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08-08-2024, 04:50 PM
#241
Originally Posted By Paul Kreul⏩
Not to mention that one out of place amino acid in a protein structure like an enzyme often results in a misfolded protein and not a better protein.
Someone has to write that computer program, just another testament that shows macro evolution & abiogenesis false. As I stated above, “ the evolutionist view of theory of probability, as in could there have been an existence of a strand of DNA come about by chance that given enough time. It does not work. When it comes to the information string in the DNA the contention is that given enough time, if one runs the experiment enough times, eventually you will end up with an evolution combined with natural selection it preserves mutations that are good & you will end up with something that looks designed even though it is not designed. Mutations over time being preserved by natural selection is enough.. this DOES NOT WORK.”
We know with software code that the LAST thing you want in a functional software code is a series of random changes to those zeros & ones. If that happens, you will DEGRADE THE INFORMATION IN THAT CODE, LONG BEFORE YOU WILL EVER GENERATE A SOFTWARE PROGRAM OR OPERATING SYSTEM. Richard Dawkins & many, many others have acknowledged that what we have in DNA code is akin to machine or as Leroy Hood puts it..DIGITAL CODE. It is functioning in EXACTLY the SAME WAY. What you learn from software writing & using is highly relevant in understanding whether or not the mutation selection mechanism would actually generate new information. There is a reason that changing software at random ALWAYS DEGRADES the information vastly before you get anything new that is useful. It is because there are so many more ways to go wrong in any system of digital typographic or alphabetic communication. There are vastly more ways of arranging the characters in question will generate gibberish than there are ways of arranging those same characters that will generate something that is functional.
We know with software code that the LAST thing you want in a functional software code is a series of random changes to those zeros & ones. If that happens, you will DEGRADE THE INFORMATION IN THAT CODE, LONG BEFORE YOU WILL EVER GENERATE A SOFTWARE PROGRAM OR OPERATING SYSTEM. Richard Dawkins & many, many others have acknowledged that what we have in DNA code is akin to machine or as Leroy Hood puts it..DIGITAL CODE. It is functioning in EXACTLY the SAME WAY. What you learn from software writing & using is highly relevant in understanding whether or not the mutation selection mechanism would actually generate new information. There is a reason that changing software at random ALWAYS DEGRADES the information vastly before you get anything new that is useful. It is because there are so many more ways to go wrong in any system of digital typographic or alphabetic communication. There are vastly more ways of arranging the characters in question will generate gibberish than there are ways of arranging those same characters that will generate something that is functional.
Even Richard Dawkins who usually sounds smart sounded stupid to me explaining how an eye formed through evolution - where someone who 'saw better' survived better. N1gga please, if someone can't see properly they are not surviving anything, let alone passing on their genes and mutations for 'good eye sight' are very likely to occur in the absence of mutations resulting in malfunction in the same body.
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08-08-2024, 04:54 PM
#242
Originally Posted By WiseOldApe⏩
in modern terms, it would literally mean we are in a computer. more like a virtual machine, a sandbox
When people say that reality is a simulation, I don't think they mean in a literal computer program (although they could), I think they mean as in the nature of reality is mathematical, followings certain laws and is bound by certain constraints, sort of like how a program is created in a computer.
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08-08-2024, 04:55 PM
#243
Originally Posted By MiscMathematician⏩
What if its a docker container?
in modern terms, it would literally mean we are in a computer. more like a virtual machine, a sandbox
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08-08-2024, 05:00 PM
#244
Originally Posted By MiscMathematician⏩
Well I don't know about actual computer, but if you were to say that nothing actually exists the way we think it does and everything is told 'do this by this measure', 'don't do that by that measure', 'if x is present, y is not', etc, I wouldn't argue the point with you. Even from a creationist point of view, it seems that this is how physical reality is - i.e., it's mathematical in nature and governed by various forces (gravity, strong/nuclear force, etc), which themselves are just told what to do.
in modern terms, it would literally mean we are in a computer. more like a virtual machine, a sandbox
In the bible it says that God says "let there be light" and the quality of light comes into being - i.e., the universe's was spoken into existence by God's mind, who in the NT is identified sa the Word of God, who takes on flesh and incarnates as Jesus Christ on Earth.
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08-08-2024, 05:02 PM
#245
Originally Posted By SunnahAndSalaf⏩
Are you saying the Quran does not speak for itself?
What you've quoted is the Quran. I'm asking for isnad and the tafsir. Who narrated it, what's their isnad? Do you have even 1 isnad? Has it passed the grade of what an authentic hadith is (science of hadith).
Other questions that I want to know as well
Name the authority (is it Qudsi? Marfu?)
Which 6 links of isnad is it? (Is it Musnad? Muttasil? One of the others?)
