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08-16-2018, 10:52 AM
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#241
- keffster
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Why is the idea of a woman cooking/cleaning so demonized in modern society and ITT? My gf likes pleasing me. I've never asked her to cook, clean , or suck my dink everyday, but she does it anyways and I make her feel appreciated. What is so wrong with that?
Inb4 dumb biblethumping slave accusations. Gf has 2 years left of medical school.
Inb4 dumb biblethumping slave accusations. Gf has 2 years left of medical school.
08-16-2018, 11:01 AM
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#242
Originally Posted By Luc1fer⏩
You are acting like having a kid in child care for 1/4th of the week and seeing them every morning and evening is equal to dropping the kid off and leaving for 18 years. Couples I know where someone stays home are now paying to get their kid in social settings even though they don't need the kid attended to. I'd love to read whatever literature you have on this because my life experience has been the EXACT opposite. Blows my mind that someone have views like this on child care in 2018, I only know two couples where there is a stay at home mom, and it has nothing to do about benefits of the kid, just the woman can't earn enough to offset child care costs. If you already had a non working wife I'd 100% put it down as cope, but I believe you are single so it just blows my mind, like we are living on two different planets.Child care is essentially shoving your kid out of the way so you keep working in your office all day. Why have a kid at all?
There's a lot of controversy surrounding the impact of excessive daycare. From the meta-analysis I've read, you're right - the success (as defined by economic wealth aka the US version of success) isn't negatively correlated. But the psychological health and stability is. Those initial 3-5 years are critical for personality development and bonding/attachment of the child. If the bonding (i.e. time, attention and love) to the parent doesn't happen, the issues persist through adulthood.
There's a lot of controversy surrounding the impact of excessive daycare. From the meta-analysis I've read, you're right - the success (as defined by economic wealth aka the US version of success) isn't negatively correlated. But the psychological health and stability is. Those initial 3-5 years are critical for personality development and bonding/attachment of the child. If the bonding (i.e. time, attention and love) to the parent doesn't happen, the issues persist through adulthood.
Originally Posted By keffster⏩
I mean isn't OP saying that is what he is jealous of and the point of his thread?Why is the idea of a woman cooking/cleaning so demonized in modern society and ITT? My gf likes pleasing me. I've never asked her to cook, clean , or suck my dink everyday, but she does it anyways and I make her feel appreciated. What is so wrong with that?
Inb4 dumb biblethumping slave accusations. Gf has 2 years left of medical school.
Inb4 dumb biblethumping slave accusations. Gf has 2 years left of medical school.
08-16-2018, 11:03 AM
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#243
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Originally Posted By Luc1fer⏩
it should be pretty easy for you to locate and produce this meta-analysisBut the psychological health and stability is. Those initial 3-5 years are critical for personality development and bonding/attachment of the child. If the bonding (i.e. time, attention and love) to the parent doesn't happen, the issues persist through adulthood.
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08-16-2018, 11:12 AM
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#244
Originally Posted By mgftp⏩
You are acting like having a kid in child care for 1/4th of the week and seeing them every morning and evening is equal to dropping the kid off and leaving for 18 years. Couples I know where someone stays home are now paying to get their kid in social settings even though they don't need the kid attended to. I'd love to read whatever literature you have on this because my life experience has been the EXACT opposite. Blows my mind that someone have views like this on child care in 2018, I only know two couples where there is a stay at home mom, and it has nothing to do about benefits of the kid, just the woman can't earn enough to offset child care costs. If you already had a non working wife I'd 100% put it down as cope, but I believe you are single so it just blows my mind, like we are living on two different planets.
I mean isn't OP saying that is what he is jealous of and the point of his thread?
I mean isn't OP saying that is what he is jealous of and the point of his thread?
Originally Posted By AltarOfPlagues⏩
I think both are important. Having your kiddo exposed and interacting with other kids is important. So is raising them yourself in those first few years. I definitely don't think it should be either extreme where your kid is gone in daycare from 8:00am - 5:00pm M-F or keeping your kid isolated for weeks on end.it should be pretty easy for you to locate and produce this meta-analysis
Wife and I are fortunate to have her stay home and watch the kiddos. Daycare for under 2, diaper kids is crazy like ~1800/month x2 would be 3600/month. So what we do instead is drop the older one off for a few hours at a learning center a few times a week. He gets to interact with other kiddos and taught structure but we have him 90% of the time. He gets best of both worlds. He has is mom with him most of the time, I get home from work and take him out to do chit. Then he also gets to go have fun at a "daycare" for a few hours 3-4 days of the week. It costs us only ~$75/week to do that and it is all pay as you go. So if we opt out of a week we are good and if we go more (it's limited to 20 hours/week) we pay more.
