No, I don't need a sign to approach. I will, however, always make a goofy observation about our environment or what they/I am doing. That usually lets me know which direction things are going to progress in.

Every woman calibrates to a different level. You are not seeing the whole picture. It's the collective series of events that you are being judged on. I explained it to you very well in the PM. You had some sort of contact with her EVERY day for SIX days. You talk about 3-4 days being too much? How about you start with ONE.

Do you understand how ELO works? It's like that. You start at a baseline and everything you do either raises your value or lowers it. It NEVER stays the same. Let's say your starting baseline is 1000.

Start: 0 (1000)

Friday:+20 (1020)
Saturday: +80 (1100)
Sunday:-20 (1080)
Monday: -50 (1030)
Tuesday:-20 (1010)
Wednesday: -300 (710)

As you can see, you still had a positive ELO going into your date on Wednesday.

Now some woman may need you to work up to 1500, 2000, 2500, etc. The higher your ELO, the more wiggle room you have to "mess up" and her still be attracted to you.

^^^^^
Holy fck this

And this is coming from a guy who's been on 50+ online dates over the last couple years.

Can you meet amazing women online? Yes.

Is it as good as real life? Not a fcking chance.

Who the hell can HONESTLY argue that the instant chemistry and feel you have meeting someone in person is the same as online? How in the fck.......mind = blown

You sound like me, and in this case it's not a compliment (no self hate, no Vick hate)

I have a tendency to be too rigid in my approach to things and I can admit that. I also have a tendency to bluntly change what I think I want or don't want. Over the years, I've become a little more fluid in that sense and it's been a great help to me as a person and it's helped me grow to who I am.

I still think being rigid when it comes to putting up with bull**** is good. There's no reason to put up with garbage for no reason. But to be rigid about entire social circles, how you operate as a person, etc, just like that? Come on now. You're acting like a pendulum and you're swinging the complete opposite way from where you were. What's going to most likely happen is that you'll swing back a little towards center and find your resting place. This is called maturing as a man and we all do it. I'm doing it at 35 (the same as you will) and I remember also doing it at your age.

My only suggestion is to not be so rigid about this place in your life and treat it more like water slipping through the cracks as opposed to concrete filling them in. You'll find that equilibrium if you let yourself and don't force things into a neat little box. Not everything should be compartmentalized all the time. Take it from a guy who compartmentalizes everything and realizes it's not necessarily a good thing.

You got this **** cuzz. Also, spring time is going to be amazing, that's my guess. You'll be outside with the kids (I also coach kids age 14-18) and you'll be happy and beaming. People (women) will pick up on that and you'll find someone who's a match for you in that regard. (my opinion)

Vick I did get some really good responses in my thread about Michael Jackson.

Some days I just think to myself, what the hell have we done to ourselves as a society in order to think there are formulas for this sh!t? Everyone seems to be nuts nowadays and has no perception of what real relationships are. It's hard to put into words, but it's just crazy.

That's because meeting someone online is not natural. Think about how our parents, grandparents and great-grandparents met.

My experience of online dating back in the day when I was using it, was that I would get so many messages that it was overwhelming and honestly made me feel anxious. I couldn't open all of them and read them, so I could only pick based on the photo. So, it's all based on looks and of course I picked the most aesthetic ones. Then when I got to know these men, there were things about them that were huge turnoffs.

My parents met at college and they were all a part of the same group of friends, so there was that common interest. My grandparents also went to school together and their families were friends.

How do you replace that with swipe left/swipe right, and cheesy pickup lines from 10,000 White Knights?

Agreed. I almost think just getting rid of these apps altogether is the best way of filtering out the ones who aren't worth your time. Maybe it also says something about us men when we use them. In social situations, it's not my lack of confidence so much as just the fact that I'm overwhelmed by big groups of people and introverted. I don't see the value that others see when going out to meet a bunch of people you don't know, especially when alcohol is involved. And that's why I sometimes relapse onto apps like Bumble, just because it gets me talking to people, even though I know they are getting hit up by multiple dudes who have different intentions than I do.

What height are you Vick?

Good pics btw, bit douchbaggery but you look friendly and approachable which is key.

Received a text from a beta male years ago stating "I know I'm supposed to wait 3 days to text you, but I couldn't wait".

Sigh. That text did not increase interest.

I don't follow any rules. I do what feels right base on what I know about attraction and I also consider what she may be feeling emotionally. I don't text first after dates. I've never had to. I can't remember any recent woman I dated that she didn't text me within 30 minutes of parting ways or at least the next day. Most tell me what a great time they had. I reciprocate and just leave it at that and wait a few days to make some small talk to continue building attraction. Then wait a couple more to ask her out again.

