Hahaha. Here we go. I can absolutely control my money, see exactly what I was able to do above.

Just lol at 5%. They literally pick the categories you get 5% on from my month to month. If that’s not incentivizing you to spend more in a certain area, I don’t know what is. The credit card companies are basically saying dance, monkey, dance, and you are dancing hard for them.

Enjoy your poverty rewards and grinding out your gift card to the Olive Garden, while I focus on dropping stacks of cash into investments.

The "debt snowball" concept is flatly retarded, even for most catastrophically indebted people. You're pissing money away because of poor organization skills, and as a self-professed financial guru you'd expect Dave Ramsey to at least teach people how to prioritize debt based on the returns from paying them off. At best, the approach might "work" because it gets compulsive debtors to spell out their accounts owing and put effort in grasping how deep of a hole they dug themselves and therefore take paying debts seriously. But with a modicum of organization, high-interest debts can be parceled off in similar ways to keep the psychological incentives while using the money more productively - which for many people will be difference between being able to meet minimums + pay some of the principal or neither, without changing anything about their situation.

His whole shtick is telling people with too much debt that debt is bad, without teaching them how to use borrowing/credit to their advantage or even how debt works at a fundamental level. He might as well be your uncle telling you to cut off the avocado toasts and the iPhones to find financial freedom.



MMM is GOAT, not just because of well-informed frugality but because he correctly understands the concept of opportunity cost and that different people have different values.

Totally different, you aren't even spending that money to begin with lol.



Because of the fact I barely spend, I don't ever get excited about rewards .... I use a prime card and get 5% back on Amazon purchases, but instead of getting excited about my rewards, I just question why I bought so much chit to get those rewards to begin with lol.

Getting excited about cc rewards is the same as being excited you collected some change in nickels and dimes because you spent full dollars lol.



$150k/yr in spending got you a $4k cash-back bonus.... If you spent 10% less per year and received no cash-back, you'd be $6k ahead lol. Unless your cc spending is for business expenses, wtf r u buying?

It really is stupid. Some apartment complexes won't let you live in their residence without a high enough credit score, even if you have the ability to buy out the whole complex! Makes no sense. But businesses that seek to get an idea of your payment history can't just go off of your word alone, they need that extra bit of concrete evidence.

Good news is you can scrape around the need for a good credit score for things like a mortgage via manual underwriting. But very few lenders do that.

I love the argument that you are pulling a fast one over on those stupid credit card companies. You know they could cancel your account at anytime, right? But they don’t, and it’s not because they are in the business of losing money.

You pay more attention to your spending when there is friction hence you spend less with cash as the studies have shown than if you used credit cards. This isn’t a hard concept to understand, yet everyone says they are the outlier. It’s like CEO/10k a day.

But go ahead, keep spending Willy nilly on your plastic security blanket, and pretending you are pulling a fast one over on billion dollar banks, while they lull you to sleep with their peasant rewards.

I love the argument that you are pulling a fast one over on those stupid credit card companies. You know they could cancel your account at anytime, right? But they don’t, and it’s not because they are in the business of losing money.

You pay more attention to your spending when there is friction hence you spend less with cash as the studies have shown than if you used credit cards. This isn’t a hard concept to understand, yet everyone says they are the outlier. It’s like CEO/10k a day.

But go ahead, keep spending Willy nilly on your plastic security blanket, and pretending you are pulling a fast one over on billion dollar banks, while they lull you to sleep with their peasant rewards.

this. the brah ITT who blew through $150k in a year on CC payments pretty much proves this point lmao. Aint nobody handing out $10k in hundred dollar bills every month; but a CC? yeah fuk it, swipe away.

This is a load of bull****.

When you get your financial education from someone other than Dave Ramsey, there exists an ever so slightly advanced concept called debt ratio. The highest operating entities in the world today use it effectively. If they paid everything cash, they'd be out of business.

This really isn't a debate.

this. the brah ITT who blew through $150k in a year on CC payments pretty much proves this point lmao. Aint nobody handing out $10k in hundred dollar bills every month; but a CC? yeah fuk it, swipe away.

Again, “credit cards are universally bad for everyone because I, or someone I know, has poor self-control”. It always comes back to that same argument.

LOL at interchange fees. You mean the fees they charge for infrastructure and administrative? Just LOL.

I can’t argue this with you, because you don’t understand the concept or you have a bad case of God complex. Will try one more time.

You state that you know what you can and can not afford buy - that is not the right question. The question is should I purchase this? Is it necessary? Is it consistent with my investor policy statement and or financial goals? Those are the real questions. While you are asking can I afford it, we are asking is it worth it vs investing the cash and building our empires. And the reason we ask that question more often is that when you use cash or a debit card its directly deducted from your account and you feel the transaction. It’s also the reason why McDonalds added credit cards, because you spend more when you use credit over cash.

With respect to being financially positive at the end of the year. Yeah, no kidding, if you are not at least breaking even at the end of the year you are a full on idiot. The real measure is how many tens or hundreds of thousands you are up from the year before in terms of networth.

Lastly, can we agree that the more you spend the higher rewards you get? So how do you square the circle that - I don’t spend more than I need on my credit card, yet I still get these massive rewards that you credit card rewards dupes like to brag about?

As you take a minute to think about it, I will give you the answer. They cannot both be true. I am sure you will try to argue otherwise or just fall back on your lack of self control argument - which is just another version of the “No true Scotsman” argument.

I can’t argue this with you, because you don’t understand the concept or you have a bad case of God complex. Will try one more time.

