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Forum » Guitar Megathread II: Unleash the picking fury!!!
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Thread: Guitar Megathread II: Unleash the picking fury!!!

post 1688227573 08-12-2023, 11:09 AM
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I saw Allan many years ago at a small club. He was just sitting at the bar a few feet away and no one was talking to him.

post 1688227913 08-12-2023, 11:17 AM
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post 1688228733 08-12-2023, 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted By rollerball⏩
Did you say hello to him or did that feel to weird and awkward
I was there with a friend and we wanted to talk to him but never did. In interviews he was self deprecating and was never comfortable with nuthuggery so it was probably for the best. It would have been better to have a conversation about beer than music.

He was at the absolute peak of his powers when I saw him. No one has ever made an impression on me like that. He obviously had licks but not in the conventional sense but he'd just effortlessly connect it all for several minutes which never sounded rehearsed. Thanks to the internet people have dissected his stuff in detail but take my word for it as humble as he was the guy had an aura.

“He sure has made an impression on me; he does things I have not heard the guitar do... He's not trying new things, he's mastering them.” - George Benson

“To me, Allan Holdsworth is in a league by himself, and the thing that he possesses as an artist -- and this is important to me -- he’s got his own thing. There’s no one really who competes with what he does, because there’s no one else that really does it at all. And that’s what I love about him, more so than how amazing he is, but what I love is that he is a true artist in the sense that you can’t get that across the street, you can’t get that anywhere else except from him. His whole musical package is a complete statement that will never be repeated or even emulated.” - Greg Howe
post 1688228823 08-12-2023, 11:34 AM
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post 1688230253 08-12-2023, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted By rollerball⏩
Those are great quotes. Allan really was such an anomaly.
Nashville session guy Tom Bukovac said: "He plays guitar like he's never seen anybody play guitar before." Sums it up. With most musicians you can trace a path to developing their style. He created his own thing which is not for everyone but if you appreciate it you know how special it is.

Some of the older crew here might remember REH videos. AH did one but it didn't reveal much other than some great studio playing.

post 1688230433 08-12-2023, 12:14 PM
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post 1688230753 08-12-2023, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted By rollerball⏩
I've seen this video. He has a fukking hilarious scale graph overlaying a fretboard and literally every single fret has a dot lol.
That's the one. I had some great conversations with the guy who built his guitars, Bill DeLap. He had no idea what Allan was doing either.



That reminds me, when Holdsworth went to Carvin he had them completely rip off DeLap's twin i-beam design. Those guitars are hollow inside.

Since I prefer guitars with headstocks I didn't mind those Carvin Fatboys, especially the koa ones.

post 1688230803 08-12-2023, 12:21 PM
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post 1688242903 08-12-2023, 04:24 PM
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Originally Posted By rollerball⏩
Blech lol, why do you like that horrific looking thing?

I would love to cover it with gasoline and light it on fire.
Based contrarian lol 😂
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post 1688245833 08-12-2023, 05:20 PM
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post 1688317653 08-14-2023, 02:16 AM
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Originally Posted By Dominik⏩
I was there with a friend and we wanted to talk to him but never did. In interviews he was self deprecating and was never comfortable with nuthuggery so it was probably for the best. It would have been better to have a conversation about beer than music.

He was at the absolute peak of his powers when I saw him. No one has ever made an impression on me like that. He obviously had licks but not in the conventional sense but he'd just effortlessly connect it all for several minutes which never sounded rehearsed. Thanks to the internet people have dissected his stuff in detail but take my word for it as humble as he was the guy had an aura.

“He sure has made an impression on me; he does things I have not heard the guitar do... He's not trying new things, he's mastering them.” - George Benson

“To me, Allan Holdsworth is in a league by himself, and the thing that he possesses as an artist -- and this is important to me -- he’s got his own thing. There’s no one really who competes with what he does, because there’s no one else that really does it at all. And that’s what I love about him, more so than how amazing he is, but what I love is that he is a true artist in the sense that you can’t get that across the street, you can’t get that anywhere else except from him. His whole musical package is a complete statement that will never be repeated or even emulated.” - Greg Howe
Yes, it's why I loved Allan too and can listen to his stuff over and over and always find something new. I used to love studying the most abstruse elements of jazz theory and believe me it gets complex. Even at its most abstract, I found something that Holdsworth had incorporated.