How long until after you left her house did you text her? How do you know she wouldn't have texted you first if you gave her enough time? Think about it, if you had just waited until Monday night, she probably would have still facetimed you. You obviously left a good enough impression for that to happen. After she made first contact, THEN I would have felt she earned the right for me to ask her out again, but I would have waited to do that until Wednesday.

There's no perfect formula, but you HAVE to know that time makes the heart grow fonder. Time is your friend, not your enemy. You have to create that space for longing, ESPECIALLY if she doesn't. You wan't her to be sitting by her phone hope and wishing for your name to pop up, BEFORE it does.

Just thought I'd chime in on this and explain a bit more, I know you get it but this is for others.

Continually texting a girl is a huge turn-off for women for multiple reasons that feed back into one driver/imperative. It relates to evolution, what women look for in a mate and the concept of social proof in reinforcing that desire.

I'm sure most of you are familiar with the notion that a woman wants the alpha male as his genes represent the best chance for her offspring to survive. There are a lot of arguments and concepts as to what defines alpha, which I won't go into but I will just delve into how that relates to too much text and communication.

Whatever your definition of alpha, the core concept is that such a man is a good mating prospect and this is recognized by multiple women as it serve the same biological/evolutionary function for their offspring to succeed.

Therefore one of the ways in which a woman gauges the success or credentials of an alpha man is by how many other women find him attractive, have a crush on him or are chasing him. This falls into the social proof concept where her opinion of how attractive you are is reinforced by what her friends/co-workers/other women think of you and how many also find you attractive. If a large number of women think you're a catch then it means her opinion of you is right and it reinforces her desire to have you.

So if a man is considered a prize (alpha), then multiple women are interested in him which means he has multiple options on who he spends his time with, therefore she has to compete with others for his attention.

So if you are continually texting and contacting her, if you can't go a few days without contacting her or chasing her, the sub-communication of that behaviour is that there are no other competing females trying to get your attention - so her assessment of you as a prize worth having is undermined.

This ties into the scarcity mechanic and recommended behaviour, because it all ties into that underlying evolutionary evaluation that a man who is scarce with his attentions is like that way because he has multiple women trying to occupy his time, therefore he is a prize she has to win.

Try and always remember that women are competing more with other women than you are with any guy.

So although it only takes 2 minutes to send a couple of messages or say hello, the issue is not the time it takes you to do that it's the message it sends to her subconscious.

She wants to win over other women. If no one else is competing over the prize, then it can't be a prize because it's not scare enough to warrant competition.

OOOOOO....Daisy's in wuuuv

Good to hear things are going well!It's already game over if you say this boyo lol. Talk about something in your surroundings so it does not seem like a pick up initially.Its been explained a few times already; to make her wonder about you. If you like her back, if you have someone else, if you think she was hot, if you liked her personality. She is legit questioning everything about herself during this time and she HAS TO know where you stand lol.It's not that she will get put off, its that your odds are greater if you make her wonder about you/miss you. She is also wondering why you are so different than the other chumps. Don't be fooled, she ain't used to this type of behavior because desperate beta's are on it right away.IMO, the "formula" increases your probability for success. You either adapt or get left behind with mediocre/no results, simple.I was going to specifically comment on how I bet pondus never has to text after a first date lol. In my experiences, when the girls interest was not low, she always messaged me same night or next day. If her interest was high, she would usually message me everyday after meeting. If it was low to non existent, she would not message me. 8+'s will also sometimes not message even when they are interested but that's only because they are used to being chased/worshiped and are playing games.

I think this was a very good analysis on me, to be honest. I find myself doing that a lot. In my head, something is either "good" or "bad" and if it's bad then I just completely ignore it. I make changes on the fly and just sort of go by how I feel. Here is the problem though: that's just how I am and how I've always been, and I've had good success with that approach. I've stumbled upon some cool people, been some cool places, and done some cool things. I've also wasted a lot of time on people who haven't ever been worth it. But I guess what I am saying is that this is the only way I know how to live.

By now I have alienated every friend I had from my old gym. Only one of them (K) is contacting me nowadays and I don't even wanna talk to her. However, despite this, I feel a lot better. I cut off one of my old great friends recently because he went ghost on me since he got a girlfriend back in October. Nope, sorry bud, I'm gone. It's just the kind of person I am. If I feel like I am not getting what I want out of a relationship or a group, I remove that relationship or my group from my life swiftly. I don't bend the rules for anyone and I don't wait around. I know it was a quick change from how I usually am, but that's just how I operate I guess. Hell, since doing what I've done I've started to grow a beard and let my hair get long because I truly just don't give a fuuck anymore. It feels sort of nice.

