Imagine the sodium levels if Rafa equals or surpasses Federer when you're posting full blown essay replies if someone brings up the H2H in the biggest of stages (SLAMS).

just lmao.

Will you still be posting if Novak passes Nadal?

Sorry mate but I think that ship sailed when Djokovic rose from the ashes at Wimbledon. Here comes a full blown essay for some bedtime reading after you get tucked in.

Bull turns 33 next year. Since Paris 2017 he's withdrawn or retired from 14 tournaments. Only played 3 non-clay tournaments this year. Hasn't exactly been a beacon of consistency. So where's he winning these 4 slams to pass him?

AO? 1 title in 13 attempts. Lost in finals to Djokovic, Stanimal, and Federer. Only reached the SF one other time and was destroyed by Tsonga. Thanks to faster courts these days and a resurgent Djokovic it's probably not happening with his cream puff serve.

RG? Realistically his best shot but would be 36 years old chasing RG No. 15 in 2022.

Wimbledon? This year the perfect storm of hot dry conditions helped him avoid the usual first week upset to a random journeyman but if the likes of Zverev and Khachanov are improving and 6'8"+ servebots like Anderson and Isner are going deep then it's not going to get any easier. Throw in Djokovic who will be the favorite every time he shows up these days and I'd say another title is unlikely. He had his shot. Couldn't close.

US Open? With the slowest HC surface on the tour this is his best hunting ground outside RG but his chances of getting another cupcake draw like 2017 with no Top 25 players would surely be slim. He looked in good shape this year and struggled against Khachanov and Thiem before he pulled the plug against Delpo. So another title here is possible but again Djokovic is the favorite reaching 8 finals in the last 11 years.

Would never completely write him off but I really can't see it happening now. He had his chances. 2017 AO final and 2018 Wimbledon could have put him level with Federer and being 5 years younger he'd be coming home with a wet sail in that race.However the reality is he's no closer to passing Federer than he was in 2014.

The problem is it can still be skewed by a surface specialist when the bulk of the matches happen on his terms.

Nadal has only faced Djokovic once at the Australian Open but 7x at the French. If they played 7 times in Melbourne I'll bet that's another 7 losses for Nadal.

Nadal has only faced Djokovic 3x at Wimbledon for his solitary win in 2007. Djokovic has the superior record there and since 2011 surely wins every match.

Nadal faced Federer only 3 times at Wimbledon for his only win in 2008 which went down to the wire and ended in darkness. How many beatings would he have received from 2012-2017?

And lastly they never played at the US Open. Please list the years you think he would have beaten Federer. I'll give him 2010, maybe 2011, 2013, and 2017. That's 3 wins and a maybe. 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2014, and 2015 would have been floggings. So 3-8 there IMO.

And if he doesn’t pass Fed? Do you just go back to the H2H cope and cry yourself to sleep?

I forgot who I was talking to. I'll make it simple for you.

Nadal faced Federer and Djokovic 12x at the French for a combined11-1H2H.

Question: Since GS H2H is all that matters to you, if Nadal faced them 12 times at Wimbledon — where they've won 13 titles to Nadal's 2 — how many matches does he win?

Aww lawd. The old "NADAL IS TOO GOOD ON CLAY SO WE SHOULDN'T COUNT H2H AT THE FRENCH"

Also Nadal is more than a match for Djokovic on grass as proven at this years Wimbledon. It's embarrassing that you even mention that stat.

If both players are healthy next year who would you bet on to win that slam?

Embarrassing that you can't make the distinction between the Djokovic who hadn't won anything in 2 years losing to heavyweights like Taro Daniel and Marco Cecchinato and the Djokovic who won 14 slams and has owned your mighty Bull since 2011.

Do you take Nadal's 2015 form seriously because Djokovic flogged him 7 straight.

The point which is completely lost on you is Nadal's slam H2H with both players is heavily clay biased due to those 12 RG meetings for the one loss.

H2H with Federer 8x champ @ Wimbledon 1-2
H2H with Federer 5x champ @ US Open 0-0
H2H with Djokovic 6x champ @ AO 0-1
H2H with Djokovic 4x champ @ Wimbledon 1-2

You see how that works?

He got12swings at them where he's won11 slams.

They only got 7 matches against him where they've won .

If you need an adult to help you with this one I'll wait.

This isn't about who would win Wimbledon but H2H on grass. Djokovic is more consistent as Rafa has problems with big serves/hitters on that surface, but vs Djokovic I'd give him a darn good shot.Wimbledon - 2 of the 3 matches vs Federer were epic 5 set matches. I think he would have won his fair share, at least much more than Federer did vs him at the French. Lost to Djokovic in another epic 5 setter this year and in 2011 which was Djokovic's best year.

