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Forum ยป ** Official Florida Shooting Endless Argument Thread **
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Thread: ** Official Florida Shooting Endless Argument Thread **

post 1543868911 02-15-2018, 06:59 AM
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Originally Posted By Farley1324⏩
Who would run the metal detectors?

Because people aren't willing to deal with metal detectors and the security screening required for thatbecause school shootings are so rareAND because you'd have to have armed guards there to enforce the screening. Simply having an armed guard or two, maybe a uniform SRO and then allow faculty/teachers/staff to legally carry, would be so much better than what we have now, without the expense and hassle and why-do-we-need-this feels of going through metal detectors like you're going into a courthouse
You have an answer for everything man. And to be honest some of your responses have been down right disrespectful.

If metal detectors prevent one less shooting a year, I think that will cover the cost alone
post 1543868991 02-15-2018, 07:00 AM
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Originally Posted By MichelleLnne⏩
What about volunteer vets to guard the schools?
A, there are a chit ton of schools
B. Vets need to make money too...
post 1543869121 02-15-2018, 07:02 AM
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Originally Posted By JUGGERNAUT1333⏩
I have to say I am against faculty carrying weapons. During a situation like this, the only difference maker is going to be someone who has a lengthy history of firearm/stressful situation experience. Giving a 30 year old math teacher a 8 week firearm course and trusting them to defend during a violent situation isn't comforting. Situations like that rely on instincts and training. If someone is going to be armed in the school it needs to be someone who knows what they are doing.
I see your point, which is why it will probably never happen.
Originally Posted By MichelleLnne⏩
What about volunteer vets to guard the schools?
Originally Posted By dhawkeye1980⏩
A, there are a chit ton of schools
B. Vets need to make money too...
This wouldn't be a bad idea and since they're volunteers technically they wouldn't have to be paid, right? Even though there are a lot of schools, there are also many vets who could volunteer in their communities/areas.
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post 1543869171 02-15-2018, 07:02 AM
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Originally Posted By Ikeman83⏩
One of the prerequisites for a rational discussion on public policy is understanding the actions you would have to take to effect a solution.

Let's consider "stopping school shootings by banning guns".

1. You would have to outlaw all guns. No grandfathering, no allowing some guns while disallowing others, you'd have to ban them all.
2. You'd have to go and get them, and you'd have to use armed teams of police to do so, from every house and place of business in the country. Every single one. Since there's no gun registry, you'd have to literally search every building in the United States, and you still wouldn't get them all. You'd have to violate the 2nd, 4th, and 5th Amendment rights of every single American.
3. You'd have to shoot the people who resisted, who would number tens of thousands if not millions. All of them. If they numbered in the millions, you'd be dealing with a civil war.
4. After your civil war, with millions dead, atrocities surely committed, and our society literally in ashes, you'd have to put the pieces back together.

If you don't want to do all that, you have two alternatives:

1. Recognize that you live in a country with 300 mn people and 400 mn guns and accept that some of those 300 mn people are bad. Avoid creating large concentrations of defenseless victims by actually letting people be armed in public and/or having law enforcement where there are large concentrations of such defenseless people.

2. Stick your head in the sand on the issue and only take it out to cry about how America "needs" gun control.
Highly considering to make this my ******** post.

Only thing I would change is that it wont take millions to start a civil war. If the government announces complete gun control/ banning guns, that right there is the fire starter for the civil war..

Nice post. repped.
post 1543869231 02-15-2018, 07:03 AM
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Originally Posted By GotNext⏩
So what did we learn?
1. There are more guns in America
2. Very few people hold a lot of those guns
3. Gun ownership (both per household and per individual) is decreasing
4. ... as you mentioned ... so is gun homicide. Oh, what a coincidence.Less gun owners, less gun homicides.Funny how that works, eh?
so things are improving...
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post 1543869291 02-15-2018, 07:03 AM
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Originally Posted By GotNext⏩
Option A: you don't fully grasp what you were posting or just repeated what you saw in your virtual echo chamber

Option B: you fully well know how dishonest that graph is, and still posted it just to win an argument, hoping no one notices

I really hope its Option A, because ignorance can be forgiven if its not malicious.

Here is a properly referenced piece of statistic:



Ok, so the amount of guns has indeed gone up.

