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Forum » ** Official Florida Shooting Endless Argument Thread **
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Thread: ** Official Florida Shooting Endless Argument Thread **

post 1543936711 02-15-2018, 06:18 PM
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#1291
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Originally Posted By Farley1324⏩
lol please don't try to act serious about no virgins and no FA's being allowed to have guns
not sure what you're saying?
Originally Posted By Ikeman83⏩
How do you determine who is "at risk"?

What happens to those people?

Do they go to prison?

There are 400 mn guns in the United States. There are an infinite number of other, effective means to kill people.

I think that anyone you wouldn't hand a gun to doesn't belong free in our society. I think that basic gun competence should be taught in schools (How to not shoot yourself, not marksmanship) and that we need to start removing from our society people who are too dangerous to possess arms.
If the kid went to school with a knife instead less children would be dead right now. You don't think it's an issue that mentally deranged school-aged kids can easily get their hands on these weapons and murder dozens of people as a result?

Maybe you have good reasons but I just can't understand the logic behind that part of your stance. Couldn't agree more about the removing these people from society though. Society in general is all way too lenient.

But it doesn't make any sense to just say "oh well we should remove unfit people from society anyway so for now we won't bother trying to restrict mentally unstable peoples' access to guns until we can do that". That makes no sense
post 1543936781 02-15-2018, 06:20 PM
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Originally Posted By SwayWay⏩
My point is a car is harder to rent than buying a damn AR-15 for a kid. That makes no sense to me. I wonder if you would have such a dogmatic stance if you were a parent in a situation like now in FL. And if you have any answer besides no we can't make it harder to get semi automatics.
The entity that owns the car that is worth tens of thousands of dollars has a lot of money driving away with that "kid" (adult). And do you really want to get into the deaths, injuries, and property damage$ done with vehicles each year in the US? Is there a background check to rent the car as there would be at an FFL for a rifle?

Ignoring everything else wrong with your post, let's focus on your suggestion.

Be specific. What do you propose to make it harder to obtain semi automatic firearms? What result do you expect from it?
post 1543936811 02-15-2018, 06:20 PM
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Originally Posted By SwayWay⏩
My point is a car is harder to rent than buying a damn AR-15 for a kid. That makes no sense to me. I wonder if you would have such a dogmatic stance if you were a parent in a situation like now in FL. And if you have any answer besides no we can't make it harder to get semi automatics.
The difference in accessibility is due to the differing cost & value, not perceived danger
post 1543936971 02-15-2018, 06:21 PM
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Originally Posted By TheJediBrah⏩
If the kid went to school with a knife instead less children would be dead right now. You don't think it's an issue that mentally deranged school-aged kids can easily get their hands on these weapons and murder dozens of people as a result?

Maybe you have good reasons but I just can't understand the logic behind that part of your stance. Couldn't agree more about the removing these people from society though. Society in general is all way too lenient.

But it doesn't make any sense to just say "oh well we should remove unfit people from society anyway so for now we won't bother trying to restrict mentally unstable peoples' access to guns until we can do that". That makes no sense
He's 19. He's an adult. Even if we were to make up "school-aged kids", it would not include 19 year olds.

That term you used..."mentally deranged"...can you define it, quantify it, tell us who diagnosed this guy as mentally deranged, what database he went into? That didn't happen? Can you tell us who was supposed to diagnose him and what was supposed to happen then?

You could do the same for "mentally unstable". What does that mean? Who determines it? Then what?
post 1543937271 02-15-2018, 06:25 PM
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Originally Posted By dhawkeye1980⏩
You forgot no registered democrats
The key
post 1543937401 02-15-2018, 06:26 PM
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Originally Posted By Farley1324⏩
He's 19. He's an adult. Even if we were to make up "school-aged kids", it would not include 19 year olds.

That term you used..."mentally deranged"...can you define it, quantify it, tell us who diagnosed this guy as mentally deranged, what database he went into? That didn't happen? Can you tell us who was supposed to diagnose him and what was supposed to happen then?