Australian Open - Only time he played Djokovic at his favorite slam, Djokovic was coming off his best year and it was an epic 5 set match. I won't mention Federer's record vs Nadal at the slam Nadal has "no chance winning" as you'll surely get triggered

US Open - Had a chance to meet Fed last year but Federer lost to Del Potro. Pretty sure Nadal would have taken him to the cleaners. I also like how you didn't mention Nadal is 2-1 vs Djokovic @ this slam as well, all 3 matches being finals.

I know it's hard for you string two thoughts together so I'll conclude it for you. Most of the matches Nadal lost to Federer and Djokovic at their favorite slams were extremely close. There is no evidence whatsoever they would have wiped the floor with him like he has done to them at the French Open.

I know it's hard for you to come to terms with, but just try.

You nut hug the Bull so hard you can't see the forest for the trees. While this was happening Federer, Djokovic, and Murray all won Wimbledontwice. Meanwhile Rafa hasn't been in a final since 2011 — in fact he's only been past the 4th round once.





He's got 2 wins off clay vs. Djokovic in 8 years and 2015-2016 he lost 7 straight without winning a set. Yes Novak would have wiped the floor with him at Wimbledon and the US Open that year much like he straight setted him at Roland Garros. Federer also would have gone in dry at Wimbledon and the US Open in 2015.

Okay let's do this. We already know how RG would go down so please list the years Nadal beats Federer. I can't be bothered with Novak because he's dominated him outside Roland Garros since 2011.

AO 2004 Nope
AO 2005 Nope
AO 2006 Nope
AO 2007 Nope
AO 2008 Maybe (changed from Rebound Ace to Djoker's favorite Plexicushion)
AO 2009 Yes*
AO 2010 No (injured)
AO 2011 Yes
AO 2012 Yes*
AO 2014 Yes*
AO 2015 Yes
AO 2016 No
AO 2017 No
AO 2018 No

H2H 5-8

Wimbledon 2003 Nope
Wimbledon 2004 Nope
Wimbledon 2005 Nope
Wimbledon 2006 Nope
Wimbledon 2007 Nope
Wimbledon 2008 Yes*
Wimbledon 2009 No
Wimbledon 2010 Maybe
Wimbledon 2011 Maybe
Wimbledon 2012 No
Wimbledon 2013 Yes
Wimbledon 2014 No
Wimbledon 2015 No
Wimbledon 2016 No
Wimbledon 2017 No
Wimbledon 2018 Maybe

H2H 2-11

US Open 2003 No
US Open 2004 Nope
US Open 2005 Nope
US Open 2006 Nope
US Open 2007 Nope
US Open 2008 Nope
US Open 2009 Nope
US Open 2010 Yes
US Open 2011 Maybe
US Open 2013 Yes
US Open 2015 No
US Open 2017 Yes
US Open 2018 Maybe

H2H 3-8

----------------
I've got10 wins and 27 lossesfor Nadal plus a few that could go either way which I didn't count along with any years Nadal skipped.

Cliffs: Nadal would need two clay slams to keep the H2H even otherwise it'd be a beatdown.

Holy cherry picking stats and goal post moving Batman.

Can anyone spell...

COPE
O
E

?

No cherry picking. I listed every single year they could have played and think I was quite fair. Nadal has only beaten Federer 3x after RG in his entire career so for sure I think he's benefited from ducking him on the back nine. If you disagree make your own list instead of spewing the same old insults.Nadal had his dreams crushed by a resurgent Djokovic who stopped him from winning another slam and finishing #1 and he's also bailed on 14 tournaments this past year. You're the one in COPE mode. You called Djokovic a skeleton after Ralph pulled the pin in New York and then he moved within 3. Sodium levels were off the charts at this point. Abs man in full meltdown.

After making 7 finals in his last 8 tournaments, winning 2 slams, 2 Masters, and losing to Zverev after thrashing him earlier in the week you say he's benefiting from a gassed/injured Nadal and out of form Federer even though Nadal has a paltry 2 wins against him off clay since 2011 and Federer's last slam win over him was 2012. Time to put down the pipe champ and confront reality.

Djokovic > Nadal. It's only a matter of time before he makes it official.

Lulz

Guy is now Djokovic's #1 fan as long as he surpasses Rafa but will make absurd rationalizations if you mentioned Djokovic > Federer.