Have I been happier since I made this change? I think so. Like I said, once springtime hits I truly don't care about much except riding my bike, taking walks, catching baseball games, going on walks at night, and just enjoying some time outside. I don't need anyone to do that. I don't need anyone now. But that realization makes me withdraw from most people and just want nothing to do with anyone.

I just don't think you're right, unfortunately. You're right about me, but I am doubting that I am going to find what I want to the point of not even giving it a chance anymore and focusing on other things. I guess we will just have to see how the next few weeks go. I do appreciate your presence in my thread and overall adventure.

One thing that is troubling me, though, is the complete 180 my behavior took a few weeks ago. I am cognizant of it, but it's still odd that it happened. I can't figure out what broke.It's technology 100%. Dick and pussy is practically on tap for most women and some men. Why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free? When that is what happens, that's when shiit becomes formulaic because it's predictable. That's the good part about technology and people: once they become predictable, they become formulaic.I am 5'8''.Texting her after the date as a man has to be the #1 cringiest move one can make. I love the last bit of your quote here. Time is always on the side of the man. Always.Preach! This is bang on.

I know, thank you bro. Its over now but we made it mane! We all will

Dare I ask James what the fight was over?

Sure, on Friday we hung out at her place and went to dinner, and she was just kind of being "off" and didnt really seem like she wanted me there. By the time we went to bed I got really pissed off and stormed out. The next day she canceled our plans to hangout and said she wanted some time by herself. Basically I knew that this was going to lead to her dumping me, so I reacted pretty strongly and told her we needed to talk and she refused. It just escalated from there.

It seems like nothing but she feels that I dont her respect her needs and choices and wants me gone

For the sake of argument, personal ads in newspapers/periodicals were common right back to the 1800's for people who weren't meeting a partner in their (limited) environment.

Likewise I know people whose grandmothers went to colonies like Oz on a ship to be matched up with single men there (there were vastly more males than females there obv.).

Point is, it's not entirely accurate to think absolutely all coupling up until recently was 'natural'.

In general; OLD works for some, not for others. I know happily married couples who met online. Everytime I watch house-hunting programmes there are couples (often older) who met online.
It is what you make of it. Whether it's luck or ... who knows.

Not one single mention of OP being as queer as a $3 bill on page 1.


The heck happened to this site?! lol


OP, you're a *******!




PS - glad things are well

I don't follow any rules either, however, it seems as though my intuition is OFF because of apparent lack of experience, or something like that. I don't have time for over analyzing stuff. I like to make quick decisions. Ideally - I want to reach a place where I can be in a normal state as my life and not have to analyze whether I should text a girl/when I should call etc. I am already there mentally with regards to my life in that I have my mission/time and don't fall for girls too easily or pine over one, but my calibration with women seems off, in that when I think I am not being needy, I Am actually being needy.This is exactly what is frustrating, as most men I know who fail with women are actually needy and pine over one girl too soon.

Are you gay or a female?

Masters degree for dating and relationships. They need one. I am a introvert, so I am phucked in today's world unless I can get a hold of a older women that doesn't mind playing teacher.

From what I've seen, an overwhelming majority of people are introverts so don't feel like you lost because of this. I would say like 90%. Due to social media, this will only get worse.

OK, regarding the whole date/texting discussion going on ITT...I am in favor of the man texting night of or next day post a fun 1st date. What I'm not in favoring of is texting daily, multiple times, until the next time you see each other. The former is showing interest in the immediate aftermath of a good date...almost like riding that wave into the shore. The latter is overkill and WILL turn off most people. Even now, my guy and me only text 2-3x a week, and majority of those texts revolve around weekly plans.

Granted, everyone has different communication styles and they fall on a wide ranging spectrum...almost like sex drives. Some people LOVE texting all day and being in contact with people from morn to night. Others can't stand it, and only text minimally. Like all things in life, it's about finding compatibility and balance. However, the *initial stages* are a critical time to build up interest, and overdoing your availability through too much contact can easily sabotage that.

--Below, I've quoted other posts pertaining to this topic & added my .02
Definitely true....patience is certainly a virtue in the early stages of the dating game.
Great and effective points...a little mystery is never a bad thing!
Preach. Actions > words

Use your texts succinctly to set up dates...that is more than enough to show your interest after the first few dates. For example,'Hey I had a great time the other night. I'd love to see you again, when are you free?'
--She responds, you pick day/time, then you wrap it up by saying,'Great, talk to you then!'And then make contact again on day of date, by reaching out to discuss place/timing, or confirm place/timing.