Thank you
Other questions that I want to know as well
Name the authority (is it Qudsi? Marfu?)
Which 6 links of isnad is it? (Is it Musnad? Muttasil? One of the others?)
Thank you
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08-08-2024, 05:03 PM
#246
Originally Posted By SunnahAndSalaf⏩
Like I said, I’ve studied Christianity, Buddhism, Wicca, New Age, Daoism, Sikhism, and just pondered all kinds of things for myself. I’ve also listened to dozens if not 100+ first hand accounts of people who have actually died, experienced aspects of the afterlife, and returned. Not to mention, it makes a lot of sense to me. As I stated before, I think hell and heaven can be real to an extent…but as far as those being the end of everything(ie a soul is tortured for eternity) then no…that doesn’t make sense at all to me. Take a few seconds to comprehend what that means….well, actually, there is no way for our minds to comprehend it. I think that God is a just Creator, and that view is not compatible with the belief that hell as it’s explained in religious texts is correct. There is absolutely no way a human could do anything in a life where the just punishment would be eternal, unfathomably excruciating torture.
Is this your opinion? Do you have sources for these on where you picked this up?
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08-08-2024, 05:08 PM
#247
Originally Posted By jtaylor2010⏩
It can be if you understand that eternity is all there and and that the temporal experience is an illusion - Orthodox Christianity teaches that hell is the eternal separation from God for beings who didn't want to live with God, for example satan and his fallen angels.
Like I said, I’ve studied Christianity, Buddhism, Wicca, New Age, Daoism, Sikhism, and just pondered all kinds of things for myself. I’ve also listened to dozens if not 100+ first hand accounts of people who have actually died, experienced aspects of the afterlife, and returned. Not to mention, it makes a lot of sense to me. As I stated before, I think hell and heaven can be real to an extent…but as far as those being the end of everything(ie a soul is tortured for eternity) then no…that doesn’t make sense at all to me. Take a few seconds to comprehend what that means….well, actually, there is no way for our minds to comprehend it. I think that God is a just Creator, and that view is not compatible with the belief that hell as it’s explained in religious texts is correct. There is absolutely no way a human could do anything in a life where the just punishment would be eternal, unfathomably excruciating torture.
Also, you've only studied two religions those of God and those of satan - and of course satan says there's no eternal torment (which is where he's headed) to get you to fuk up and join him or he good old 'sin now pay later' scheme called karma. Comes from the same place as credit cards, etc.
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08-08-2024, 05:15 PM
#248
Originally Posted By Paul Kreul⏩
I'm asking you to clarify where you got your position from. You said the Quran says to worship Jesus. If you're talking to a Muslim, we have a way that we adhere to. These are only some of the questions I would ask you. If you want to answer, feel free I'm listening.
Are you saying the Quran does not speak for itself?
If you're giving me your answer, that's fine.
You'd be better off trying to evangelize the people in the thread lol if they are willing to listen.
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08-08-2024, 05:16 PM
#249
Originally Posted By jtaylor2010⏩
Brother, I meant if you could link sources or something on your position.
Like I said, I’ve studied Christianity, Buddhism, Wicca, New Age, Daoism, Sikhism, and just pondered all kinds of things for myself. I’ve also listened to dozens if not 100+ first hand accounts of people who have actually died, experienced aspects of the afterlife, and returned. Not to mention, it makes a lot of sense to me. As I stated before, I think hell and heaven can be real to an extent…but as far as those being the end of everything(ie a soul is tortured for eternity) then no…that doesn’t make sense at all to me. Take a few seconds to comprehend what that means….well, actually, there is no way for our minds to comprehend it. I think that God is a just Creator, and that view is not compatible with the belief that hell as it’s explained in religious texts is correct. There is absolutely no way a human could do anything in a life where the just punishment would be eternal, unfathomably excruciating torture.
I think you said you're a Christian? Or maybe that view appeals to you the most?
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08-08-2024, 05:17 PM
#250
Originally Posted By SunnahAndSalaf⏩
As a muslim, what are your thoughts on the sacrificial laws in leviticus?
I'm asking you to clarify where you got your position from. You said the Quran says to worship Jesus. If you're talking to a Muslim, we have a way that we adhere to. These are only some of the questions I would ask you. If you want to answer, feel free I'm listening.
If you're giving me your answer, that's fine.
You'd be better off trying to evangelize the people in the thread lol if they are willing to listen.
If you're giving me your answer, that's fine.
You'd be better off trying to evangelize the people in the thread lol if they are willing to listen.
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08-08-2024, 05:17 PM
#251
Don't know if there's an entity that created everything, but if it's important that I acknowledge this creator, it will let me know. Since it hasn't, it either doesn't exist, or doesn't care if I know it exists. Humans will say otherwise, but humans are humans.
