the lack of belief in a god or gods - it doesn't require positive evidence to support it, but rather the absence of convincing evidence for the existence of a deity. The burden of proof lies with those making the claim of a god's existence.

Fair enough bro - you do you srs.

Evolution is a well-supported scientific theory, not mere speculation. A theory in science is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world, based on a body of facts that have been repeatedly confirmed through observation and experiment. Theories are not guesses or opinions.

Categorically false. Evolutionary hypotheses are constantly tested and refined. E.g. predictions based on evolutionary theory are made, and then scientists conduct experiments or observations to see if those predictions hold true. The success of these tests strengthens the theory.

Our understanding of the timeline has refined over time with new discoveries, the overall framework of evolution remains robust. The timeline is a dynamic aspect of science, subject to revision as new evidence emerges. This is a strength of science, not a weakness.

No it absolutely does not. Yes the evolution of the eye is a complex process, but it is not insurmountable. The eye has evolved independently multiple times, and there are intermediate stages of eye development found in various organisms. Natural selection can explain the gradual development of complex structures like the eye.

The complexity of nature is a result of natural processes, such as self-organization and emergence. While these phenomena are awe inspiring, they do not necessitate a supernatural explanation, only emotions do. Fractals, for example, are mathematical patterns that arise from simple rules being repeatedly applied.

The universe is not believed to have come/made from "nothing." Theories about the origin of the universe, such as the Big Bang, propose conditions vastly different from the present. Also, symbiosis is a well-understood biological phenomenon that (again) does not require a supernatural explanation.

Evolution is not about "just because." It's a process driven by natural selection, a mechanism where organisms with traits better suited to their environment tend to survive and reproduce more successfully. While survival is essential, it's the differential reproductive success that is crucial. Organisms that not only survive but also reproduce more offspring are more likely to pass on their genes

The process of natural selection is based on logical principles: variation, inheritance, selection, and time. These factors working together over vast periods have produced the incredible complexity of life.

To claim that evolution is illogical is to misunderstand the process. It's a testament to the power of natural selection to create such intricate and diverse life forms over billions of years.

Bro this whole post is riddled with fallacies and misconceptions srs:

-False Dichotomy: The assertion that the only options are belief in a creator or the acceptance of "assumptive science fiction" is a false dichotomy. There are other worldviews and philosophical positions.
-Misunderstanding of Science: Science is not based on assumptions but on evidence, observation, and experimentation. Theories in science are explanations based on a vast body of evidence, which are constantly tested and refined.
-Appeal to Ignorance: The claim that "they don't even know what space is" is a classic appeal to ignorance. While our understanding of the universe is constantly evolving, significant knowledge has been accumulated through observation, experimentation, and theoretical modeling.
-Special Pleading: The assertion that logic is "assumed on false principles" in atheism while it's not in theism is special pleading. Logic is a fundamental tool of human reasoning and is applicable to both worldviews.
-Ad Hominem: The suggestion that atheists will eventually abandon their beliefs is a smells like a personal attack rather than a logical argument.

Further breaking it down:

Science is based on evidence, not assumptions. Evolution is a well-supported scientific theory with overwhelming evidence from multiple disciplines. Science is a powerful tool for understanding the natural world. It has led to incredible advancements in medicine, technology, and our overall quality of life. Dismissing it as "assumptive science fiction" is to ignore the tangible benefits it has brought to humanity.

There is no logical necessity to postulate a creator to explain the universe. It's a leap of faith, not a conclusion based on logical reasoning. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and the existence of a creator has yet to be substantiated.

Our understanding of space is constantly evolving, but significant knowledge has been accumulated. Dark matter is a hypothesis based on observational evidence, not mere speculation.

Science is a method, not an authority. It's based on empirical evidence and peer review. Atheism is simply the lack of belief in a god, not a reliance on science.

Logic is a fundamental tool of human reasoning applicable to all worldviews. There's no evidence to suggest logic is inherently flawed in atheism and to assert such without a compelling argument is not helpful.

The validity of atheism is not determined by future beliefs. Don't expect you to know/remember from earlier ITT but if pushed I would identify as agnostic anyway.

Do you believe the Jews are good or bad people?

Lol smug atheist who has replaced god with scientists. There are millions like you

IN SHORT:
God became as we are, so we may become as He is.

NOT SO SHORT:
Any two or more things that seem to exist must exist within a common reference field so that they can be presented as separate. An analogy for understanding is that no matter how many waves there are on the ocean, all the waves must have the ocean in common. Its not possible for a wave to exist independent of the ocean.

So the Ocean (God) is all there is. God in His absolute completeness possess all possibilities already finished. Thus He has nowhere to expand. And God loves everything about himself so much he wants to share himself. To do that he must create "others" who don't know who they are.

So, He created a universe containing the two essential elements for change, Time and Space. He then reduced his own perception (like the Ocean does with waves) into ignorant beings and populated His universe with these beings and put them on a line of expansion. Where its fair to say these beings begin to evolve from lowest (not knowing they are God,(the wave as it rises)) to highest (realizing they are God (the wave as it returns to it's source)).

So on a lower level of truth, evolution is the process of creation. On the highest level of truth, there is no wave. There is only God, and God imagining.

Wow, great read, you are blessed to have gifts of vision and prophecy, did God tell you when the chaos would take place?

I had a similar dream last year where I heard a soft voice telling me TWICE to leave California by a certain holiday with a group of similar minded people. It was very colorful and vivid dream. Still wondering if it was from God because unfortunately I don’t remember which holiday he told me to leave by in the dream. Except that it may start with the letter “S” and most likely in the fall. It’s a minor holiday, perhaps a Jewish one? Not sure, so I actually did pack up and leave last year but nothing happened so I wonder if something is yet to happen. I know I need to pray for interpretation.

Agnostic of course because nobody fcking knows and if they say they do they're lying.



That said, I'm pro religion since society needs moral rules and structure something the west severly lacks now.

If you aren't adhering to the laws of God, you won't be good

Brutal

So are you on the idea that we're all one entity and that we are all God? Why do I know things you don't?

Thanks for sharing I wonder what it's like having these kinda dreams

What if I say I'm certain about mine? Then what?

Which religion? Some differ in their values.

If you're certain God exists I don't believe you since nobody on this rock can prove it, if you're "certain" that means you succesfully brainwashed yourself. The most rational answer is we don't know aka being agnostic.



You're right about relgions, they differ in moral values. I would say christianity is a good one or atleast it's a good starting point, no religion is perfect.

Because I'm not stupid

It's illogical because you lack the intellectual capacity to grasp it. It's OK. Religion is mostly for the stupid, so you're in the majority in society.

Not sure which way you mean lol

/r/religion is maybe where you wanna go insulting people this is a civil discussion sir

If brainwashed is what you want to call it, then so be it. I'm absolutely certain though.

Fair enough. Were you brought up in a Christian land? Were you ever religious?

Religion is the first and worst attempt at explaining things. Maybe it did help humanity to get through tough times now and then but it is still untrue.