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08-16-2018, 01:17 PM
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#245
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Originally Posted By sdoo⏩
Lmao"I-I-I'll call him an incel, that'll show him!"
08-16-2018, 02:32 PM
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#246
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For the guys that want a 100% stay at home wife, can she still stay home full time when the kids start going to school, at like 5 or 6 years old?
I have expensive taste, I can’t imagine my wife not working while the kids are at school all day. We split the middle, wife works 2 days a week and we have a nanny come and watch the kids on those days. But, obviously, it’s an individual decision.
I have expensive taste, I can’t imagine my wife not working while the kids are at school all day. We split the middle, wife works 2 days a week and we have a nanny come and watch the kids on those days. But, obviously, it’s an individual decision.
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08-16-2018, 02:42 PM
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#247
Originally Posted By StickLegs78⏩
No, she must have work ethic and a sense of fairness. If the kids are older and she's sitting around the home, that won't fly.For the guys that want a 100% stay at home wife, can she still stay home full time when the kids start going to school, at like 5 or 6 years old?
I have expensive taste, I can’t imagine my wife not working while the kids are at school all day. We split the middle, wife works 2 days a week and we have a nanny come and watch the kids on those days. But, obviously, it’s an individual decision.
I have expensive taste, I can’t imagine my wife not working while the kids are at school all day. We split the middle, wife works 2 days a week and we have a nanny come and watch the kids on those days. But, obviously, it’s an individual decision.
The only difference between me and mgftp is I believe raising young kids well, and doing a great job in the household is hard, and important work. Whereas he sees only "career" work as real work. At least that's my impression.
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08-16-2018, 02:57 PM
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#248
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Originally Posted By redraider86⏩
While I completely agree with most of what you are saying, I do think that a woman who cooks/cleans is looked down on in society. Women in my age group literally brag about not even knowing how to cook and never cleaning, as if it is a badge of honor. Who tf is dating these females?Nothing, LOL. There is nothing wrong with this, and I'm not so sure that it's demonized. Women are fully capable of crushing it in the home and at the office.
I find more men bragging on their wives for cooking and homemaking then I do women bragging on their husbands who have mowed the lawn, checked the oil, repainted the deck, etc. I think this makes it seem in people's minds that men aren't pulling their weight around the house when the reality is their wives aren't verbally and publicly appreciative of this work. Women may also feel they are contributing more when they make smaller contributions more often, versus a larger project that a man has taken on.
I find more men bragging on their wives for cooking and homemaking then I do women bragging on their husbands who have mowed the lawn, checked the oil, repainted the deck, etc. I think this makes it seem in people's minds that men aren't pulling their weight around the house when the reality is their wives aren't verbally and publicly appreciative of this work. Women may also feel they are contributing more when they make smaller contributions more often, versus a larger project that a man has taken on.
08-16-2018, 02:59 PM
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#249
Originally Posted By Luc1fer⏩
Not at all, I am just not seeing any benefit to having a woman raise children full time.No, she must have work ethic and a sense of fairness. If the kids are older and she's sitting around the home, that won't fly.
The only difference between me and mgftp is I believe raising young kids well, and doing a great job in the household is hard, and important work. Whereas he sees only "career" work as real work. At least that's my impression.
The only difference between me and mgftp is I believe raising young kids well, and doing a great job in the household is hard, and important work. Whereas he sees only "career" work as real work. At least that's my impression.
08-16-2018, 03:06 PM
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#250
Originally Posted By mgftp⏩
Lower stress, more time with children (even if studies aren't conclusive I'd rather stay on the safe side tbh), higher innate fulfillment (may depend on the person, but I'd want my wife to be feminine and desire the motherly role).Not at all, I am just not seeing any benefit to having a woman raise children full time.
Oh, and less stress again. lol at rushing to drop kids off at daycare as you both commute to your office jobs, and then back to the rat race to pick them up.