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08-08-2024, 05:18 PM
#252
Originally Posted By WiseOldApe⏩
I agree with this. There's truth and anything that opposes it is falsehood.
Also, you've only studied two religions those of God and those of satan
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08-08-2024, 05:19 PM
#253
Originally Posted By Muzzlrpress⏩
It would be a pretty self-important creator to force worship.
Don't know if there's an entity that created everything, but if it's important that I acknowledge this creator, it will let me know. Since it hasn't, it either doesn't exist, or doesn't care if I know it exists. Humans will say otherwise, but humans are humans.
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08-08-2024, 05:19 PM
#254
Originally Posted By Muzzlrpress⏩
Fair enough. So agnostic brother? Were you always on this view?
Don't know if there's an entity that created everything, but if it's important that I acknowledge this creator, it will let me know. Since it hasn't, it either doesn't exist, or doesn't care if I know it exists. Humans will say otherwise, but humans are humans.
How would this creator let you know?
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08-08-2024, 05:22 PM
#255
Originally Posted By WiseOldApe⏩
I'm not a Jew or Christian brother and my knowledge of the Bible is not that much in comparison to the Quran so I don't think it's my position to speak on something without knowledge. If you want to add more, feel free.
As a muslim, what are your thoughts on the sacrificial laws in leviticus?
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08-08-2024, 05:27 PM
#256
Originally Posted By SunnahAndSalaf⏩
I said the Quran affirms the Bible, and the Bible states to follow and worship Jesus..not Mohammad
I'm asking you to clarify where you got your position from. You said the Quran says to worship Jesus. If you're talking to a Muslim, we have a way that we adhere to. These are only some of the questions I would ask you. If you want to answer, feel free I'm listening.
If you're giving me your answer, that's fine.
You'd be better off trying to evangelize the people in the thread lol if they are willing to listen.
If you're giving me your answer, that's fine.
You'd be better off trying to evangelize the people in the thread lol if they are willing to listen.
And believe in that I have sent down, confirming that which IS with you, and be not the first to disbelieve in it. And sell not My signs for a little price; and fear you Me. S. 2:41
And when there came to them a Book from Allah verifying that which they have, and aforetime they used to pray for victory against those who disbelieve, but when there came to them (Prophet) that which they did not recognize, they disbelieved in him; so Allah's curse is on the unbelievers. S. 2:89 Shakir
And when they were told, 'Believe in that God has sent down,' they said, 'We believe in what was sent down on us'; and they disbelieve in what is beyond that, yet it is the truth confirming what IS with them. Say: 'Why then were you slaying the Prophets of God in former time, if you were believers?' S. 2:91
Say: Whoever is the enemy of Jibreel – for surely he revealed it to your heart by Allah's command, verifying that which IS before it and guidance and good news for the believers. S. 2:97 Shakir
And when there came to them an Apostle from Allah verifying that which they have, a party of those who were given the Book threw the Book of Allah behind their backs as if they knew nothing. S. 2:101 Shakir
He sent down to you this scripture, truthfully, confirming all previous scriptures, and He sent down the Torah and the Gospel. S. 3:3 Khalifa
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08-08-2024, 05:29 PM
#257
Originally Posted By gesten⏩
your definition of love is arbitrary so you haven't proved anything
God cannot be all loving and all powerful at the same time cause then would be no pain disease death etc
I’m starting to have Scientology/buddhism take on this as every being is on the same level and not one more powerful than the other
I’m starting to have Scientology/buddhism take on this as every being is on the same level and not one more powerful than the other
a lot of christians would say God is loving
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08-08-2024, 05:31 PM
#258
Originally Posted By SunnahAndSalaf⏩
Christian up until I was 25. Just allowed myself to honestly question everything I believed up until then, which led me to where I am now. I suppose it would be classified as agnostic. As for how it would let me know, I don't know. If it's all powerful like in the Christian version, I'm sure it would know exactly how to do so.
Fair enough. So agnostic brother? Were you always on this view?
How would this creator let you know?
How would this creator let you know?
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08-08-2024, 05:33 PM
#259
Originally Posted By Paul Kreul⏩
Lets connect the dots. Why aren't 2 billion Muslims doing this?