However, this does not mean more people have more guns:



In fact, less and less households and individuals own guns, whic his a better correlation to the decrease in the gun homicide rate:



So what did we learn?
1. There are more guns in America
2. Very few people hold a lot of those guns
3. Gun ownership (both per household and per individual) is decreasing
4. ... as you mentioned ... so is gun homicide. Oh, what a coincidence.Less gun owners, less gun homicides.Funny how that works, eh?
Wrong again boyo gun ownership is increasing in households and ccw holders have increased


https://www.google.com/amp/www.foxne...ut-it.amp.html

You liberals will stick your head in the ground and lie about anything
post 1543869311 02-15-2018, 07:04 AM
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Originally Posted By AltarOfPlagues⏩
so things are improving...
Yes, thanks to less people owning guns.
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post 1543869341 02-15-2018, 07:05 AM
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Originally Posted By dhawkeye1980⏩
A, there are a chit ton of schools
B. Vets need to make money too...
well they would be volunteering, and it wouldn't have to be anywhere near full time. Plus some schools can afford extra protection on their own.
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post 1543869411 02-15-2018, 07:06 AM
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Originally Posted By MichelleLnne⏩
What about volunteer vets to guard the schools?
many many schools across this country can hardly afford activities, teachers, bus transportation...they simply cannot fund it. it's an idea many have had. it sounds great but it hasnt happened because this country simply doesnt care about education like it should. would love to see jobs created, safety added to schools...but just remember, many schools can hardly help kids anymore.
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post 1543869451 02-15-2018, 07:06 AM
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Originally Posted By MichelleLnne⏩
What about volunteer vets to guard the schools?
Better idea for sure, finding enough volunteers would be hard most likely. Regardless my point is that it needs to be a person who is highly trained. Putting an armed teacher in a school shooting situation with minimal firearm training would be a disaster.
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post 1543869481 02-15-2018, 07:06 AM
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Originally Posted By GotNext⏩
Yes, thanks to less people owning guns.
Except you are wrong
post 1543869581 02-15-2018, 07:08 AM
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Originally Posted By GotNext⏩
Yes, thanks to less people owning guns.
pretty good then. prettayyy pretttayyyy
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post 1543869591 02-15-2018, 07:08 AM
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retarded american society + guns

whaddya expect?
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post 1543869691 02-15-2018, 07:10 AM
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Originally Posted By JUGGERNAUT1333⏩
Better idea for sure, finding enough volunteers would be hard most likely. Regardless my point is that it needs to be a person who is highly trained. Putting an armed teacher in a school shooting situation with minimal firearm training would be a disaster.
Michelle's idea had me wondering: couldn't local police departments post 2 officers at their local school on rotating basis for a few hours? Maybe even a combination of voluteer vets and officers? i can see how this could be a challenge in larger cities, but still if it prevents school shootings anywhere else it would be worth it in my opinion.
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post 1543869731 02-15-2018, 07:10 AM
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Originally Posted By Ikeman83⏩
One of the prerequisites for a rational discussion on public policy is understanding the actions you would have to take to effect a solution.

Let's consider "stopping school shootings by banning guns".
ur strawmanning by picking an impossible solution btw.

my kid brother is 11b and used to sell guns and he is kinda on the fence. sometimes cats would come in and buy guns and could not read and write. i feel like maybe you should be able to read before you can walk into dicks and buy a bushmaster.

im not totally sold, and constitutionalists will say your ability to buy a firearm readily is more fundamental and forcing people to be able to read is like, gun ownership disenfranchisement.
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post 1543869741 02-15-2018, 07:11 AM
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Originally Posted By dhawkeye1980⏩
Wrong again boyo gun ownership is increasing in households and ccw holders have increased


https://www.google.com/amp/www.foxne...ut-it.amp.html

You liberals will stick your head in the ground and lie about anything
In statistics we don't look at a slice of data (year-to-year), but overall trend and look for causes in anomalies. Look at the graph I posted above, do you notice a pattern of brief increase/peaks? That correlated to the pre-election cycle in the US, where the NRA and lobby groups constantly tell us that the guns will be taken away by democrats, so people start to get permits and guns "just in case they can't any longer". Fear-mongering works as a sales pitch, what can I say?

What happens when that election fear is gone? Well:



Like it or not: conservatives and gun owners are the most scared and most easily manipulated group (by fear). They say "know your customer" and the gun industry certainly does.
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post 1543869831 02-15-2018, 07:12 AM
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Originally Posted By lolXlol⏩
man, white people especially the males are so fragile, people say it as a joke but this being the white man's world and rest of us just living in it isn't far from the truth and even then your people still get triggered and go ballistic so often

can you imagine what these guys would do if they were born as deathniks and actually had to suffer through life? fking yikes
I'm just quoting you out of pity. Your trolling is so pathetic that it's laughable - make me laugh, puppet, and dance to my lute.
Originally Posted By MichelleLnne⏩
I can not believe they allowed this kid to go into that school. Fukn bs, had him going to school with a clear plastic bag because they already were suspicious about the **** he might bring in. I'm going to become one of those parents where I'm going to go around screaming "something must be done" kinda funny but i'm serious. They need people that can be armed and ready to pull the trigger when needed, guarding schools.
I can't believe how few people in this thread have actually read it, and that it's already turning into a fukking chat thread. Again, this kid had problems, and his teachers/school administration reported him to the local sheriff's office. He was being investigated by the sheriff's office. He had posts online saying: "I whana shoot people...", and "I wanna die fighting a chit ton of people", and "I am going to kill law enforcement one day they go after the good people".

