As Dom suggested, just play them on the piano. After you hear them on the piano, familiar songs will reveal themselves as to the mode.

As you know, all white keys are the key of C. Instead of thinking of it as C D E F G A B, think of it a 1 2 3 4 5 6 7. If the number has a flat or sharp in front of it, raise or lower the pitch to its respective black key.

Play 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 (C D E F G A B) first (C Major or C Ionian). Sing it.

Now play 1 2 3 #4 5 6 7 (Lydian). The difference between C Ionian and C Lydian is the F#. When soloing (or writing) in Lydian, the #4 is the note that makes it sound different than Ionian. If you listen to the Riddle by Steve Vai, the very first note with the melody is the #4 of the key he's in. By doing that, he sticks Lydian right in your face on the first note.

So you've played and sung 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 and 1 2 3 #4 5 6 7

Now do 1 2 3 4 5 6 b7 (Mixolydian). Like the Lydian mode, there is only one note that is different from the major scale, but this time it is the b7, so you'll play C D E F G A Bb.

Now play 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7 (Dorian). This has one note that is different from the Mixolydian mode - the b3.

Notice both the Mixolydian and Dorian modes have a b7, so the distinct difference between Dorian and Mixolydian is the b3.

Now play 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 (Aeolian). This has both the b3 and b7 that the Dorian mode has, but it also has a b6.

Now play 1 b2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 (Phrygian). The only difference between Aeolian, is this also has a b2.

Lastly, play 1 b2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7 (Locrian). The only difference between this and Phrygian, is this also has a b5.

So play and sing your modes on piano in this order to start:

1 2 3 4 5 6 7
1 2 3 #4 5 6 7
1 2 3 4 5 6 b7
1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7
1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7
1 b2 b3 4 5 b6 b7
1 b2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7

With each iteration, you are only changing one note. Spend significant time on each one, even write some melodies, singing all the pitches, noting the pitches that make it unique from the other similar modes.

After you've spent time on this then you can work pitch axis on the guitar.

The modes in chronological order are:

Ionian - 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 (major scale)
Dorian - 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7 (major scale with a b3, b7)
Phrygian - 1 b2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 (major scale with a b2, b3, b6, b7)
Lydian - 1 2 3 #4 5 6 7 (major scale with a #4)
Mixolydian - 1 2 3 4 5 6 b7 (major scale with a b7)
Aeolian - 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 (major scale with a b3, b6, b7; also known as natural minor or pure minor)
Locrian - 1 b2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7 (major scale with a b2, b3, b5, b6, b7)

But practice them in the order I listed them so you can easily recognize the single note differences as you go through each of them. If you want to harmonize each with its tonic chord, play the 1 3 5 7 pitches (use the appropriate flats when the mode changes) with your left hand and play the mode with your right hand.

I'll see if I can think of something to keep you going.

What skill level would you place yourself?….beginner, intermediate, advanced.
Are you more into mainly finger picking or rhythm playing?

I like lead stuff on electric, always a flat picker though. Currently working on building my finger picking skills on the acoustic.

i've been playing a long time, but definitely not advanced, I guess I'd fall into the intermediate range. I've always been a bedroom player, so not much time spent playing with others

Got it.

Shvt….forgot to ask, generally speaking, what genre do you prefer to play to?

I'd consider myself average to intermediate also.

When learning a new scale I think it's important to learn the chords that go with the scale.

Just learning the triads really ties it together for me

Whew boy that’s a thicc paragraph on modes. I’ve always kinda avoided modes I guess due to my inherent laziness.

Luckily I have a new piano and can utilize that to help groove the modes in my head.

Do you find yourself favoring certain modes over others? I feel like I’ve been playing the “Ionian” and the “Aeolian” scales without really knowing they’re Ionian/Aeolian?

You owe z4v4 at least a pack of strings for typing all that up.