I said the Quran affirms the Bible, and the Bible states to follow and worship Jesus..not Mohammad
And believe in that I have sent down, confirming that which IS with you, and be not the first to disbelieve in it. And sell not My signs for a little price; and fear you Me. S. 2:41
And when there came to them a Book from Allah verifying that which they have, and aforetime they used to pray for victory against those who disbelieve, but when there came to them (Prophet) that which they did not recognize, they disbelieved in him; so Allah's curse is on the unbelievers. S. 2:89 Shakir
And when they were told, 'Believe in that God has sent down,' they said, 'We believe in what was sent down on us'; and they disbelieve in what is beyond that, yet it is the truth confirming what IS with them. Say: 'Why then were you slaying the Prophets of God in former time, if you were believers?' S. 2:91
Say: Whoever is the enemy of Jibreel – for surely he revealed it to your heart by Allah's command, verifying that which IS before it and guidance and good news for the believers. S. 2:97 Shakir
And when there came to them an Apostle from Allah verifying that which they have, a party of those who were given the Book threw the Book of Allah behind their backs as if they knew nothing. S. 2:101 Shakir
He sent down to you this scripture, truthfully, confirming all previous scriptures, and He sent down the Torah and the Gospel. S. 3:3 Khalifa
And believe in that I have sent down, confirming that which IS with you, and be not the first to disbelieve in it. And sell not My signs for a little price; and fear you Me. S. 2:41
And when there came to them a Book from Allah verifying that which they have, and aforetime they used to pray for victory against those who disbelieve, but when there came to them (Prophet) that which they did not recognize, they disbelieved in him; so Allah's curse is on the unbelievers. S. 2:89 Shakir
And when they were told, 'Believe in that God has sent down,' they said, 'We believe in what was sent down on us'; and they disbelieve in what is beyond that, yet it is the truth confirming what IS with them. Say: 'Why then were you slaying the Prophets of God in former time, if you were believers?' S. 2:91
Say: Whoever is the enemy of Jibreel – for surely he revealed it to your heart by Allah's command, verifying that which IS before it and guidance and good news for the believers. S. 2:97 Shakir
And when there came to them an Apostle from Allah verifying that which they have, a party of those who were given the Book threw the Book of Allah behind their backs as if they knew nothing. S. 2:101 Shakir
He sent down to you this scripture, truthfully, confirming all previous scriptures, and He sent down the Torah and the Gospel. S. 3:3 Khalifa
I asked for one single Isnad. None yet.
I asked a single Tafsir that says this. None yet.
It's like me quoting this and going to Christians and saying "Gotcha…see, Jesus is not God but a Prophet so the Quran is correct". What kinda nonsense would that be?
Matthew 21:10-11
10 When Jesus entered Jerusalem, the whole city was stirred and asked, “Who is this?”
11 The crowds answered, “This is Jesus, the prophet from Nazareth in Galilee.”
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08-08-2024, 05:34 PM
#260
Originally Posted By WiseOldApe⏩
That would be even worse. To say that heaven and hell are the only things that are real, but then you create an illusion that people must successfully navigate through else they suffer eternal torture of incomprehensible pain. Nah bro, that’s not just at all.
It can be if you understand that eternity is all there and and that the temporal experience is an illusion - Orthodox Christianity teaches that hell is the eternal separation from God for beings who didn't want to live with God, for example satan and his fallen angels.
Also, you've only studied two religions those of God and those of satan - and of course satan says there's no eternal torment (which is where he's headed) to get you to fuk up and join him or he good old 'sin now pay later' scheme called karma. Comes from the same place as credit cards, etc.
Also, you've only studied two religions those of God and those of satan - and of course satan says there's no eternal torment (which is where he's headed) to get you to fuk up and join him or he good old 'sin now pay later' scheme called karma. Comes from the same place as credit cards, etc.
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08-08-2024, 05:36 PM
#261
Originally Posted By SunnahAndSalaf⏩
Lets connect the dots. Why aren't 2 billion Muslims doing this?
I asked for one single Isnad. None yet.
I asked a single Tafsir that says this. None yet.
It's like me quoting this and going to Christians and saying "Gotcha…see, Jesus is not God but a Prophet so the Quran is correct". What kinda nonsense would that be?
Matthew 21:10-11
10 When Jesus entered Jerusalem, the whole city was stirred and asked, “Who is this?”
11 The crowds answered, “This is Jesus, the prophet from Nazareth in Galilee.”
I asked for one single Isnad. None yet.
I asked a single Tafsir that says this. None yet.
It's like me quoting this and going to Christians and saying "Gotcha…see, Jesus is not God but a Prophet so the Quran is correct". What kinda nonsense would that be?
Matthew 21:10-11
10 When Jesus entered Jerusalem, the whole city was stirred and asked, “Who is this?”
11 The crowds answered, “This is Jesus, the prophet from Nazareth in Galilee.”
Jesus is the prophet..who is also God. Does the Quran not state it is simple & easy to follow, does not cause confusion? The author of the Quran believed that the Revelation which the Jews and Christians of his time had in their very own possessions, which would have been the Holy Bible, was God's true and preserved Word, and that the function of the Quran was to confirm them. But as anyone reading the Holy Bible and the Quran readily sees, the Quran does anything but confirm the previous Scriptures.