I'm not even going to bother listing every tournament but just state the fact that he put Wimbledon 2010 as maybe after Federer got beat in 4 sets by Berdych. Somehow having a 1-2 record vs Federer at Wimbledon equates to 2-11. Even more hilarious is Rafa's 3-1 record at the Aus vs Federer but somehow that becomes 5-8. fcking lol

also hilarious he counts injuries as losses.

I'll break this into two posts for you so you've got some easy bedtime reading.Thanks champ, but no. I made it clear if Djokovic gets to 17 especially if he wins another French Open given who he won the bulk of his slams against, his H2H against Fedal and Murray especially since 2011 which is utter domination, weeks at #1, winning all the Masters, 5 ATP Finals, etc. I'm at peace with putting him ahead of Federer.Would take 5 minutes to copy and paste a list and make the necessary changes but then you only started watching about 5 years ago so there'd be a strong conflict with your recency bias.Berdych has always been a difficult matchup for Federer much like Davydenko was a difficult matchup for Nadal on HC in his absolute prime (2-6). Sorry champ Berdych is no indicator of Federer's form but I still listed it as a maybe.

It doesn't but please list the years at Wimbledon where Bull beats him. Don't worry about the US Open or AO, just focus on Wimbledon."fcking lol" because they never played on Rebound Ace between 2004-2007 when Federer didn't lose a match on it and Rafa was losing to Hewitt and Gonzalez. That's an easy 4 for Federer. 2008-2014 I'll give those to Rafa. 2015-2016 Nadal could lose to anyone and he did. 2017 we know what happened. 2018 on a 0-5 streak it's not happening either.If he's entered in the draw then he's fair game.

Alright I'll play... but just fcking lol at u using 2003-2004 when Nadal was like 17-18 years old.

Wimbledon 2003 Federer
Wimbledon 2004 Federer
Wimbledon 2005 Federer
Wimbledon 2006 Federer
Wimbledon 2007 Federer
Wimbledon 2008 Nadal
Wimbledon 2009 Federer
Wimbledon 2010 Nadal
Wimbledon 2011 Nadal
Wimbledon 2012 Federer
Wimbledon 2013 Toss up
Wimbledon 2014 Federer
Wimbledon 2015 Federer
Wimbledon 2016 Federer
Wimbledon 2017 Federer
Wimbledon 2018 Toss up

11-3 Federer although the stats are skewed because early on Nadal wasn't good on grass.

Want to know how many times Federer would have beaten Nadal at the french if they played all those years? 0... maybe once when he was 17 years old LMAO.

My boy is 18-8 vs Federer and Djokovic in GS (11-1 on clay and 7-7 off clay)

some other stats to make you guys extra salty:

Youngest player in Open Era to win all 4 GS at age 24
Only player to win 3 consecutive slams on 3 different surfaces, clay-grass-hard
Only player, MALE OR FEMALE, to win 400+ clay and 400+ hard court matches
Record 33 masters titles
Most titles in a single GS by a player by FAR
May not have won a year end championship but i'll take olympic mens single gold over that anyday

You know what’s really crazy? That Nadal has never once in his career defended a title off clay. Fed, at the age of 35/36, defended the Australian Open.

Nadal was one of the greatest teenage players the game has seen. Was #2 with a slam under his belt at 2005. At Wimbledon in 2003 he reached the 3rd round before losing to a Top 10 player. He wouldn't have beaten Roddick in the QF but I see no reason why that year shouldn't be counted since it was also Federer's breakthrough year — it's not like he was at the peak of his powers.Okay we're making progress. I'd give Nadal 2013 because he was in great form that year despite the upset while Federer was in freefall.I disagree. 2006 they were pretty evenly matched on clay. In 2007 Federer went 1/17 on BPs. That was a realistic shot for sure.

2011 he was up 5-2 on serve and looking sharp before Nadal called a timeout for some bogus injury. Second set went to a tiebreak and he won the 3rd. A straight sets win was on the cards there but Nadal got in his head and it followed the same old script. I also think he would have beaten him in 2015 when Nadal was struggling.Murray has two of them so how do you rate him? Hate to break it to you mate but the ATP Finals matter. His inability to win 4-5 matches against the Top 8 in over 10 attempts is a black mark on his CV especially when Kuerten and Corretja won it and more recently Dimitrov. By all means rate the gold over an ATP Finals win but Federer's 6 titles count more than a gold medal IMO.

They keep ignoring this damning stat.