As for favoring modes it comes down to the music you're playing. Question wasn't directed at me but the ones I use the least are Phrygian (not often) and Locrian (never). As I said a few posts back, you'll already be comfortable with major and minor, no one uses Locrian (just think m7b5 when you see it), which leaves 4 diatonic modes — Lydian, Mixolydian, Dorian, and Phrygian. In a rock context Mixolydian and Dorian get a lot of mileage even if many guitarists are mainly playing pentatonic licks.

What bignpisst said about learning the chords that go with a scale is on point. Look for chord progressions that are unique to each mode. For example when you see an (I) E major going to a (V) B minor chord, you should immediately hear Mixolydian. The b3rd (D) in the Bm chord instead of a D# (7th of major) is the giveaway. Em going to Amaj should instantly make you hear Dorian. The 3rd (C#) of that A chord is the 6th of Dorian. E minor scale on the other hand would have an Am (C b3 not C#, 3rd) chord. The list goes on.

No need to put pressure on yourself to try to learn this stuff overnight. Play the long game. Dedicate some time to ear training and theory in addition to everything else you work on and you'll be rewarded.

so many approaches to modes. I didn't read all the posts so I dont know if its mentioned, but I like to view dorian phrygian lydian mixo as one note away from either major or natural minor:

lydian (brighter) - raised 4th
ionian/major
mixolydian (darker) lowered 7th

dorian (brighter) raised 6th
aeolian/natural minor
phrygian (darker) lowered 2nd

locrian doesn't neatly fit the model

assuming you can already visualize the entire major and natural minor scales across the whole fretboard while improvising in any key, you only need to move 1 note 1 fret to shift into one of those modes.

I'm not downplaying the value of understanding how to derive all modes from the major scale, but when improvising, I often find it easier to "see" phrygian as "natural minor flat 2nd" instead of "major scale flat 2-3-6-7" for example.

But of course, learn ALL approaches to see the relationships from all angles

^^^

Yes, people tend to hate on Locrian because it kind of works contrarily to what our ears anticipate. It tends to sound like another scale that isn't quite finished. It defeats the idea that music needs to have a clear keynote. But that rule isn't set in stone, it's just our traditional European rules of harmony.

I feel like we're missing out by not using it more. It's like the black sheep with hidden and unique powers. Think of the rationale of free jazz, where you celebrate the incompleteness of the formal system.


Try using Locrian temporarily to sound really outside and weird and quickly shift back into a more regular sound. Throw the ear off for a second and come back to harmony. You hear Holdsworth do this a bit and it's one of his secrets to playing outside.

It'll give your playing a very idiosyncratic edge.

I sold all my acoustics but when I did post then I found that Metallica fade to black was awesome to do

I'm gonna just follow the Malmsteen approach of if it sounds good it is good, before even attempting to digest this post lol

A local guitar shop near me is having a 40% off sale tomorrow. This is for everything in store, no limit, must be paid in cash.


I don't really need anything but I feel like I have to take a look just because it's such a good deal. The only thing I don't have but kind of want is some sort of jazz guitar.


Please talk me out of going and spending money on stuff I don't need.

If one can play a major scale, modes are just superimposing a major scale over a chord that is not the tonic chord (e.g., G chord in the key of G) of the key. For example, playing a G major scale over an Am chord. This makes it A Dorian, but understanding the post I and others wrote out will make you see what the difference is between playing a G major scale and an A Dorian scale.

Yeah, as Dom stated, it depends on the context. In jazz, I'll tend to use modes that have some tension to them. Dorian over a minor7 chord has the natural 6th that creates a tritone between one of the chord tones, which creates tension. Aeolian doesn't have a tritone between a note in the chord to a note in the mode.

Haha, nice. Him actually taking the time to work on it is all that he owes me.

Well stated. Many people get overwhelmed and freeze rather than tacking just a little bit and adding on. You can only successfully climb to the top of a mountain by focusing on the boulder you're currently on.