𝕮𝖍𝖆𝖘𝖊 𝖆 𝖈𝖍𝖊𝖈𝕶, 𝖓𝖊𝖛𝖊𝖗 𝖈𝖍𝖆𝖘𝖊 𝖆 𝖇𝖎𝖙𝖈𝖍
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08-16-2018, 03:20 PM
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#251
Originally Posted By Luc1fer⏩
Ok, I phrashed that worng, let me try again. I am just not seeing enough benefit to having a woman raise children full time to give up the benefits of a dual Income household.Lower stress, more time with children (even if studies aren't conclusive I'd rather stay on the safe side tbh), higher innate fulfillment (may depend on the person, but I'd want my wife to be feminine and desire the motherly role).
Oh, and less stress again. lol at rushing to drop kids off at daycare as you both commute to your office jobs, and then back to the rat race to pick them up.
Oh, and less stress again. lol at rushing to drop kids off at daycare as you both commute to your office jobs, and then back to the rat race to pick them up.
08-16-2018, 03:23 PM
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#252
Originally Posted By mgftp⏩
You must see dual income as a massive plus then. All the logistics and rat race commuting sounds like a nightmare to me. I would rather live in a smaller house, go on less vacations, and drive a normal car.Ok, I phrashed that worng, let me try again. I am just not seeing enough benefit to having a woman raise children full time to give up the benefits of a dual Income household.
𝕮𝖍𝖆𝖘𝖊 𝖆 𝖈𝖍𝖊𝖈𝕶, 𝖓𝖊𝖛𝖊𝖗 𝖈𝖍𝖆𝖘𝖊 𝖆 𝖇𝖎𝖙𝖈𝖍
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08-16-2018, 03:24 PM
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#253
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just lol if your woman doesn't cook, clean, give good bjs, make the most money, raise your children, do the laundry, do the grocery shopping, obey your every command, isn't a 10/10 so you can LDAR all day playing video games and lift, matter of a fact, just lol if she isn't your s&c coach and writing your strength program and spotting you on kettlebell swings
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08-16-2018, 03:41 PM
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#254
Originally Posted By sooby⏩
Don't tease manjust lol if your woman doesn't cook, clean, give good bjs, make the most money, raise your children, do the laundry, do the grocery shopping, obey your every command, isn't a 10/10 so you can LDAR all day playing video games and lift, matter of a fact, just lol if she isn't your s&c coach and writing your strength program and spotting you on kettlebell swings
𝕮𝖍𝖆𝖘𝖊 𝖆 𝖈𝖍𝖊𝖈𝕶, 𝖓𝖊𝖛𝖊𝖗 𝖈𝖍𝖆𝖘𝖊 𝖆 𝖇𝖎𝖙𝖈𝖍
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08-16-2018, 03:43 PM
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#255
I work and support the house so I don't lift a damn finger and rightfully so.
My wife cooks, cleans and takes care of our baby. No worries I do take good care of my wife.
My wife cooks, cleans and takes care of our baby. No worries I do take good care of my wife.
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08-16-2018, 04:43 PM
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#256
Originally Posted By Luc1fer⏩
Your comment confuses me. What does your commute and rat race have to do with a partner that doesn't work? If anything, having a partner that doesn't work would increase your need to work or work in worse conditions and deal with that stuff more.You must see dual income as a massive plus then. All the logistics and rat race commuting sounds like a nightmare to me. I would rather live in a smaller house, go on less vacations, and drive a normal car.
I agree on that it's not all about money, I feel like I fall more into this camp than anyone I know in fact. People think I am crazy as I have been turning down job offers that would pay me more for over a decade now to maintain a good work/life balance. But one reason I feel very comfortable doing that is knowing I have a partner that is contributing significantly.
08-16-2018, 05:50 PM
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#257
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Originally Posted By Luc1fer⏩
That’s totally fair. We have a big house, expensive cars, and went to the Caymans once and Aruba twice this year, I’m a work hard, play hard guy, but I totally respect the younger generation that is embracing minimalism et.You must see dual income as a massive plus then. All the logistics and rat race commuting sounds like a nightmare to me. I would rather live in a smaller house, go on less vacations, and drive a normal car.