I read an interview where he said he saw little LEDS in his mind that showed the scale pathways, and he had his own system for categorizing scales. He always sounded like he invented his own scales, like his runs didn't even sound human or fitting within any known musical concept.

You just can't capture him with rules or theory. He knows rules and theory, of course, and that helps him go beyond rules and theory into pure creativity without being discordant or lawless. It's a form of outside-sound that springboards off traditional music theory but isn't just playing whatever, either. It's difficult to put into words, it's like a highly refined aesthetic sense of when and where you can stray beyond the bounds of "rules".


That's why this type of jazz has elements which I think simply can't be taught.
Back off, Warchild.

Seriously.
post 1688319073 08-14-2023, 03:13 AM
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post 1688319463 08-14-2023, 03:30 AM
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Originally Posted By rollerball⏩
Nice spewing of b.s. there buddy lmao
Eat my excrement.
Back off, Warchild.

Seriously.
post 1688319603 08-14-2023, 03:37 AM
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post 1688320223 08-14-2023, 04:10 AM
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Originally Posted By rollerball⏩
Lmao at you pretending like you knew wtf you were talking about. JFL.

It’s obvious af you don’t know theory or jazz for chit with that generic chit you were spouting. Lol pathetic.
Ok, so tell me what don't I understand about jazz or theory? I was simply saying Holdsworth had such a unique sound because he employed jazz techniques of playing outside standard orthodox music theory.


Instead of just mouthing off, explain where I'm mistaken.
Back off, Warchild.

Seriously.
post 1688322053 08-14-2023, 05:29 AM
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post 1688325903 08-14-2023, 07:10 AM
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Let's have a beer gentlemen. I understand where you're both coming from. When he played the Synthax his solos didn't sound that different to what Steve Hunt on keyboards was playing. His lines were definitely more piano and horn inspired which is why it seemed alien to most of us playing guitar.

Holdsworth only played with musicians on his level (and he never told them what to play) and Steve Hunt knows Allan's music better than anyone. This is incredibly beautiful.



The real magic to his playing is the way he'd float between dissonant sounding lines that created tension and landing on the perfect note when the harmony went diatonic again.

He definitely liked symmetrical scales and scales that would resolve over 2-3 octaves. There's a quote from Bill Bruford: "Allan had given me Nicolas Slonimsky's Thesaurus Of Scales And Melodic Patterns as a Christmas gift." Personally I enjoyed his slower playing as much as anything he did with those "sheets of sound" especially with the ridiculous 36" and 38" baritone guitars DeLap made him. His vibrato was absolutely perfect and those super light strings required so much control.



post 1688328103 08-14-2023, 08:00 AM
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Originally Posted By rollerball⏩
He could play awesome outside lines but statements like not “fitting within any known musical concept” is you spewing bs and you know it.
agreed
Originally Posted By Bodhy⏩
Eat my excrement.
I don't lick walls
post 1688328953 08-14-2023, 08:16 AM
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post 1688332073 08-14-2023, 09:03 AM
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Originally Posted By rollerball⏩
That tension and release aspect you’re describing, or rather my inability to do the same, is why I get so enamored with fusion players of all instruments. I can only play vanilla, diatonic lines. Any attempt on my part for chromatic alterations instantly exposes my lack of ability in doing so and makes me sound fukking terrible.
He does it effortlessly. Look at the harmony he's playing over here. It's interesting how the jazz world had no interest in him yet his music wasjazz. He wasn't blowing the same arpeggios over ii-V-Is.



What speaks to your point earlier is how his solos sound when played by a sax. It all makes sense. May as well be a Michael Brecker solo.