You could do the same for "mentally unstable". What does that mean? Who determines it? Then what?
Why are you asking me? Were restrictions to be put in place there would be plenty of professionals who would set criteria for these definitions and restrictions, of which I am not one. Asking me these questions that I'm clearly not going to have any idea of as if it somehow invalidates the common sense behind my suggestion is asinine.
post 1543937601 02-15-2018, 06:29 PM
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Originally Posted By SwayWay⏩
My point is a car is harder to rent than buying a damn AR-15 for a kid. That makes no sense to me. I wonder if you would have such a dogmatic stance if you were a parent in a situation like now in FL. And if you have any answer besides no we can't make it harder to get semi automatics.
The metric here isn't the subjective pain that one would feel in the same situation but whether, long term, banning guns will change factors that promote school shootings. The idea that banning guns will mitigate the underlying factors is moronic. The motivations will simply seek a different vessel to manifest themselves through.
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post 1543937651 02-15-2018, 06:30 PM
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Originally Posted By TheJediBrah⏩
Why are you asking me? Were restrictions to be put in place there would be plenty of professionals who would set criteria for these definitions and restrictions, of which I am not one. Asking me these questions that I'm clearly not going to have any idea of as if it somehow invalidates the common sense behind my suggestion is asinine.
Because you said

"YIf the kid went to school with a knife instead less children would be dead right now. You don't think it's an issue that mentally deranged school-aged kids can easily get their hands on these weapons and murder dozens of people as a result?

Maybe you have good reasons but I just can't understand the logic behind that part of your stance. Couldn't agree more about the removing these people from society though. Society in general is all way too lenient.

But it doesn't make any sense to just say "oh well we should remove unfit people from society anyway so for now we won't bother trying to restrict mentally unstable peoples' access to guns until we can do that". That makes no sense"


So, I say


He's 19. He's an adult. Even if we were to make up "school-aged kids", it would not include 19 year olds.

That term you used..."mentally deranged"...can you define it, quantify it, tell us who diagnosed this guy as mentally deranged, what database he went into? That didn't happen? Can you tell us who was supposed to diagnose him and what was supposed to happen then?

You could do the same for "mentally unstable". What does that mean? Who determines it? Then what?



And no, we sure as hell don't give the politicians and the government and the powerful who won't be limited by any of this free reign to make up rules saying a great portion of the country suddenly can't have a gun
post 1543937951 02-15-2018, 06:33 PM
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Farley giving everybody ITT bloated UP2.0 bellies


dat feel
6 scoops of xf up2.0 a day
post 1543938161 02-15-2018, 06:37 PM
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Originally Posted By fishnbrah⏩
were the teachers armed in 1999?
no there was a fuken armed cop who engaged them and it did nothing
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post 1543938271 02-15-2018, 06:38 PM
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Originally Posted By TheJediBrah⏩
Why are you asking me? Were restrictions to be put in place there would be plenty of professionals who would set criteria for these definitions and restrictions, of which I am not one. Asking me these questions that I'm clearly not going to have any idea of as if it somehow invalidates the common sense behind my suggestion is asinine.
Look at the DSM-5 and tell me how many different mental illnesses you could self diagnose according to "professional standards".

There is a symmetric relationship between complexity and lack of trust in "professionals".
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post 1543938311 02-15-2018, 06:38 PM
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Originally Posted By Vexidi⏩
It's not the guns. The guns have always been around. It's the fuked up modern America we've built where people are put under intense pressure constantly and you get run over if you don't bust ass to keep up. Parents are creating drug addicts at an early age all over the country and spending less time with their kids teaching them how to be normal fuking humans. Take away the guns and you'll still have a societal problem. Maybe they'll use a knife or a bat and fewer people will die but the problem will continue to grow. Stricter gun control is like putting a band aid on a leaking dam.
oh take that **** elsewhere. I’ve traveled the world and lived in Europe. Kids in Europe are the same here
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post 1543938661 02-15-2018, 06:42 PM
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Originally Posted By Farley1324⏩
Because you said

"YIf the kid went to school with a knife instead less children would be dead right now. You don't think it's an issue that mentally deranged school-aged kids can easily get their hands on these weapons and murder dozens of people as a result?

Maybe you have good reasons but I just can't understand the logic behind that part of your stance. Couldn't agree more about the removing these people from society though. Society in general is all way too lenient.

But it doesn't make any sense to just say "oh well we should remove unfit people from society anyway so for now we won't bother trying to restrict mentally unstable peoples' access to guns until we can do that". That makes no sense"


So, I say


He's 19. He's an adult. Even if we were to make up "school-aged kids", it would not include 19 year olds.

That term you used..."mentally deranged"...can you define it, quantify it, tell us who diagnosed this guy as mentally deranged, what database he went into? That didn't happen? Can you tell us who was supposed to diagnose him and what was supposed to happen then?

You could do the same for "mentally unstable". What does that mean? Who determines it? Then what?



And no, we sure as hell don't give the politicians and the government and the powerful who won't be limited by any of this free reign to make up rules saying a great portion of the country suddenly can't have a gun
If I say "we should find a cure for AIDS" would your response be "but how do you cure AIDS? What drugs to you use and how much?" as if me not knowing the answer is somehow relevant. There's phucking scientists for that ****. Doesn't mean that you shouldn't cure AIDS.

