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Forum » CCW holders never stop mass shootings . . . except when they do.
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Thread: CCW holders never stop mass shootings . . . except when they do.

post 1503609641 05-05-2017, 10:41 AM
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Originally Posted By HotCheetos⏩
Yes I will, not interested in legal trouble dealing with a loaded weapon...that isn't going to be a slap on the wrist. And if you do end up shooting someone you will be broke because whether you stopped an armed robber or not you will be sued in civil court easily. Yes better alive than broke, but say I accidentally print and the bartender sees it...yeah no thanks on taking that risk.
What would you be sued for?

Use of force and use of lethal force in self defense/defense of others aren't any different where Texas says you aren't responsible enough to carry a gun than they are in the rest of the state, and carrying in an off limits place is nothing another person can sue you for.
post 1503610411 05-05-2017, 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted By HotCheetos⏩
So you carry no matter where it is, legal or not? Serious question because I would not be comfortable doing that at all.
Primarily, I and many others who care, choose not to go places where it is illegal to carry. Getting drunk at a bar is not a critically important thing that my life must have.

But the real world isn't black and white, my point is that if a person were to choose to carry concealed where they aren't supposed to because of the odds/consequences of needing a gun and not having it being far more disastrous than the penalty for being in an off limits location, can't be the dumbest thing a person has ever heard (or whatever phrasing)
post 1503610451 05-05-2017, 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted By Farley1324⏩
What would you be sued for?

Use of force and use of lethal force in self defense/defense of others aren't any different where Texas says you aren't responsible enough to carry a gun than there are in the rest of the state, and carrying in an off limits place is nothing another person can sue you for.
Maybe it is different in Georgia, but the trainer for our course here in IL was very clear that if something is even remotely questionable you will get destroyed in court. So carrying in an off limits area and killing someone in that area seems like a lawyers dream.


And to follow up on the next post you made about avoiding places you cannot carry...here in IL there are tons of places you cannot carry so it severely limits anywhere you want to legally carry
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post 1503610861 05-05-2017, 10:49 AM
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Originally Posted By stfudonny⏩
well im in texas and have a ccw...been years since i took the class but im pretty sure thats the case. unfortunately, the guy will probably end up in court.
Texas Restriction on carry:

"For bars or a businesses that make 51 percent of their money from the sale of alcohol, all guns are banned – even if you have a concealed handgun license."
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post 1503611031 05-05-2017, 10:50 AM
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Originally Posted By HotCheetos⏩
Maybe it is different in Georgia, but the trainer for our course here in IL was very clear that if something is even remotely questionable you will get destroyed in court. So carrying in an off limits area and killing someone in that area seems like a lawyers dream.
Use of force/lethal force laws don't change because you are in a bar or at a football game or on a college campus or whatever, and not in Walmart.

If you use justified, lawful lethal force in self defense according to your state laws (as determined by others such as juries, not determined by you), then you were justified. Maybe a prosecutor will choose to go after you if it was an off limits place, just as maybe a prosecutor chooses to go after you if you are the wrong race or the person you shot is the wrong demographic, or maybe prosecute you if you have a Punisher logo engraved on your gun, but that's a bit of a rabbit hole

But you said sued in civil court. What? By whom and for what?
post 1503611571 05-05-2017, 10:54 AM
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Originally Posted By blumpkin415⏩
Depends on the state. Some states restrict it.

Here in Vermont, anyone can carry open or concealed without a permit. You can carry in bars, you can carry while drinking alcohol. Only places you can't carry are schools, courthouses, state buildings.

We have ZERO gun control, and we are also the safest state in the nation decades running.
If HB 1911 passes we'll get open or concealed permitless carry. We should have had it a long time ago and there's very little opposition to it so far.
post 1503611811 05-05-2017, 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted By Jesse_l_g⏩
I read something like 1 in 10 people in Texas carry. I would be surprised if it was 1 in 100 here in MN. Only 5% of people in MN have a permit and most people with a permit don't EDC.