Originally Posted By rollerball⏩
I admit though, I’m not a huge fan of his “cluster” chords or whatever their called where the relevant tones are really “close together” or however that’s supposed to be described. But I can listen to his fast lines all fukking day long.
It's an acquired taste that was definitely a key part of his sound. I got Ted Greene's Chord Chemistry early on and learned a metric fkton of chord shapes for jazz (lots of b9/#9 b5/+5 chords) and not a single one of those 100s of shapes sounded like Allan. I think he systematically discarded anything that was "jazz." He liked to take a cluster like you described with notes that were really grating like minor 2nd intervals, spread them out, and then shift up to the next scale tones and add color that way. Unlike 99.9% of jazz guitarists who mainly think in terms of chords and arpeggios he backed scales all the way so that even influenced the way he approached harmony and chord construction. In that REH video he called them "chord scales."
post 1688334323 08-14-2023, 09:41 AM
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post 1688349023 08-14-2023, 01:32 PM
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Originally Posted By Dominik⏩
Originally Posted By rollerball⏩
Yeah wtf IS that
It's a nonatonic scale, Messiaen's 3rd mode: 1, 2, b3, 3, #4, 5, b6, b7, 7.

It's better and easier to think of it as being based on the whole tone scale (1, 2, 3, #4, #5, b7) with the insertion of a chromatic above every other note (2nd, 4th, and 6th pitches) of the scale (sort of like adding a chromatic above the 3rd pitch of the pentatonic to form a blues scale). This makes it easier to keep the integrity of the augmented sound while incorporating the added notes for texture and helps avoid the symmetrical sounds that these kinds of scales make easy for one to fall into.
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post 1688349523 08-14-2023, 01:40 PM
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post 1688355763 08-14-2023, 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted By z4v4⏩
It's a nonatonic scale, Messiaen's 3rd mode: 1, 2, b3, 3, #4, 5, b6, b7, 7.

It's better and easier to think of it as being based on the whole tone scale (1, 2, 3, #4, #5, b7) with the insertion of a chromatic above every other note (2nd, 4th, and 6th pitches) of the scale (sort of like adding a chromatic above the 3rd pitch of the pentatonic to form a blues scale). This makes it easier to keep the integrity of the augmented sound while incorporating the added notes for texture and helps avoid the symmetrical sounds that these kinds of scales make easy for one to fall into.
my first thought when I saw that was the stacked major thirds, or augmented, with 2 extra notes on top of each, but didn't immediately notice the whole tone scale, that explanation makes sense
post 1688359493 08-14-2023, 04:15 PM
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Like most great players he'd reached a level where he'd internalized this stuff and wasn't looking at shapes and patterns. Stood 20 feet away from him and his eyes were shut a lot of the time during solos.

To him that was a whole step and 2 semitones. He would have played so many lines with it that he wouldn't have to think about it anymore. As soon as there were a few bars where the harmony implied an augmented chord (he left that up to the bass player) for example he'd uncork something like that or symmetrical patterns he'd pulled from that Slonimsky book that he started working on in the 70s. I've read a lot of interviews and never heard him mention Messiaen.

rollerball, have a listen.

post 1688372873 08-14-2023, 08:44 PM
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post 1688672943 08-20-2023, 05:54 PM
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4 days until Lori, prolly gonna be crying like a bish

Don't put that on me Ricky Bobby, don't you ever put that on me.
post 1688688683 08-21-2023, 12:27 AM
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Originally Posted By Bando⏩
4 days until Lori, prolly gonna be crying like a bish

You're seeing her live? She popped up on my ******** video feed, quite the talent.
Back off, Warchild.

Seriously.
post 1688743333 08-21-2023, 11:31 PM
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post 1688748603 08-22-2023, 03:39 AM
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Originally Posted By rollerball⏩
I always loved the tone Holdsworth got in this version of Protos Cosmos starting at 0:57.
He was unhappy with that video because they mixed his guitar down onto the drum tracks so he couldn't do any tweaking. Sounded great to me.

Late 80s through 90s Holdsworth was the peak for me. He then went through a divorce, folded up his studio (The Brewery), and never made another album. He quit cycling and according to Gary Husband was drinking more which not only negatively affected his playing but he gained a lot of weight.

He was never satisfied but I do remember him saying he was happy with Hard Hat Area. My favourite is Wardenclyffe Tower.

I love his solo on this (1997), tone included. He was using Carvins around this time in photos but I'd bet good money it was his DeLap.

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