If you don't trust your government to do something as simple as that then why do you even have a government? Not that I blame you given the "same" government blindly led the economy into the ground with the mortgage crisis a decade ago and used generations of tax-payer money to bail out the crooked banks who phucked it all up in the first place.

edit: not saying it's "simple" per se, but compared to a lot of the **** they do for you it is
post 1543939011 02-15-2018, 06:46 PM
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Can’t stop it really, people will find a way to do whatever they want usually. I wonder if an on campus officer was there if the shooting would’ve ended sooner or not. My school used to have an officer there, and it wasn’t even a rough school.
post 1543939121 02-15-2018, 06:48 PM
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Originally Posted By TheJediBrah⏩
If I say "we should find a cure for AIDS" would your response be "but how do you cure AIDS? What drugs to you use and how much?" as if me not knowing the answer is somehow relevant. There's phucking scientists for that ****. Doesn't mean that you shouldn't cure AIDS.

If you don't trust your government to do something as simple as that then why do you even have a government? Not that I blame you given the "same" government blindly led the economy into the ground with the mortgage crisis a decade ago and used generations of tax-payer money to bail out the crooked banks who phucked it all up in the first place.

edit: not saying it's "simple" per se, but compared to a lot of the **** they do for you it is
Okay, now about this.

What you propose is impossible. It is a Utopian pipe dream. So, what's your next suggestion?
post 1543939141 02-15-2018, 06:48 PM
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How come mentally ill people can buy guns in America? Seems like a stupid thing to let happen.
post 1543939371 02-15-2018, 06:51 PM
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Originally Posted By Amino89⏩
Can’t stop it really, people will find a way to do whatever they want usually. I wonder if an on campus officer was there if the shooting would’ve ended sooner or not. My school used to have an officer there, and it wasn’t even a rough school.
See I strongly disagree with this. Making guns illegal will prevent this type of stuff. A ****en 19 isn’t connected to criminal kingpins and can buy an illegal gun. This isn’t a ****en video game. Every idiot gun nut acts like it’s so simple to get illegal guns on the black market. If that was true why aren’t gangs buying automatics from this out in the open crime lords that 19 year olds can find?


Also a cop was on scene at columbine and engaged with the 2 shooters and it did 100% nothing. Would it help? Maybe. But where do you draw the line? Schools? Theaters? Malls? Churches? Are we going to have the national guard outside every building with a concentration of people? All because some backwoods morons can’t understand there is a gun problem in this country?
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post 1543939531 02-15-2018, 06:53 PM
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Originally Posted By Farley1324⏩
Okay, now about this.

What you propose is impossible. It is a Utopian pipe dream. So, what's your next suggestion?
If you honestly believe that restricting gun sales to people with psychiatric or violent history is "impossible", then well played. I find that a very bizarre thing to think, but hey it's a free country.
post 1543939581 02-15-2018, 06:53 PM
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Originally Posted By P51⏩
See I strongly disagree with this. Making guns illegal will prevent this type of stuff. A ****en 19 isn’t connected to criminal kingpins and can buy an illegal gun. This isn’t a ****en video game. Every idiot gun nut acts like it’s so simple to get illegal guns on the black market. If that was true why aren’t gangs buying automatics from this out in the open crime lords that 19 year olds can find?


Also a cop was on scene at columbine and engaged with the 2 shooters and it did 100% nothing. Would it help? Maybe. But where do you draw the line? Schools? Theaters? Malls? Churches? Are we going to have the national guard outside every building with a concentration of people? All because some backwoods morons can’t understand there is a gun problem in this country?
lol at needing to be connected to a criminal kingpin to get a gun

lol at a 19 year old not being able to buy a gun illegally

There aren't 300-400 million full auto firearms out there, and the ones that are, are generally much more difficult to steal AND much more difficult to use in crime because most are not small handguns that are readily concealable, with small readily concealable handguns being what is used in the vast majority of crimes where a firearm is used
post 1543939651 02-15-2018, 06:54 PM
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Originally Posted By TheJediBrah⏩
If you honestly believe that restricting gun sales to people with psychiatric or violent history is "impossible", then well played. I find that a very bizarre thing to think, but hey it's a free country.
If you honestly believe it can be done, tell us how. If you can't tell us how, do you really believe it can be done?
post 1543940141 02-15-2018, 07:01 PM
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Originally Posted By Farley1324⏩
lol at needing to be connected to a criminal kingpin to get a gun

lol at a 19 year old not being able to buy a gun illegally

There aren't 300-400 million full auto firearms out there, and the ones that are, are generally much more difficult to steal AND much more difficult to use in crime because most are not small handguns that are readily concealable, with small readily concealable handguns being what is used in the vast majority of crimes where a firearm is used
You can’t believe the **** you’re saying. I refuse to believe anyone can lack common sense. If you think a 19 year old knows where to acquire a gun illegally then we have a bigger gun problem on our hands than I thought and if you can’t understand how that signals an even bigger problem, well......