For sure this is the best grouping method for modes when practicing a pitch axis improvisation. 3 major modes, 3 minor modes, and there is one alteration between a standard major scale and its two other major modes, and there is one alteration between natural minor and the other two minor modes, so the relevant difference is simple to isolate.

I see the multiple approaches as a process. To me the order is (with improvisation as the goal):

- learn formulaically what specific modes are (e.g., major scale with b7 for Mixolydian)

- learn what the relationship is between each mode and the major scale (e.g., Mixolydian is the 5th degree of a major scale)

- learn to shift a major scale pattern to superimpose it over a different chord (e.g., play a G major scale over an Am chord)

- learn to group the modes by tonal quality, as you outlined above with major and minor modes, and practice them in pitch axis format to focus on the specific differences between each group of major and minor modes

Depending on one's knowledge of the fingerboard and motivation, the first 3 steps can be done in a week and then you get to the white meat. I don't think any seasoned improviser (none that I know) thinks of Phrygian as major with a b2, b3, b6, b7 in a practical sense, but rather as a natural minor scale with a b2 since that is the unique difference and what gives Phrygian its sound.

Sorry man, but stuff like this is why rollerball rides your ass: "black sheep with hidden and unique powers," wtf is that shiit?

It's pretty much the scale played on mi7b5 chords before the 7b9 in a minor key, or the natural2 and natural6 Locrian variations.

You give no context. If a chord is a mi7b5, Locrian will sound inside. A Locrian mode over a ma7 is just a 1/2 step side-slip; a Locrian mode over a dom7 chord is the poor man's Altered Dominant scale.


List the solos with time stamp for when the secret occurs. He's probably using Altered Dominant.

Lol. Malmsteen knows everything in that post and outside of the b5, dude has never played a chromatic passing tone in his life.

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My comment about the "black sheep" seems more like you took issue with my vocabulary rather than an idea about guitar/music theory. Locrian does get hated on, are we not in agreement there?

I'm just saying if one wants to find a use for it, you could probably make a run to temporarily get an outside sound and quickly resolve to something the ear will anticipate. I'm not saying Holdsworth did exactly this with the locrian mode, I don't know if he ever did or not, but he did employ temporarily outside runs to throw the ear off before resolving.

The problem with Locrian is it's the only diatonic mode with no perfect 5th interval from root. Lydian and Locrian are a tritone apart — Lydian has a perfect 5th with a #4 and Locrian a perfect 4th with a b5. If you invert one you'll get the other. Lydian is WWWHWWH; Locrian HWWHWWW. They're polar opposites in terms of "brightest" and "darkest" when arranged in 5ths.

I prefer to just see it as a m7b5 with its upper extensions a major triad a half step up from root: b2/4/b6. If you can find a way to compose with it or build interesting lines for an extended period of time in a modal context, more power to you. I think when you're learning the modes it's better to put it aside and focus more on the remaining 6. With so many distractions today you really need to simplify these subjects as much as possible to give someone the best chance of learning them.

Anyway this gentleman gave composing in Locrian a shot.

I'm definitely trying to work on this stuff but to be honest I'm still working on the 3/4 note dorian soloing over the cmi vamp/that fusion recording. It's embarrassing to me that after all these years of playing I don't really know where the notes are on the fretboard.

I have to say I feel like I'm in a weird spot when it comes to guitar. My ear for guitar music (not my music theory ear) is super established and experience because I've just listened to SO MUCH guitar music and my physical guitar technique is at a really high level BUT obviously my improvisational ability, my theory knowledge, my understanding of how to play over changes, my chord knowledge, etc, is absolute nooby beginner DOG-CHIT.

It's very humbling and borderline frustrating but I'm determined to be become a fusion shredder.

There is no other option at this point for me imo other than to try become a fusion shredder or just quit guitar completely lol.

lmao

Don't do that mang. Keep doing what you enjoy. There's plenty of time to learn what z4v4 discussed.