Last September a CCW holder shot a Muslim who stabbed 10 people in MN at a mall I regularly go to.
The best one is probably the off duty reserve cop in his 60s that headshot 2 heavily armed muslims who were going to shoot up a mohamed cartoon event in TX
post 1503612031 05-05-2017, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted By Jesse_l_g⏩
I read something like 1 in 10 people in Texas carry.
You read incorrectly

The last time somebody dug out all the info for states like that,Texas was in the bottom 1/3 for % of population licensed to carry.You all have been brainwashed by the media and hollywood because they love to paint Texas as everybody having and carrying guns, but it's simply not so. Primary reason, your CHL is and for awhile has been far too difficult and expensive to get. Secondary reason, you can have a gun in your car without a license.

States like Indiana, South Dakota, Pennsylvania, Georgia, and others rank way ahead of Texas here.

And not even the top states are into 1/10 territory for HAVING a license, then you must factor that most license holders don't carry daily.
post 1503612361 05-05-2017, 11:01 AM
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post 1503612561 05-05-2017, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted By Farley1324⏩
Use of force/lethal force laws don't change because you are in a bar or at a football game or on a college campus or whatever, and not in Walmart.

If you use justified, lawful lethal force in self defense according to your state laws (as determined by others such as juries, not determined by you), then you were justified. Maybe a prosecutor will choose to go after you if it was an off limits place, just as maybe a prosecutor chooses to go after you if you are the wrong race or the person you shot is the wrong demographic, or maybe prosecute you if you have a Punisher logo engraved on your gun, but that's a bit of a rabbit hole

But you said sued in civil court. What? By whom and for what?
By the family of the criminal you killed, since the "burden of truth" or whatever they call it is not so difficult in a civil suit I would think it is much easier for them. I would also think (I honestly think our courts are screwed up enough to screw you on this) they could argue the criminal would still be alive had you followed the law, making "your fault" they are dead.

If people can sue mcdonalds for not having a warning label on their hot coffee, killing someone in an area you arent allowed to have a gun should worry you a lot I'd think? Maybe I am way off base here?
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post 1503612771 05-05-2017, 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted By .:Chris:.⏩
Happens more often, liberal media just choose not to publicize it.
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post 1503612881 05-05-2017, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted By HotCheetos⏩
By the family of the criminal you killed, since the "burden of truth" or whatever they call it is not so difficult in a civil suit I would think it is much easier for them. I would also think (I honestly think our courts are screwed up enough to screw you on this) they could argue the criminal would still be alive had you followed the law, making "your fault" they are dead.

If people can sue mcdonalds for not having a warning label on their hot coffee, killing someone in an area you arent allowed to have a gun should worry you a lot I'd think? Maybe I am way off base here?
The phrase you are looking for is "preponderance of the evidence", which is beyond a reasonable doubt in a criminal trial and >50%/more likely than not in civil court. You also may be thinking of a related phrase, the burden of proof, but generally in either a criminal or civil case the burden of proof is on the one bringing the charges (government/people/prosecution) or the one bringing the suit. The only time the burden of proof may be on you in a case like this is when self defense is an affirmative defense that you must put forth and actively prove, that would put a sort of burden of proof on you, but that would be the same regardless of whether it occurred somewhere off limits or not (the state you are in and its laws would dictate how that works)

But what are they going to sue you for? If the force you used was justified, it was justified. Being in an off limits location doesn't allow somebody to put you at reasonable fear of imminent serious bodily harm or death and not risk facing a lethal force defense. They can't say "I should be allowed to shoot/stab him and he can't shoot me because guns aren't allowed here", even in civil court, that's just not going to work.
post 1503613421 05-05-2017, 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted By Farley1324⏩
The phrase you are looking for is "preponderance of the evidence", which is beyond a reasonable doubt in a criminal trial and >50%/more likely than not in civil court. You also may be thinking of a related phrase, the burden of proof, but generally in either a criminal or civil case the burden of proof is on the one bringing the charges (government/people/prosecution) or the one bringing the suit. The only time the burden of proof may be on you in a case like this is when self defense is an affirmative defense that you must put forth and actively prove, that would put a sort of burden of proof on you, but that would be the same regardless of whether it occurred somewhere off limits or not.