It's too bad this thread was manipulated into a lot of gun talk when the fact of the matter is that local enforcement should have done something about this sooner - questioned him, and potentially taken his guns away. I am very much pro guns, but all the communities I know of have a lot more respect for guns than to flaunt them in a violent manner while talking (publicly) about wanting to kill law enforcement officers. This kid was a nut, local authorities knew he was a nut - here's the missing part that barely anyone (in this thread) is talking about. And it's the most important part in terms of prevention in the future.
Originally Posted By VoxExMachina⏩
The best part of these threads is negging foreigners who love to give lectures.
I caught a few Aussies who kept trying to make this only a 'lol y u need guns do' thread. It felt good.
post 1543869891 02-15-2018, 07:12 AM
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Originally Posted By Jax05⏩
Not sure what you mean who would run them?

And yes, obviously armed guards to enforce the screenings. I'm not against faculty carrying, but with how things are that's not going to happen.
Literally just what I said, who would run them. If you are going to hire enough armed guards to run metal detectors at every entrance, for every person who goes in, every time, school hours and non school hours and extra curriculars and registration, everything (you'd need to or somebody could bring a gun in whenever and just stick it in locker etc), you might as well just have a couple armed guards on site roaming the school and be basically as well prepared without the expensive of metal detectors and without the burden of having to go through security which is a big PITA and a setting few are willing to deal with given the very low odds
post 1543869951 02-15-2018, 07:13 AM
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Originally Posted By pellekuling⏩
Many decades ago in poor countries where people had no education and didint know any better. When did the american or western goverment genoicde its own people? You can say the jews. But they werent really considered germans. And if someone said, lets put all texans in a camp and starve them. You dont think the americanpeople would be like โ€wtf, ofc we wont do thatโ€ especially now that everything ois โ€literally hitler!!โ€
Oh, it hasn't happened, you claim, for decades (that's wrong but whatever), therefore it can't ever happen again.

Such ignorance is astounding
post 1543869961 02-15-2018, 07:13 AM
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Originally Posted By Jax05⏩
Michelle's idea had me wondering: couldn't local police departments post 2 officers at their local school on rotating basis for a few hours? Maybe even a combination of voluteer vets and officers? i can see how this could be a challenge in larger cities, but still if it prevents school shootings anywhere else it would be worth it in my opinion.
Not enough resources, time or money.

Most police departments have barely enough officers to put on the road.
post 1543870001 02-15-2018, 07:14 AM
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Originally Posted By Jax05⏩
Michelle's idea had me wondering: couldn't local police departments post 2 officers at their local school on rotating basis for a few hours? i can see how this could be a challenge in larger cities, but still if it prevents school shootings anywhere else it would be worth it in my opinion.
Probably another topic for another post. idea sounds great but you have to remember the #1 issue when it comes to any of these things. Money. who's funding it, who's going to pay for full time protection in the schools. Did parkland elementary not have 2 on duty officers and this still happened ? i could be wrong but 2 people patrolling a large school/campus will not totally prevent anything. may help keep the violence from being a larger count but so many factors are involved.

the best thing we could do is to push our local gov't to find a way to keep kids safe in school and on the way to and from school. really, education in general in this country needs re-hauled.
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post 1543870131 02-15-2018, 07:16 AM
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Originally Posted By JUGGERNAUT1333⏩
I have to say I am against faculty carrying weapons.
Why? Regular people are lawfully armed all over the place all day every day and in many states have been for decades. It works.
Originally Posted By JUGGERNAUT1333⏩
During a situation like this, the only difference maker is going to be someone who has a lengthy history of firearm/stressful situation experience.
Bull****
Originally Posted By JUGGERNAUT1333⏩
Giving a 30 year old math teacher a 8 week firearm course and trusting them to defend during a violent situation isn't comforting. Situations like that rely on instincts and training. If someone is going to be armed in the school it needs to be someone who knows what they are doing.
What is with this "Giving" thing? Nobody is talking about just "giving" a gun to the teachers, people are talking about lifting the retarded restrictions that prevent law abiding folks who can carry a gun about everywhere else so that they can also carry while on school property.

The idea that a teacher being able to shoot back is a bad thing is just so stupid I cannot comprehend how you legitimately think this way.

I mean, you literally prefer that faculty and teachers sacrifice themselves as human shields standing in front of the bullets vs being able to shoot back. What is wrong with you?
post 1543870181 02-15-2018, 07:16 AM
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Originally Posted By GotNext⏩
In statistics we don't look at a slice of data (year-to-year), but overall trend and look for causes in anomalies. Look at the graph I posted above, do you notice a pattern of brief increase/peaks? That correlated to the pre-election cycle in the US, where the NRA and lobby groups constantly tell us that the guns will be taken away by democrats, so people start to get permits and guns "just in case they can't any longer". Fear-mongering works as a sales pitch, what can I say?