Ha I'm just saying I've kind of reached a ceiling with my current skill set. I can pick virtually anything but I can't translate what it's in my head easily so it's retarded.

I think this is what turned into Modes: No More Mystery

I'm working through it now and found this that might be helpful for others:
https://www.modernguitarhub.com/fran...-lesson-notes/

It started as a lesson in Guitar Player magazine in the late 80s. He did that video a few years later. Today there's so much information on every topic, videos, you name it, most of it free, but back in the day articles like that were gold.

Spoiler!

This DVD is pretty awesome.

He's rocking leather pants and a Tweetie Bird shirt

His sweeping is epic.

What are your recommendations for the ultimate guitar theory book? All the nuances, bells and whistles etc. Back when I was playing seriously the Guitar Grimoire was all the rage, has something else come along since which has usurped it?

No idea!

I see guitar as an instrument/tool.

Theory is music, as we understand it, and spans all instruments.

I'm just a hack

+ rocking a rug

About 20 years ago he had a forum and someone made a comment about about him wearing a rug. He personally chimed in to confirm it and stopped wearing them after that.



His way of teaching modes immediately worked for me and got the ball rolling so I could develop my own way of looking at them that is even more personal. Once it's internalized you'll hopefully just see them much like you do colors. The music can be tonal but you'll instantly hear the sound of each mode over those chords so you can target their character at any given moment for something more interesting than chord tones.

You can also write music where the key is changing over a root (modal interchange/"pitch axis"), it could be Dorian for a few bars and then Lydian, but because you know those sounds so well you're not even looking at the fingerboard — your fingers will follow your ear. That's the best way I can describe it. Early on I couldn't understand how my favorite players could be improvising with their eyes shut but it makes sense now.

That's been coming together, slowly, over the last couple of months. I'm starting to hear the interval in my head and more or less automatically put my finger on the right note.

I also have Chop Builder and will digging into that soon!

I don't think it gets hated on - it's just that it's used over mi7b5 chords which is a chord that is almost never used statically so people don't need to worry about it much for a modal choice. There are better Locrian choices for jazz & fusion improvisation, like Super Locrian and Locrian N6.

As for the "It's like the black sheep with hidden and unique powers," the "issue" was that it's mumbo jumbo that implies you've come across a theory/application of Locrian that no one else has been able to discover since its inception during the medieval era. You then gave an ambiguous application of the mode while dropping Holdsworth's name, as if to lend it credibility.

I'm sure none of that was your intent, but if Locrian is as useful as you state it is, then you should be able to give clear examples and/or applications of its use. I already gave you one: use it over a dom7 chord as a cheater for people who haven't learned melodic minor yet.



And that piece highlights the difficulty with Locrian compositionally due to a half-diminished wanting to tonicize up to major or down to minor; in this example the tonic sounds Ebm to my ears.

Eh, you need to view it as you have some gaps that can be plugged pretty easily that will launch you into a new level of playing. You should feel enthusiasm about having a pretty clear path to that.

Since you already play Ionian and Aeolian without really thinking of it that way, once you get those modal exercises sorted and the notes on the neck, it will come together. It's like you're working on a 600 piece puzzle but can't see that you have joined four-150 piece sections together already and only have to put those four together to finish the puzzle.

Question for guitar players:


Was gonna write that up but it might have been too confusing so I made a video instead. I've wondered for awhile if different instruments sort of force you to think of theory very differently.

You can do it without singing but it's a good exercise to sing something before you play it. If you've ever watched George Benson he's often singing what he's playing / playing what he's singing. Building that kind of connection is such a powerful tool for improvising and composition.

2:55~

The puzzle piece analogy is encouraging, thanks brah. It's hard to see from my point of view but I will keep working on your theory instructions. At the very least I'm already much better at knowing where some of the notes are on the fretboard than before and I see a lot of value even in just that.

At the very least it's nice not to have to worry too much about the mechanics of playing and focus solely on the theoretical aspects as you mentioned before.