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08-08-2024, 05:36 PM
#262
Originally Posted By ninetynine8⏩
Yeah I do agree that a lot of Christians would
your definition of love is arbitrary so you haven't proved anything
a lot of christians would say God is loving
a lot of christians would say God is loving
Originally Posted By Muzzlrpress⏩
What changed? I mean until 25 is kind of a long time. Was it moving away from parents and figuring it out on your own?
Christian up until I was 25. Just allowed myself to honestly question everything I believed up until then, which led me to where I am now. I suppose it would be classified as agnostic. As for how it would let me know, I don't know. If it's all powerful like in the Christian version, I'm sure it would know exactly how to do so.
Well, just to question your position slightly, are you not somewhat imposing how God should or shouldn't do something if he was or wasn't there? Idk if that was clear if you get what I'm saying.
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08-08-2024, 05:42 PM
#263
Originally Posted By jtaylor2010⏩
In Christian theology we are taught that God is all good and all love. Why would anybody want to rebel against such a God? Out of evil. Satan rebelled and was cast out, since such a creature has no place in the Kingdom of Heaven, much like a serial killer has no place in society. Essentially, satan created his own reality which is a reflection of himself - hell. Those humans who join along with the rebellion end up the same.
That would be even worse. To say that heaven and hell are the only things that are real, but then you create an illusion that people must successfully navigate through else they suffer eternal torture of incomprehensible pain. Nah bro, that’s not just at all.
The issue with sin isn't that 'you're allowed to do what you want', it's that sin affects everyone around you - it's not exactly God forcing people to behave a certain way, it's that without law and order, other people are not safe.
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08-08-2024, 05:47 PM
#264
Originally Posted By SunnahAndSalaf⏩
Questions about the Bible itself where the answers sufficed while I was a child, but didn't hold up to common sense in my mind as I got older. Then there's the fact that people across the world strongly believe in the religion they were taught with as much fervor as the people I knew. If I grew up in Iran, I'd have been Muslim. Most religious people follow the one their people follow, and all claim to have it the right way.
Yeah I do agree that a lot of Christians would
What changed? I mean until 25 is kind of a long time. Was it moving away from parents and figuring it out on your own?
Well, just to question your position slightly, are you not somewhat imposing how God should or shouldn't do something if he was or wasn't there? Idk if that was clear if you get what I'm saying.
What changed? I mean until 25 is kind of a long time. Was it moving away from parents and figuring it out on your own?
Well, just to question your position slightly, are you not somewhat imposing how God should or shouldn't do something if he was or wasn't there? Idk if that was clear if you get what I'm saying.
As for you second question, I'm not exactly sure what you mean. The Christian God is said to be loving, but it doesn't mesh with the fact that hell is eternal. Eternal torture for temporary sin. Everyone is this thread lives someone m no one would do they to someone they loved. Even if you punished someone you loved, it wouldn't be for literal eternity. If the God in the Bible is loving and hell is real, logic would dictate that this God would do whatever it took to make sure the people it loved wouldn't burn forever (even though it created the eternal burning place). To me, it makes no logical sense unless love ascribed to God isn't the same love we feel, and if that's the case, why call it love?
If it exists, I believe it can be good, evil, or indifferent. If it's evil, we're screwed regardless. If it's good, no one dies for eternity. If it's indifferent, what we think of it doesn't matter. If it wants us to know it's real and is as powerful as religions claim it is, there's nothing stopping it from letting someone know if they felt like that person should know. It's not like there aren't stories in the Bible where God literally talks to someone, or sends an angel to kick their ass and give them some colorful drip afterwards.
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08-08-2024, 06:03 PM
#265
Originally Posted By Paul Kreul⏩
But I'm just reading that verse. I don't see God at all in that verse. I clearly see Prophet though. Why are you adding that in?
Jesus is the prophet..who is also God.
See how dumb my position is now?
Does the Quran not state it is simple & easy to follow, does not cause confusion?
What is clear?
Example, the most important concept in Islam, Tawhid (Oneness of God).
Example, Salah (Prayer).
Example, Sawm (Fasting).
Example, what is permissible to eat and what isn't.
What is elusive?
Example, what does the verse 3:1 mean?
Example, 39:67, what does "when on the Day of Judgment the ˹whole˺ earth will be in His Grip, and the heavens will be rolled up in His Right Hand" mean?
Even to add more, go to 4:59.
What does "obey Allah" and "obey the Messenger" mean if I read the verse? How do I obey the Messenger today?