K.I.S.S./10
Have to agree the back to back texting wasn't the best move. You need to give some time in between those initial texts, so she has a reasonable window to reciprocate and show interest.
This is 100% true. No grey area here.
Agree when it comes to the beginning stages of dating.
Ok, you have to take into account that some women WILL wait for that first initial 'feedback' text from a guy post-date. I know I will, because I want the man to affirm that he had a good time on the date and is interested in seeing me again. Once we've established mutual interest, then our contact can become more balanced and both parties can initiate at a fairly equal ratio. Point being, women can be very interested post-date, but are simply waiting to hear from the guy first. And it has less to do w/games or 'worshipping', and more to do with fearing rejection and seeking that initial confirmation that he's into her.

Here is an example of being humorous and gain some attention from someone sitting by themselves. in your scenario ask her if the other seat is taken while looking at another table that has all the chairs used with a group of people chatting. If they say no then look at her sit down in it and ask her how she's doing. First she'll think you're going to snag the chair to sit with the grouped table, then she'll probably laugh at your cheeky move by sitting down and will likely carry on a conversation with you then you just go from there. Humor usually releases dopamine to put people at ease/relaxes their nerves. There are tons of different ways too. It is all trial and error and remember to be yourself don't be someone fake. Do not get discouraged brother.

Dude, just accept the following:

1. You want to be free and not over analyzing **** about women everytime - That's OK.
2. Women are driven by emotions and 50% of what they do is out of your control - That's OK too.

Why just don't you accept that things are as they are? Do you get mad at a cat for acting like a cat? Do you get mad at a baby acting like a baby?

Just accept that people (namely women) won't behave like you think they should. That's OK and part of growing up and learning. Accept everything and you'll be OK. Be truth to yourself and feel good about it.

Let me tell you another thing. Here in Misc everyone's fooling around with strategies and other crap like that, but when THAT girl appears (and there are many girls around you that will fill in this category) you will know that everything will flow smoothly and in no time you two people are having a LTR without even realizing it. There are no games when those women appear.

Last weekend my GF was telling me how our first dates were.

We were about to go to a concert which was cancelled. It was canceled, and I told her "well it was canceled but we'll go to a coffee anyway." So we did. She then said I didn't tell her anything for some days, and then I called her again and told her something in the lines off "hey, don't schedule anything for next weekend, we'll be spending a day at that beach you told me about where you used to go as a little kid". So we went, and that's when we kissed for the first time.

Another thing she told me is that in both times I called her to arrange those dates, I was eating at the same time. She told me that was kind of disrespectful, but she was attracted by the NGAF attitude.

After we first had sex, immediately I sent her an email in the next day with a music we both enjoyed. See, the flow was there, so no problem in emailing her the next day.

Lookin' in retrospect, I acted careless as ****, which in its way turned out to give her an alpha vibe. But in reality I was just a kid at the time and I didn't even know any of this **** about alphaness and all of this ****. Once again, the flow was there, and everything went smooth as **** without any games or strategies to win her.

Another thing is that I kept the relationship talk out of the table. She brought it. But it was so natural, I mean, we both knew we were BF and GF even without having to talk about it.

Stop over-rationalizing everything man. Go with the flow. You'll do OK. More women will come. The right woman will appear.

This is why the online thing is aids, it just creates unnatural clinginess in males. Biologically females are wired to be clingy it's okay then once they got their guy hooked they ease up on it. Males are wired to not be clingy but it seems the online dating has rewired men into being the clingy ones texting/messaging women daily, multiple times throughout the day and women then are taking the male roles. I am anti online dating completely and social media to a certain extent it's the slow down fall of the modern era, but every great Age comes to an end with the birth of a new one

Brah not sure if you read my thing correctly but if I initially meet a chick, I'm not gonna wait 3 days to text or call her. Usually always 1 day or at the most 2 but never 3 days. You're basically playing games at that point and me text/calling the next day actually sets me apart from the chumps that go by the 3 day rule. I can understand what you're saying if it was after a date but when you get the number....nah.

This is starting to sound like those ****g0ts that are mainstream because now its mainstream to be anti-mainstream, lol.

I see your point. If I thought I connected well with her then I would make her wait. If our first interaction was mehhh, yeah, I wont wait too long as she hasn't taken the bait yet.