Also if we made semiautomatic guns illegal and they became as rare as automatic, it would be just as hard to acquire them.... but no there is this out in the open gun lord who had AR15s in his trench coat that every 19 year old knows where to find.


Give me a ****en break. People like you are responsible for gun deaths, you vote in idiots who keep this cycle going and going. And then you pass you’re ass backwards beliefs to your children who keep it going. I can tell you’re one of those die hard voters who only votes for his party instead of using your fuken brain and picking the best canidate.
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post 1543940261 02-15-2018, 07:03 PM
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Originally Posted By Farley1324⏩
That term you used..."mentally deranged"...can you define it, quantify it, tell us who diagnosed this guy as mentally deranged, what database he went into? That didn't happen? Can you tell us who was supposed to diagnose him and what was supposed to happen then?

You could do the same for "mentally unstable". What does that mean? Who determines it? Then what?
I'll say again: being diagnosed with a dangerous mental illness does not necessarily preclude you from purchasing a firearm.

The laws address people who are adjudicated as mentally defective by a court or who are involuntarily forced into psychiatric care, but not necessarily people who are totally severely delusional, angry, and paranoidbutonly interact with the mental health system voluntarily.

It's been reported by this point that the shooter definitely had many contacts with both the police and the mental health system, but not the kind that would cause him to flag on the NICS. This isn't some mysterious, intractable question. It's a recurring theme with these mass shootings that one way or another, the existing system isn't catching some very clear-cut cases of people who are torturing animals, brutalizing their wives and kids, accusing people of controlling their brains with microwaves, etc.
Nah, fukk that. I’m not doing that.
post 1543940451 02-15-2018, 07:05 PM
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Originally Posted By Farley1324⏩
If you honestly believe it can be done, tell us how. If you can't tell us how, do you really believe it can be done?
You have to be a troll. Were you home schooled? There is 0 way you made it past 5th grade without being able to use simple reasoning skills.

So if a person identifies a problem, but can’t come up with the PERFECT solution, there is no problem? Jesus Christ. Thank god there is more than 1 person on Earth who might have the solution!
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post 1543940851 02-15-2018, 07:10 PM
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Originally Posted By Farley1324⏩
If you honestly believe it can be done, tell us how. If you can't tell us how, do you really believe it can be done?
There's so many ways it can be done. Maybe you need to get prescriptions from certain professionals to buy guns, maybe you just to have your ID runt through a database and refused sale if you have a history of violence or psychiatric illness. It's not some impossible task.

Where it gets difficult is the conflict with people's "freedom" and "rights", because you're not going to be able to restrict gun sales without affecting people's "rights" as they are now. You can't do one without the other.
Originally Posted By P51⏩
You have to be a troll. Were you home schooled? There is 0 way you made it past 5th grade without being able to use simple reasoning skills.

So if a person identifies a problem, but can’t come up with the PERFECT solution, there is no problem? Jesus Christ. Thank god there is more than 1 person on Earth who might have the solution!
You don't have to go around insulting people. You have pointed out a bizarre logical fallacy though that's prevalent in this thread, ie. "if you don't know the perfect solution then you shouldn't suggest that a solution is warranted", which is really dumb. With that kind of thinking we'd still be living in the stone age and no one would live past 50. Maybe we would have been wiped out by polio or something who knows.
post 1543940911 02-15-2018, 07:10 PM
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Originally Posted By P51⏩
If you think a 19 year old knows where to acquire a gun illegally then we have a bigger gun problem on our hands than I thought and if you can’t understand how that signals an even bigger problem, well......
You realize 19 year olds aren't still in diapers, right?
post 1543940931 02-15-2018, 07:11 PM
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Originally Posted By P51⏩
no there was a fuken armed cop who engaged them and it did nothing
You don't know Columbine very well. That was the first of the mass school shootings . . . had never happened before and so there was no specific training for such an event. It was never imagined to happen. There were no cops at or in the school when it started. The resource officer was finishing lunch in his car nearby at the park. He and another cop who were dispatched exchanged fire with the *******z initially outside the school . . . but their training was to waitoutsidefor SWAT and backup to arrive. So they did. Meanwhile the dirtbags were inside slaughtering students and some bombs were going off--further complicating the situation (waiting for bomb squad now). By the time SWAT arrived and entered it was all over and the shooters offed themselves.