What does "And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger" mean? How do I refer to the Messenger today?
The author of the Quran believed that the Revelation which the Jews and Christians of his time had in their very own possessions, which would have been the Holy Bible, was God's true and preserved Word, and that the function of the Quran was to confirm them. But as anyone reading the Holy Bible and the Quran readily sees, the Quran does anything but confirm the previous Scriptures.
Just some interesting things I would like to add which I won't use any Islamic sources but you have Christian church fathers, such as Tertullian, who would have writings that would rebuke heretic Christian groups during his time who did not believe that Jesus was God. I will actually get the resources if you want to read. Let me know.
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08-08-2024, 06:30 PM
#266
Originally Posted By Muzzlrpress⏩
The first part, I agree with you. Just because you forefathers followed something does not mean you need to follow it blindly. Islam isn't "just believe because …". The book tells you to use your intellect and to look for proofs. I rather just quote a verse from the Quran (of course, it is indeed just a claim)
Questions about the Bible itself where the answers sufficed while I was a child, but didn't hold up to common sense in my mind as I got older. Then there's the fact that people across the world strongly believe in the religion they were taught with as much fervor as the people I knew. If I grew up in Iran, I'd have been Muslim. Most religious people follow the one their people follow, and all claim to have it the right way.
As for you second question, I'm not exactly sure what you mean. The Christian God is said to be loving, but it doesn't mesh with the fact that hell is eternal. Eternal torture for temporary sin. Everyone is this thread lives someone m no one would do they to someone they loved. Even if you punished someone you loved, it wouldn't be for literal eternity. If the God in the Bible is loving and hell is real, logic would dictate that this God would do whatever it took to make sure the people it loved wouldn't burn forever (even though it created the eternal burning place). To me, it makes no logical sense unless love ascribed to God isn't the same love we feel, and if that's the case, why call it love?
If it exists, I believe it can be good, evil, or indifferent. If it's evil, we're screwed regardless. If it's good, no one dies for eternity. If it's indifferent, what we think of it doesn't matter. If it wants us to know it's real and is as powerful as religions claim it is, there's nothing stopping it from letting someone know if they felt like that person should know. It's not like there aren't stories in the Bible where God literally talks to someone, or sends an angel to kick their ass and give them some colorful drip afterwards.
As for you second question, I'm not exactly sure what you mean. The Christian God is said to be loving, but it doesn't mesh with the fact that hell is eternal. Eternal torture for temporary sin. Everyone is this thread lives someone m no one would do they to someone they loved. Even if you punished someone you loved, it wouldn't be for literal eternity. If the God in the Bible is loving and hell is real, logic would dictate that this God would do whatever it took to make sure the people it loved wouldn't burn forever (even though it created the eternal burning place). To me, it makes no logical sense unless love ascribed to God isn't the same love we feel, and if that's the case, why call it love?
If it exists, I believe it can be good, evil, or indifferent. If it's evil, we're screwed regardless. If it's good, no one dies for eternity. If it's indifferent, what we think of it doesn't matter. If it wants us to know it's real and is as powerful as religions claim it is, there's nothing stopping it from letting someone know if they felt like that person should know. It's not like there aren't stories in the Bible where God literally talks to someone, or sends an angel to kick their ass and give them some colorful drip afterwards.
Spoiler!
When it is said to them, “Follow what Allah has revealed,” they reply, “No! We ˹only˺ follow what we found our forefathers practicing.” ˹Would they still do so,˺ even if their forefathers had ˹absolutely˺ no understanding or guidance? (2:170)
When it is said to them, “Come to Allah’s revelations and to the Messenger,” they reply, “What we found our forefathers practicing is good enough for us.” ˹Would they still do so,˺ even if their forefathers had absolutely no knowledge or guidance? (5:104)
I guess the questions about the God of the Bible, I would leave the Christians to answer this.
Is your position that say for example, I'm born Hindu and die as a Hindu and never learned about the Bible or Christ and never had a chance, I'd be doomed for hell? Even more extreme, say a remote tribe? Is that really fair? Is eternity fair for something non eternal?
Let me ask you another question though just to kind of make it fun. Let's agree the position that some God does exist and you yourself made the choice to not accept it and due to that, eternal damnation. Considering you had the choice and no one forced you, you knew the implications…should you blame anyone other than yourself?
From an Islamic perspective, Allah would never punish anyone until the message was delivered to them. If you are of age, mentally sane and not forced into believing, then you may be subject to accountability. There should be no compulsion to belief.
Have you read the Quran before (I promise I'm not converting you lol but just wondering).
Spoiler!
2:256
Let there be no compulsion in religion, for the truth stands out clearly from falsehood. So whoever renounces false gods and believes in Allah has certainly grasped the firmest, unfailing hand-hold. And Allah is All-Hearing, All-Knowing.