What happens when that election fear is gone? Well:



Like it or not: conservatives and gun owners are the most scared and most easily manipulated group (by fear). They say "know your customer" and the gun industry certainly does.
Wrong again CA just did another AR ba n and i know people who work in gun shops had just as many non gun people coming in to panic buy an AR before the ban. Many had no clue what an AR was
post 1543870251 02-15-2018, 07:17 AM
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Veteran unemployment is something like 4x that of the national average. Many vets have extensive firearm and security training. We can employ a lot of vets as SRO's and let the fed govt subsidize it. My kids' schools have one armed SRO per school and those officers are provided by the local police dept. It's time.

Most schools are soft targets and part of the reason why these psychos go into them and shoot.
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post 1543870261 02-15-2018, 07:17 AM
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Originally Posted By FFailed⏩
It sounded like to me he was referring to people legally purchasing a gun that end up on the streets later on. Its not like its hard to buy a gun if you live in Chicago as long as you aren't a criminal. Everyone always says how strict the gun laws are in Chicago or even in IL including myself but mainly because I'm just salty my buddy in NC gets to own SBR's and Silencers. When you think about it though are they really that strict?
No, IL is not that strict, not any more. But Chicago kind of is and lawful gun ownership in Chicago is very low, yet, what do you know, the criminals still criminal.
post 1543870271 02-15-2018, 07:17 AM
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Originally Posted By Jax05⏩
Michelle's idea had me wondering: couldn't local police departments post 2 officers at their local school on rotating basis for a few hours? Maybe even a combination of voluteer vets and officers? i can see how this could be a challenge in larger cities, but still if it prevents school shootings anywhere else it would be worth it in my opinion.
I'm in full agreement with you, but when you consider the number of schools, and the number of people required to fill the positions it would be very difficult to achieve. I'd say at a minimal you'd need two armed guards at a school. If a shooter is planning something, and there is only one guard....guess who his first target will be..... there needs to be a second person.

I'm just speaking from a "real life" perspective here. It's a great idea, but without the government funding it, there is no way it can happen.
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Not sure if someone already mentioned this, but we need to allow the school districts to start teach youngsters everything about weapon gun safety and weapon handling AND teachers / staff needs to start carrying. A good guy with a gun can stop a bad guy with a gun. Gun Control cannot stop a killer form carrying out their agenda.

Gun Control only disarms the good guys..
post 1543870361 02-15-2018, 07:19 AM
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Originally Posted By dhawkeye1980⏩
i know people who work in gun shops
Well, my statistics obviously can't beat your anecdotal evidence. You win, congratz. I'll see myself out, and good luck (srs).

P.s.: your example actually supports my point that people buy based on irrational fear, not out of actual necessity - you may just as well purchase an "Anti-Alien-Invasion insurance"
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post 1543870651 02-15-2018, 07:21 AM
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#899
  1. Farley1324
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  1. Farley1324
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Originally Posted By OSUBBall23⏩
You have an answer for everything man. And to be honest some of your responses have been down right disrespectful.

If metal detectors prevent one less shooting a year, I think that will cover the cost alone
This isn't my first, or second, or tenth rodeo...I do have an answer or response to all of this because I've heard the same crap many times now.

Opportunity cost. The expense to install metal detectors at every entrance to every school in the country and man them with armed guards at all times, screening every single person who goes in, ever, would be astronomical. That kind of expense could accomplish more doing other things.

Additionally, few people buy that "If it saves just one___" logic for doing things. A nationwide 50 MPH speed limit would save a metric **** ton of lives each year, but nobody would do that, they don't want to be inconvenienced by having to drive slower. Likewise, people don't want the inconvenience (and feels) of going through a TSA checkpoint every time they go into a school building.
post 1543870761 02-15-2018, 07:23 AM
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#900
  1. anonymous
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Originally Posted By JUGGERNAUT1333⏩
I'm in full agreement with you, but when you consider the number of schools, and the number of people required to fill the positions it would be very difficult to achieve. I'd say at a minimal you'd need two armed guards at a school. If a shooter is planning something, and there is only one guard....guess who his first target will be..... there needs to be a second person.

I'm just speaking from a "real life" perspective here. It's a great idea, but without the government funding it, there is no way it can happen.
Actually they tried that at a highschool in Toronto last year, is was going great UNTIL one black girl complained that she felt unsafe that cops were present and that it was racist that cops were at the highschool. Black lives matter jumped on the issue agreeing with the girl and held protests at city hall to remove the cops from the highschools, and they were successful.

So no more cops in highschools.

This is what victim mentality brings us, SAD!
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