But what are they going to sue you for? If the force you used was justified, it was justified. Being in an off limits location doesn't allow somebody to put you at reasonable fear of imminent serious bodily harm or death and not risk facing a lethal force defense. They can't say "I should be allowed to shoot/stab him and he can't shoot me because guns aren't allowed here", even in civil court, that's just not going to work.
About 10 years ago(???) there was a situation in a New Mexico Walmart or something...been a long time so I cant remember the details where someone saved another persons life by shooting a guy who was stabbing his ex girlfriend and the family of the person who was shot was taking the shooter to court. Really wish I could find the details on that.

Either way you always have good info and I really appreciate the willingness to share knowledge.
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post 1503613631 05-05-2017, 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted By HotCheetos⏩
Sucks here in IL you cant bring your CC into a bar, so this person would have been able to do whatever they wanted had this happened here.
No way, guns are illegal in bars in IL, so how the fuk would the perpetrator bring his inside?
post 1503614061 05-05-2017, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted By HotCheetos⏩
About 10 years ago(???) there was a situation in a New Mexico Walmart or something...been a long time so I cant remember the details where someone saved another persons life by shooting a guy who was stabbing his ex girlfriend and the family of the person who was shot was taking the shooter to court. Really wish I could find the details on that.

Either way you always have good info and I really appreciate the willingness to share knowledge.
Was it illegal to carry a gun in Walmart in their state at that time?

In some states it is possible for families of deceased to file a wrongful death suit (in other states, that is not allowed if shooter is justified/not charged criminally), and that is something you run the risk of any time you use force or lethal force against anybody, regardless of where you are.

Look back at OJ Simpson for an example of a time and place where not guilty criminally could sill be sued civil
post 1503614251 05-05-2017, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted By Farley1324⏩
Was it illegal to carry a gun in Walmart in their state at that time?

In some states it is possible for families of deceased to file a wrongful death suit (in other states, that is not allowed if shooter is justified/not charged criminally), and that is something you run the risk of any time you use force or lethal force against anybody, regardless of where you are.
Again the details are foggy, but I do believe it was illegal at the time to carry inside the walmart.
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post 1503615751 05-05-2017, 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted By MrBourbon⏩
Because Samaritans are an actual ethnic/religious group. The author is showing he means a figurative good samaritan, not an actual Samaritan.
Best thread: http://forum.obnoxiousbrutes.com/showthread.php?t=168274783
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post 1503616121 05-05-2017, 11:28 AM
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news not blowing up yet? i guess guy who saved lives was white cis gender male
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post 1503618241 05-05-2017, 11:43 AM
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post 1503621011 05-05-2017, 12:05 PM
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Originally Posted By stfudonny⏩
thought it was illegal to carry in a place that serves alcohol?
Originally Posted By veggie530⏩
Depends on your state. In CA you can carry in a place that serves alcohol but you can't drink. You can't carry in a bar (a place whose main business is selling alcohol).
Same for WI.
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post 1503621501 05-05-2017, 12:09 PM
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post 1503623031 05-05-2017, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted By Farley1324⏩
The phrase you are looking for is "preponderance of the evidence", which is beyond a reasonable doubt in a criminal trial and >50%/more likely than not in civil court. You also may be thinking of a related phrase, the burden of proof, but generally in either a criminal or civil case the burden of proof is on the one bringing the charges (government/people/prosecution) or the one bringing the suit. The only time the burden of proof may be on you in a case like this is when self defense is an affirmative defense that you must put forth and actively prove, that would put a sort of burden of proof on you, but that would be the same regardless of whether it occurred somewhere off limits or not (the state you are in and its laws would dictate how that works)

But what are they going to sue you for? If the force you used was justified, it was justified. Being in an off limits location doesn't allow somebody to put you at reasonable fear of imminent serious bodily harm or death and not risk facing a lethal force defense. They can't say "I should be allowed to shoot/stab him and he can't shoot me because guns aren't allowed here", even in civil court, that's just not going to work.
looks like weve got a classic farley vs <mfc poster> show down here , the misc regulars who are lurking this thread are in for a real treat.
post 1503623051 05-05-2017, 12:22 PM
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You're always against guns until you actually shoot one.