17:15
Whoever chooses to be guided, it is only for their own good. And whoever chooses to stray, it is only to their own loss. No soul burdened with sin will bear the burden of another. And We would never punish ˹a people˺ until We have sent a messenger ˹to warn them˺.
5:98
Know that Allah is severe in punishment and that He is All-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
I'll read later brother I'm out for now nice talking and exchanging points
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08-08-2024, 07:03 PM
#267
Originally Posted By WiseOldApe⏩
Yes, the Bible teaches lots of wonderful things. And as I said earlier that probably where the bulk of my religious reflection stems from these days. I’d also recommend checking out the book I linked in this thread. But a huge aspect of Christianity is forgiveness. And I think it’s a valuable teaching from it. So why would God create this illusion and then never forgive us for eternity if we fail at it? I could get past the not making sense part, because let’s face it, we’ll never fully comprehend God in these bodies anyway. But I can’t get past the part about torturing people for eternity. As I stated earlier,
In Christian theology we are taught that God is all good and all love. Why would anybody want to rebel against such a God? Out of evil. Satan rebelled and was cast out, since such a creature has no place in the Kingdom of Heaven, much like a serial killer has no place in society. Essentially, satan created his own reality which is a reflection of himself - hell. Those humans who join along with the rebellion end up the same.
The issue with sin isn't that 'you're allowed to do what you want', it's that sin affects everyone around you - it's not exactly God forcing people to behave a certain way, it's that without law and order, other people are not safe.
The issue with sin isn't that 'you're allowed to do what you want', it's that sin affects everyone around you - it's not exactly God forcing people to behave a certain way, it's that without law and order, other people are not safe.
I do think there is a realm of hell that people can enter and have heard accounts of people who’ve experienced it. I just don’t think it has to be for eternity, and I think even when someone enters it they can escape by simply turning to God. I don’t think God ever turns his back on us, only that humans can turn their back on him. But no matter when they turn back to him(even if it’s in hell) he will accept them.
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08-08-2024, 08:46 PM
#268
Originally Posted By SunnahAndSalaf⏩
Because people are easily deceived, the Bible is quite clear..and the Quran states the Bible is true which means the Quran is false
Lets connect the dots. Why aren't 2 billion Muslims doing this?
I asked for one single Isnad. None yet.
I asked a single Tafsir that says this. None yet.
It's like me quoting this and going to Christians and saying "Gotcha…see, Jesus is not God but a Prophet so the Quran is correct". What kinda nonsense would that be?
Matthew 21:10-11
10 When Jesus entered Jerusalem, the whole city was stirred and asked, “Who is this?”
11 The crowds answered, “This is Jesus, the prophet from Nazareth in Galilee.”
I asked for one single Isnad. None yet.
I asked a single Tafsir that says this. None yet.
It's like me quoting this and going to Christians and saying "Gotcha…see, Jesus is not God but a Prophet so the Quran is correct". What kinda nonsense would that be?
Matthew 21:10-11
10 When Jesus entered Jerusalem, the whole city was stirred and asked, “Who is this?”
11 The crowds answered, “This is Jesus, the prophet from Nazareth in Galilee.”
And yes..the Quran states it is easy to understand..
Allah says Quran is easy to understand (19.97)
"And We have indeed made the Qur’an easy to understand and remember; then is there anyone who will remember”
Quran 54:17
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08-08-2024, 09:25 PM
#269
Originally Posted By Muzzlrpress⏩
I was never really too Christian and I got into new age and hinduism and it's there that I learned that Jesus is real and is God. Anyway, good luck on your journey.
Questions about the Bible itself where the answers sufficed while I was a child, but didn't hold up to common sense in my mind as I got older. Then there's the fact that people across the world strongly believe in the religion they were taught with as much fervor as the people I knew. If I grew up in Iran, I'd have been Muslim. Most religious people follow the one their people follow, and all claim to have it the right way.
As for you second question, I'm not exactly sure what you mean. The Christian God is said to be loving, but it doesn't mesh with the fact that hell is eternal. Eternal torture for temporary sin. Everyone is this thread lives someone m no one would do they to someone they loved. Even if you punished someone you loved, it wouldn't be for literal eternity. If the God in the Bible is loving and hell is real, logic would dictate that this God would do whatever it took to make sure the people it loved wouldn't burn forever (even though it created the eternal burning place). To me, it makes no logical sense unless love ascribed to God isn't the same love we feel, and if that's the case, why call it love?