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08-17-2018, 08:58 AM
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#258
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Originally Posted By StickLegs78⏩
Fukkin Grand Cayman...expensive as fukk LOL. I went for a couple of weeks to skate the Black Pearl, with accommodations and food (holy fukk good food) it cost me over $12,000 total. Glad I went, but once is enough.That’s totally fair. We have a big house, expensive cars, and went to the Caymans once and Aruba twice this year, I’m a work hard, play hard guy, but I totally respect the younger generation that is embracing minimalism et.
08-17-2018, 09:13 AM
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#259
Originally Posted By Luc1fer⏩
My wife would be miserable as a stay at home mom, and I also like my daughters having a role model that is a good mom AND a respected professional.You must see dual income as a massive plus then. All the logistics and rat race commuting sounds like a nightmare to me. I would rather live in a smaller house, go on less vacations, and drive a normal car.
Much respect to families where a parent stays home of course, but there's more to it than just the income.
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08-17-2018, 10:26 AM
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#260
Originally Posted By MrBourbon⏩
One of the biggest benefits I see is the child seeing how hard both parents work and developing a work ethic. Especially if I had daughters, I'd want them to have goals and aspirations, I don't wanna raise a girl who thinks her main role in life is to bred like an animal and raise kids.My wife would be miserable as a stay at home mom, and I also like my daughters having a role model that is a good mom AND a respected professional.
Much respect to families where a parent stays home of course, but there's more to it than just the income.
Much respect to families where a parent stays home of course, but there's more to it than just the income.
08-17-2018, 11:09 AM
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#261
- redraider86
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Originally Posted By keffster⏩
I don't know, but I'm sure it's happening, otherwise they wouldn't be bragging.While I completely agree with most of what you are saying, I do think that a woman who cooks/cleans is looked down on in society. Women in my age group literally brag about not even knowing how to cook and never cleaning, as if it is a badge of honor. Who tf is dating these females?
To be fair, I think it's equally weird when men can't cook or clean. As if it's brag-worthy to admit that you're incapable of following the most basic of instructions.Originally Posted By mgftp⏩
First statement, completely onboard. But what's wrong with women who aspire to be mothers with big families? The beauty of feminism is that we are able to do whatever we choose to do so. Good for the women who aspire to be CEO's. Good for the SAHMs who aspire to have large families. Raising children and homemaking iswork,and it is some of the most challenging yet rewarding work there is. I mean I'd rather eat glass than do so, but shaming women who choose a different path is misguided.One of the biggest benefits I see is the child seeing how hard both parents work and developing a work ethic. Especially if I had daughters, I'd want them to have goals and aspirations, I don't wanna raise a girl who thinks her main role in life is to bred like an animal and raise kids.
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08-17-2018, 11:32 AM
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#262
Originally Posted By redraider86⏩
Never said there was. I just think there is clear benefit in showing a child work ethic (from both parents). If the child is a daughter showing her that women can work and have aspirations in life beyond being bred is something else I'd consider important. Furthermore, I'd say it's pretty damaging for a young girl to grow up knowing Dad would only date a woman who promised not to have career goals because in his eyes that's all a woman, and her mom should do. None of these things mean she is being locked out of being a SAHM one day if her heart desires when she is an adult, but I'd rather raise my daughter knowing women can do things besides that.I don't know, but I'm sure it's happening, otherwise they wouldn't be bragging.
To be fair, I think it's equally weird when men can't cook or clean. As if it's brag-worthy to admit that you're incapable of following the most basic of instructions.
First statement, completely onboard. But what's wrong with women who aspire to be mothers with big families?The beauty of feminism is that we are able to do whatever we choose to do so. Good for the women who aspire to be CEO's. Good for the SAHMs who aspire to have large families. Raising children and homemaking iswork,and it is some of the most challenging yet rewarding work there is. I mean I'd rather eat glass than do so, but shaming women who choose a different path is misguided.
To be fair, I think it's equally weird when men can't cook or clean. As if it's brag-worthy to admit that you're incapable of following the most basic of instructions.First statement, completely onboard. But what's wrong with women who aspire to be mothers with big families?The beauty of feminism is that we are able to do whatever we choose to do so. Good for the women who aspire to be CEO's. Good for the SAHMs who aspire to have large families. Raising children and homemaking iswork,and it is some of the most challenging yet rewarding work there is. I mean I'd rather eat glass than do so, but shaming women who choose a different path is misguided.