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post 1503623231 05-05-2017, 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted By Farley1324⏩
I suppose you haven't heard of Suzanna Hupp.

She left her gun in her car, in Texas, back when carrying a handgun was illegal there, because she wasn't 'allowed' to have it in the restaurant.

As a result of that decision she watched as both of her parents were murdered in front of her. That man shot 44 people, killing 24. Because the restaurant patrons followed the law while the criminal did not (imagine that, eh?)



*Technically I think she only watched her father get murdered as he rushed the shooter but was shot in the chest and killed, her mother was killed as Suzanna was running to escape and she probably didn't actually see the moment her mother died.
I dont know if you watched the video, but if I remember correctly, she describes what happens to her mother, and she definitely watched her mother die.
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post 1503629141 05-05-2017, 01:16 PM
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I have and will carry anywhere I want other than federal building and schools. If a stupid ass place like Starbucks or something has a sign up that says no guns, I simply won't go there, but I've never seen any such sign posted. Cases like Suzanna Hupp made my mind up on that.

Stores that put up signs that like are completely idiotic and only advertising that no one will resist.

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post 1503629771 05-05-2017, 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted By blumpkin415⏩
Well well well...
It happens far more often than people realize because it's given minimum to zero coverage by the generally anti gun media. When they do cover it, they often intentionally skew the facts to mislead people, like call a person a "security" guard and so forth when they were actually a civilian with CCW. Anything but admit armed civilians can and do stop various crimes against themselves and others, and cops too. Known of it happening via cop buddies and saw zero coverage by the local media. Knew one guy who helped the cops catch a serial bank robber by shooting a tire out, and again, zero media interest. A good read:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.554ffcee77e9

Any time you want to read latest examples of CCW holders not being victims, stories that may get a tiny blurb in a local news paper and little or nadda by the media, just go:

"Two people were sitting in a car in Venice, Ill., one morning after a Vietnam veteran had driven his friend home. Two thugs approached, one of whom pulled a gun in an attempted robbery. The veteran drew his own firearm and fired at both men, killing one. “Not only did he save himself, his friend and protect everyone around them, he may have saved another individual’s life if these people had continued to do this,” said Madison County State’s Attorney Tom Gibbons. (Belleville News-Democrat, Venice, IL, 2/4/17)"

More:

https://www.americanrifleman.org/the-armed-citizen
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post 1503629991 05-05-2017, 01:24 PM
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Originally Posted By dhawkeye1980⏩
Guy with a knife at Uni of Texas was stopped by a ccw holder the other day
Sauce? I didn't see any mention of that. Obviously media always plays it down or just ignores it.
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post 1503630181 05-05-2017, 01:25 PM
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[QUOTE=jfindon post_id=1503629141]I have and will carry anywhere I want other than federal building and schools. If a stupid ass place like Starbucks or something has a sign up that says no guns, I simply won't go there, but I've never seen any such sign posted. Cases like Suzanna Hupp made my mind up on that.

Stores that put up signs that like are completely idiotic and only advertising that no one will resist.

[youtube]fYL0yN110go[/yutube][/QUOTE]The other thing is...I'm pretty sure all they can do is ask you to leave. Fellow MFC law bruh confirm pls.
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post 1503630621 05-05-2017, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted By twovalvekid⏩
The other thing is...I'm pretty sure all they can do is ask you to leave. Fellow MFC law bruh confirm pls.
Yep, that's what I've heard.

By the way, can someone tell me how the **** a local establishment can undermine state law? I never understood that.
[]---[] Equipment Crew Member No.18

I HATE lightbulbs.
post 1503630891 05-05-2017, 01:30 PM
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#60
  1. LegDayLol
  2. Registered User
  1. LegDayLol
  2. Registered User
  3. Join Date: Feb 2017
  4. Age: 36
  5. Posts: 5,248
  6. Rep Power: 18084
Did anyone else read the thread title in Stan from American Dad's voice?
I identify as a chad with a jawline so chiseled it can cut diamond, don't assume my genetics

The best time to plant a tree is 20 years ago, the second best time in now
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