One of the key reasons I rate Djokovic over Nadal has absolutely nothing to do with protecting Federer's legacy even if I'm glad he's doing his dirty work. It's his consistency and competence across all surfaces.

Novak started the season better than anyone else with 6 AO titles and 4 "Sunshine Doubles" and he's finished the season better than anyone with 5 ATP Finals, 4 Shanghai, 4 Paris Indoor, undefeated in Beijing, etc. Nadal has the one AO title and 0 ATP Finals.

Nadal's failures at Wimbledon in his physical prime to random journeymen from 2012-2017 is also a deal breaker for me. Not being able to pass the 4th round for 6 years straight is embarrassing for an elite player. I have no idea how even Nadal's most obsessed nut huggers can write off those losses. Djokovic and Federer never had failures like that at the French in their prime.

Ok but neither Federer or Djokovic have come near the dominance on their favorite surfaces as Nadal has on clay. You could say if there were more grass tournaments, maybe Federer would have, but fact remains he has 8 Wimbledons and Nadal has 11 FO. Even if you combine Aus and USopen Djokovic has 8 hard court slams.

Also you can say Djokovic was truly at the top from 2011-2018 which equates to 7 years of dominance.

Compare that to Nadals 2005-2018 which equates to 13 years at the very top only failing to win a slam in 2 of those years.

You're seriously going to start posting records now? When Fed holds about 3 times as many? lol..... c'mon man.

Time to avoid this thread until January.

The fact that Fed is only 3 Wimbledon titles behind Rafa’s FO total when you consider how much more upset prone grass is, makes it just as impressive imo.

This is painful to read the same things over and over.

As a Rafa fan, I hang my hat on the fact that he's the greatest single surface player in history and beating him 5 sets on clay is quite possibly the toughest feat to achieve in all of sports.

Not Fed's fault he dominated before guys came along who could challenge him on Grass/Hardcourt and his achievements probably add up to him being the GOAT.

That being said i'll take peak Djoko over the other two (sans Rafa on Clay; Fed on Grass is close and you could make the argument for Fed but I'd personally take Djoko).

No argument there. His dominance of a surface is unmatched. Won 81 straight from 2005-2007.

However Ohio's point about Wimbledon is valid.Grass is more competitive than clay these days despite the much shorter season. Servebots outside the Top 50 start licking their lips for an upset in the early rounds. You want proof? How often were the other 3 in their prime upset in the first week at the French by some random journeyman? Even Murray made the final in 2016. Meanwhile Nadal couldn't pass the Wimbledon 4th round for 6 years. It's not like a 2x champ and 5x finalist forgot how to play on grass.

I'm not trying to diminish Nadal's achievements but clay isn't what it used to be with far more clay specialists 15-20 years ago. Nadal would have been top dog but surely tested more. Even a washed up Guga took out Federer in 2004 3rd round. All the proof you need is in the absence of other Spanish players making the RG final with a solitary appearance in 15 years by David Ferrer.

1993-2003 you had Bruguera, Moya, Costa, and Ferrero winning it and Corretja and Berasategui runners-up. Brazil's Guga Kuerten won 3, and Argentines like Coria, Gaudio, and Puerta all reached the final with Gaudio winning it.Muster in 1995-1996 won 111 out of 116 matches on clayincluding RG in 1995. Kafelnikov won in 1996 and was very solid on clay. Even Americans were competitive with Courier winning in 1991-1992 and reaching another final, Agassi (won 1999), and Chang (1995 final).

Begs the question...... why aren't more players today successful on that surface? Do they not practice on it as much anymore?

It's probably the Nadal effect.

Hogging all those big titles for 13 years, banking 5000+ of the 7000 available season after season not to mention prize money and it's not as attractive to be a clay specialist so they're forced to train more on HC to remain in the Top 30. That's my guess anyway.

Thiem is keeping the dream alive even flying to South America right after the AO to vulture a 250. Plays Hamburg after Wimbledon as well. Does it work? He's ranked 8 but if he'd skipped clay this year he'd be ranked outside the Top 25. I guess it still works if you're dedicated enough. Muster must have been his idol.

Here's another take. Imagine Nadal never showed up or Toni didn't transform him into a lefty. After no one winning more than 2 in a row since Borg in the 70s Federer surely wins 3 in a row from 2005-2007 then a couple more in 2009 and 2011. Djokovic probably wins 2008 and 3 in a row from 2012-2014 and of course 2016. Are they both that good on clay they deserve 10 RG titles between them? I really can't see them grinding through all those clay specialists from the 90s and early 2000s to win that many titles. Maybe 2 or 3 each.