08-17-2018, 11:44 AM
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#263
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Originally Posted By mgftp⏩
When you use phrases like "beyond being bred" and "bred like an animal," it's reasonable to assume you harbor disdain for these women's choices. It's an interesting choice of words, but certainly ideas you are entitled to.Never said there was. I just think there is clear benefit in showing a child work ethic (from both parents). If the child is a daughter showing her that women can work and have aspirations in life beyond being bred is something else I'd consider important. Furthermore, I'd say it's pretty damaging for a young girl to grow up knowing Dad would only date a woman who promised not to have career goals because in his eyes that's all a woman, and her mom should do. None of these things mean she is being locked out of being a SAHM one day if her heart desires when she is an adult, but I'd rather raise my daughter knowing women can do things besides that.
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08-17-2018, 11:49 AM
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#264
Originally Posted By redraider86⏩
I agree, I think there's a bias instilled there - mgftp is pretty smart though, he'll see it if he introspects.When you use phrases like "beyond being bred" and "bred like an animal," it's reasonable to assume you harbor disdain for these women's choices. It's an interesting choice of words, but certainly ideas you are entitled to.
That said, I think we align for the most part. I wouldn't want my daughter to be married off by age 19 in order to necessarily be a housewife. I want her to be educated, stimulated, and make free choice, while also being aware of her biological clock (i.e. seeking the right traits in men younger), and how family will always be > career. Then make her choices accordingly.
My only point is that the role of the housewife and mother should be elevated to the respect it deserves.
𝕮𝖍𝖆𝖘𝖊 𝖆 𝖈𝖍𝖊𝖈𝕶, 𝖓𝖊𝖛𝖊𝖗 𝖈𝖍𝖆𝖘𝖊 𝖆 𝖇𝖎𝖙𝖈𝖍
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08-17-2018, 11:49 AM
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#265
Originally Posted By redraider86⏩
Thank you for entitling me to my ideas. Appreciate you.When you use phrases like "beyond being bred" and "bred like an animal," it's reasonable to assume you harbor disdain for these women's choices. It's an interesting choice of words, but certainly ideas you are entitled to.
Originally Posted By Luc1fer⏩
Why bother with the time and money involved in education if it won't be used?I agree, I think there's a bias instilled there - mgftp is pretty smart though, he'll see it if he introspects.
That said, I think we align for the most part. I wouldn't want my daughter to be married off by age 19 in order to necessarily be a housewife. I want her to be educated, stimulated, and make free choice, while also being aware of her biological clock (i.e. seeking the right traits in men younger), and how family will always be > career. Then make her choices accordingly.
My only point is that the role of the housewife and mother should be elevated to the respect it deserves.
That said, I think we align for the most part. I wouldn't want my daughter to be married off by age 19 in order to necessarily be a housewife. I want her to be educated, stimulated, and make free choice, while also being aware of her biological clock (i.e. seeking the right traits in men younger), and how family will always be > career. Then make her choices accordingly.
My only point is that the role of the housewife and mother should be elevated to the respect it deserves.
08-17-2018, 12:07 PM
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#266
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Originally Posted By Luc1fer⏩
Absolutely. I think it's a bummer when we degrade and devalue the work that women (and some men!) do.I agree, I think there's a bias instilled there - mgftp is pretty smart though, he'll see it if he introspects.
That said, I think we align for the most part. I wouldn't want my daughter to be married off by age 19 in order to necessarily be a housewife. I want her to be educated, stimulated, and make free choice, while also being aware of her biological clock (i.e. seeking the right traits in men younger), and how family will always be > career. Then make her choices accordingly.
My only point is that the role of the housewife and mother should be elevated to the respect it deserves.
That said, I think we align for the most part. I wouldn't want my daughter to be married off by age 19 in order to necessarily be a housewife. I want her to be educated, stimulated, and make free choice, while also being aware of her biological clock (i.e. seeking the right traits in men younger), and how family will always be > career. Then make her choices accordingly.
My only point is that the role of the housewife and mother should be elevated to the respect it deserves.
I'm glad you mentioned education: I also think if a person chooses to be a stay at home parent, it is essential that they teach their children, not only their colors and how to write their name, but also to encourage them to learn and be curious and excited about learning. In my (limited) experience this only comes from parents who are educated and stimulated themselves.