If it exists, I believe it can be good, evil, or indifferent. If it's evil, we're screwed regardless. If it's good, no one dies for eternity. If it's indifferent, what we think of it doesn't matter. If it wants us to know it's real and is as powerful as religions claim it is, there's nothing stopping it from letting someone know if they felt like that person should know. It's not like there aren't stories in the Bible where God literally talks to someone, or sends an angel to kick their ass and give them some colorful drip afterwards.
As for you second question, I'm not exactly sure what you mean. The Christian God is said to be loving, but it doesn't mesh with the fact that hell is eternal. Eternal torture for temporary sin. Everyone is this thread lives someone m no one would do they to someone they loved. Even if you punished someone you loved, it wouldn't be for literal eternity. If the God in the Bible is loving and hell is real, logic would dictate that this God would do whatever it took to make sure the people it loved wouldn't burn forever (even though it created the eternal burning place). To me, it makes no logical sense unless love ascribed to God isn't the same love we feel, and if that's the case, why call it love?
If it exists, I believe it can be good, evil, or indifferent. If it's evil, we're screwed regardless. If it's good, no one dies for eternity. If it's indifferent, what we think of it doesn't matter. If it wants us to know it's real and is as powerful as religions claim it is, there's nothing stopping it from letting someone know if they felt like that person should know. It's not like there aren't stories in the Bible where God literally talks to someone, or sends an angel to kick their ass and give them some colorful drip afterwards.
Originally Posted By jtaylor2010⏩
The way that I look at it is like the following. Humans are always trying to be better or they're becoming worse. For example, even atheist online notice 'something off' about watching porn and masturbating and are disgusted by promiscuity.
Yes, the Bible teaches lots of wonderful things. And as I said earlier that probably where the bulk of my religious reflection stems from these days. I’d also recommend checking out the book I linked in this thread. But a huge aspect of Christianity is forgiveness. And I think it’s a valuable teaching from it. So why would God create this illusion and then never forgive us for eternity if we fail at it? I could get past the not making sense part, because let’s face it, we’ll never fully comprehend God in these bodies anyway. But I can’t get past the part about torturing people for eternity. As I stated earlier,
I do think there is a realm of hell that people can enter and have heard accounts of people who’ve experienced it. I just don’t think it has to be for eternity, and I think even when someone enters it they can escape by simply turning to God. I don’t think God ever turns his back on us, only that humans can turn their back on him. But no matter when they turn back to him(even if it’s in hell) he will accept them.
I do think there is a realm of hell that people can enter and have heard accounts of people who’ve experienced it. I just don’t think it has to be for eternity, and I think even when someone enters it they can escape by simply turning to God. I don’t think God ever turns his back on us, only that humans can turn their back on him. But no matter when they turn back to him(even if it’s in hell) he will accept them.
Human beings are made in God's image and likeness, so when we do evil things, we know what we are doing - we always have a chance to repent and turn back from our sin to God.
Murderers, cheaters, liars, thiefs, adulterers, fornicators, homosexuals, etc, all know they are doing something wrong - if it was not wrong to be gay, why would homosexuals need to band together in 'pride' and 'celebrate' their sexulaitiy if it is 'OK' and normal?
The thing about Jesus is that He's always welcoming of sinners to turn their back on sin, repent, and live a noble life. Even the worst people prison can do this.
I don't know about you, but when I was living the 'do as thou wilt' lifestyle, I'd always have some sh*tty thing happen to me and deep down I knew it was a sign or punishment from God. Look at aids for example, it's almost exclusively a gay disease or one where people are sexual in despicable ways.
I don't believe there is a single adultere, fornicator or homosexual out there who is not being bombarded by signs and warnings from God to cease their behaviour.
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08-08-2024, 09:42 PM
#270
Originally Posted By Paul Kreul⏩
The verse, this is the issue when you simply read a translation and don't look at what the word in arabic means.
Because people are easily deceived, the Bible is quite clear..and the Quran states the Bible is true which means the Quran is false
And yes..the Quran states it is easy to understand..
Allah says Quran is easy to understand (19.97)
"And We have indeed made the Qur’an easy to understand and remember; then is there anyone who will remember”
Quran 54:17
And yes..the Quran states it is easy to understand..
Allah says Quran is easy to understand (19.97)
"And We have indeed made the Qur’an easy to understand and remember; then is there anyone who will remember”
Quran 54:17
If I go read the bible, I should have study bible too right?
The word in arabic is called "dhikr" for remember in this verse. It literally means easy to remember for reciting. As in, this book will be easy to be remembered (as in many people have memorized the entire thing and read it). You can Google the word dhikr for more if you want.
And I have this passaged memorized as well in Arabic.
I love how the Quran is in its pure Arabic so no one can come later and make this claim you just have. Go to anyone who speaks Arabic, who's studied the Quran just a little.
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