That very event led to the creation of new rules for active shooters to be developed . . . enter, locate and engage immediately to end the threat as soon as possible. If you apply what wasn't know until AFTER the very event you brought up to Columbine today, it probably ends faster with fewer lives lost given how fast the cops were there.

But Columbine also shows how hard it is to prevent dirtbags from doing sick things with ample planning and motivation. Their original plan was to blow up propane bombs in the cafeteria . . . killing most people that way and shooting at the kids as they ran away to kill more. Fortunately, the bombs didn't work very well. So they had to change their plan. They also acquired their guns illegally.
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post 1543941101 02-15-2018, 07:13 PM
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Originally Posted By ANumber1⏩
I'll say again: being diagnosed with a dangerous mental illness does not necessarily preclude you from purchasing a firearm.

The laws address people who are adjudicated as mentally defective by a court or who are involuntarily forced into psychiatric care, but not necessarily people who are totally severely delusional, angry, and paranoidbutonly interact with the mental health system voluntarily.

It's been reported by this point that the shooter definitely had many contacts with both the police and the mental health system, but not the kind that would cause him to flag on the NICS. This isn't some mysterious, intractable question. It's a recurring theme with these mass shootings that one way or another, the existing system isn't catching some very clear-cut cases of people who are torturing animals, brutalizing their wives and kids, accusing people of controlling their brains with microwaves, etc.
It may not be an intractable question, but virtually everybody who starts down that roads has absolutely nothing specific to offer.

Are you the one to answer it? Who makes the call? What is missing and what do we add to fill the gap?
post 1543941221 02-15-2018, 07:14 PM
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Originally Posted By P51⏩
You have to be a troll. Were you home schooled? There is 0 way you made it past 5th grade without being able to use simple reasoning skills.

So if a person identifies a problem, but can’t come up with the PERFECT solution, there is no problem? Jesus Christ. Thank god there is more than 1 person on Earth who might have the solution!
Yes...asking for an explanation of a person's proposed solution means there is no problem...I'm asking for the specifics of the solution to the non-problem...that makes a lot of sense.

Keep up with the red herring though...it's cool that you have entire posts not addressing the topic at all
post 1543941401 02-15-2018, 07:17 PM
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Originally Posted By TheJediBrah⏩
There's so many ways it can be done. Maybe you need to get prescriptions from certain professionals to buy guns
No. Not just no, but hell no. This is a Right. This is not a privilege that requires a ****ing prescription to be allowed to buy a gun.
Originally Posted By TheJediBrah⏩
maybe you just to have your ID runt through a database and refused sale if you have a history of violence or psychiatric illness. It's not some impossible task.
And this guy would have been sold a gun, yes? So what does this ^ even do?
Originally Posted By TheJediBrah⏩
Where it gets difficult is the conflict with people's "freedom" and "rights", because you're not going to be able to restrict gun sales without affecting people's "rights" as they are now. You can't do one without the other.
That's Right.
Originally Posted By TheJediBrah⏩
You don't have to go around insulting people. You have pointed out a bizarre logical fallacy though that's prevalent in this thread, ie. "if you don't know the perfect solution then you shouldn't suggest that a solution is warranted", which is really dumb. With that kind of thinking we'd still be living in the stone age and no one would live past 50. Maybe we would have been wiped out by polio or something who knows.
If you're going to suggest a solution, you should have an idea about how it is going to work or what you think it will accomplish.
post 1543941501 02-15-2018, 07:18 PM
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Originally Posted By TheJediBrah⏩
not sure what you're saying?



If the kid went to school with a knife instead less children would be dead right now. You don't think it's an issue that mentally deranged school-aged kids can easily get their hands on these weapons and murder dozens of people as a result?

Maybe you have good reasons but I just can't understand the logic behind that part of your stance. Couldn't agree more about the removing these people from society though. Society in general is all way too lenient.

But it doesn't make any sense to just say "oh well we should remove unfit people from society anyway so for now we won't bother trying to restrict mentally unstable peoples' access to guns until we can do that". That makes no sense
He pulled a fire alarm to create a dense mass of potential victims. A truck or a couple 5-gallon gas cans would have killed 17 people yesterday. Limiting your thoughts to "knives" doesn't make any sense.
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What part of "Shall Not Be Infringed" are you having trouble with?

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