It's concerning when parents do nothing to continue growing and learning on their own. By no means do parents need to theoretical pedagogical experts, but a thirst for growth is important.
Originally Posted By mgftp⏩
Your passive-aggressiveness isn't persuasive, in an otherwise productive back-and-forth. While it was my intention to disagree with you, I also wanted to let you know I'd heard your argument.Thank you for entitling me to my ideas. Appreciate you.
Train hard, train smart, have fun!
"I'm not autistic- I'm ARTISTIC." - etet1919
08-17-2018, 12:11 PM
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#267
Originally Posted By redraider86⏩
LoL, calm down bro, iwe are all gonna make it. Is your SHAM nagging you?Absolutely. I think it's a bummer when we degrade and devalue the work that women (and some men!) do.
I'm glad you mentioned education: I also think if a person chooses to be a stay at home parent, it is essential that they teach their children, not only their colors and how to write their name, but also to encourage them to learn and be curious and excited about learning. In my (limited) experience this only comes from parents who are educated and stimulated themselves.
It's concerning when parents do nothing to continue growing and learning on their own.
Your passive-aggressiveness isn't persuasive, in an otherwise productive back-and-forth. While it was my intention to disagree with you, I also wanted to let you know I'd heard your argument.
I'm glad you mentioned education: I also think if a person chooses to be a stay at home parent, it is essential that they teach their children, not only their colors and how to write their name, but also to encourage them to learn and be curious and excited about learning. In my (limited) experience this only comes from parents who are educated and stimulated themselves.
It's concerning when parents do nothing to continue growing and learning on their own.
Your passive-aggressiveness isn't persuasive, in an otherwise productive back-and-forth. While it was my intention to disagree with you, I also wanted to let you know I'd heard your argument.
08-17-2018, 12:21 PM
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#268
- redraider86
- Christina Hansen
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- redraider86
- Christina Hansen
- Join Date: Jun 2011
- Posts: 20,627
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Originally Posted By mgftp⏩
Nah, don't have to deal with anyone at home, thank the Lord.LoL, calm down bro, iwe are all gonna make it. Is your SHAM nagging you?
Much respect to y'all that have a full house. I like my quiet, for now.Train hard, train smart, have fun!
"I'm not autistic- I'm ARTISTIC." - etet1919
08-17-2018, 12:35 PM
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#269
Luc1fer, I am seriously perplexed by your views on this though. Can you share why you think you might have this opinion, was is something about your upbringing? the views of yours parents? an insecurity? I have seen you post a lot on these forums and always viewed you as similar to myself, just younger and more attractive. I mean if RedRider says my phrase about women being bred says something and shows bias I'd say your phrases about "bond" with parents says something as well, sounds more like you are trying to start a cult than raise a child. I realize there is no way to say that without it possibly being offensive, but since I have already been accused to being aggressive let me assure you I am not. I am just genuinely curious if you have any honest insight of what has shaped these feelings of yours. I assume you are well aware the majority and an increasing percentage of middle-upper class families are now dual income. If you don't want to talk about it or if it's too personal that is fine, or PM me, my curiosity just really spikes when people hold view points so opposite of my own.
Originally Posted By redraider86⏩
Dog is plenty crewNah, don't have to deal with anyone at home, thank the Lord.
Much respect to y'all that have a full house. I like my quiet, for now.
Much respect to y'all that have a full house. I like my quiet, for now.
08-17-2018, 12:38 PM
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#270
Originally Posted By mgftp⏩
Education doesn't have to be very expensive. You can graduate (assuming the college route) by age 22, optionally work for 2/3 years, then break to raise children. Skills can be maintained/advanced (and I would support her in doing so) during the period, without needing to work full time.Why bother with the time and money involved in education if it won't be used?
Once the kids are older and in school, work options can be re-evaluated. I care about is her work ethic, and I see raising children and maintaining everything in the household as hard work (done correctly).
And yes, that does imply women should be seeking a quality partner in their early 20's, not fukbois.
𝕮𝖍𝖆𝖘𝖊 𝖆 𝖈𝖍𝖊𝖈𝕶, 𝖓𝖊𝖛𝖊𝖗 𝖈𝖍𝖆𝖘𝖊 𝖆 𝖇𝖎𝖙𝖈𝖍
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