You state that you know what you can and can not afford buy - that is not the right question. The question is should I purchase this? Is it necessary? Is it consistent with my investor policy statement and or financial goals? Those are the real questions. While you are asking can I afford it, we are asking is it worth it vs investing the cash and building our empires. And the reason we ask that question more often is that when you use cash or a debit card its directly deducted from your account and you feel the transaction. It’s also the reason why McDonalds added credit cards, because you spend more when you use credit over cash.

LOL at interchange fees. You mean the fees they charge for infrastructure and administrative? Just LOL.

13 years to pay for $850 in flights? A little underwhelming, is my point. Not worth debating the merits of it, really. If it's worth your time to pay off the card every month, avoid the calls for new "promotions" to the card on a weekly basis, etc. then go for it. I just feel indifferent to going out of my way to use the card at all anymore when I used to think it was great to save points. It's an insignificant part of my financial goals in life.

Link to this MMM fella? Never heard of him,

Dave Ramsey though I've watched on YouTube videos

I don't think you're doing credit card rewards correctly.

Wife and I are generally able to pay for small vacations every year based on our points accrual. And every few years when there's a sign up reward (like the Chase Sapphire 100k a few years ago), we can take a major one. 2 years ago we went to Hawaii for 2 weeks and had a condo, flights, and rental car all covered by points.

Yeah, but you clearly actually spent more for the trip when you consider all the things you bought with a credit card you wouldn't have bought with a debit or cash, just look at the statistics! *eye roll*

https://www.forbes.com/sites/billhar.../#227b221d1c19

It's not an assumption. It's data backed up by repeated studies. It's not about not paying off your balance its the ease of use that generates more revenue for the vendor, and has you spending more than with cash, and the decoupling factor. Just read the article. Use the googles and search it out yourself or better yet, give it a shot yourself and try a couple of months going with cash or a tracked debit card. Or just go look at amazon. Their one click purchase system is designed to get you to buy every single time rather than putting it in the cart and thinking about do you really need it.

It is an impossible task to argue with people that think they are infallible, despite all the behavioral research pointing otherwise. Or don't consider it, and keep doing what you are doing. I am just trying to get people to understand that maybe, just maybe, their spending habits would change given the data and the tool they use to purchase things.

I love the argument that you are pulling a fast one over on those stupid credit card companies. You know they could cancel your account at anytime, right? But they don’t, and it’s not because they are in the business of losing money.

You pay more attention to your spending when there is friction hence you spend less with cash as the studies have shown than if you used credit cards. This isn’t a hard concept to understand, yet everyone says they are the outlier. It’s like CEO/10k a day.

But go ahead, keep spending Willy nilly on your plastic security blanket, and pretending you are pulling a fast one over on billion dollar banks, while they lull you to sleep with their peasant rewards.

I have no use for loans, because I have cash.



If you are asking am I considering my monthly sunk spend on these things and foregoing rewards for them? The answer is yes, because they don't amount to that much and are not worth the hassle factor. I am not going to sit here and do the manufactured spend or churn cards to get a free airline tickets - its way too much work for the reward, and it locks you into their system - oftentimes its more expensive in the long run - and they know this that is why they try to reel you into their "program."

The whole system is changing. Look at the 5/24 card rule being implemented. Verizon now offers discounts if you do auto pay from a checking vs credit card - its literally more expensive to use a credit card with them and not by a small margin either - and I suspect we are going to see more of that moving forward as margins for these companies are shrinking.

I would also rather spend more time earning more at work than trying to social engineer my spending because time focused on that is much more fruitful than trying to grind out the rewards. This is my big gripe with MMM. His whole philosophy is built on hyper reduction of expenditures, instead of focusing on earning more in the marketplace and that is where the real cash is made. It also conditions people to think small because they are focusing on investing their way out of the marketplace. It's good to look at your outlays and try to find efficiencies, but it's picking up pennies at the expense of dollars. You should cut your costs as best you can and find efficient ways to invest such as maxing SEPP IRAs, backdoor roths etc, to maximize your cash gains and minimize taxes, but spending your precious time playing around with rewards programs when you could be earning more is just plain backwards.

I have studied all of the different philosophies and all the arguments for and against each of the major financial folks, other than Suzie Orman, and have found that between Dave and Bogleheads you are pretty well covered in terms of developing a solid plan to deleverage and build actual wealth for the long term.

I would also rather spend more time earning more at work than trying to social engineer my spending because time focused on that is much more fruitful than trying to grind out the rewards. This is my big gripe with MMM. His whole philosophy is built on hyper reduction of expenditures, instead of focusing on earning more in the marketplace and that is where the real cash is made. It also conditions people to think small because they are focusing on investing their way out of the marketplace. It's good to look at your outlays and try to find efficiencies, but it's picking up pennies at the expense of dollars. You should cut your costs as best you can and find efficient ways to invest such as maxing SEPP IRAs, backdoor roths etc, to maximize your cash gains and minimize taxes, but spending your precious time playing around with rewards programs when you could be earning more is just plain backwards.

You state that you know what you can and can not afford buy - that is not the right question. The question is should I purchase this? Is it necessary? Is it consistent with my investor policy statement and or financial goals?Those are the real questions. While you are asking can I afford it, we are asking is it worth it vs investing the cash and building our empires. And the reason we ask that question more often is that when you use cash or a debit card its directly deducted from your account and you feel the transaction. It’s also the reason why McDonalds added credit cards, because you spend more when you use credit over cash.

With respect to being financially positive at the end of the year. Yeah, no kidding, if you are not at least breaking even at the end of the year you are a full on idiot. The real measure is how many tens or hundreds of thousands you are up from the year before in terms of networth.

Lastly, can we agree that the more you spend the higher rewards you get?So how do you square the circle that - I don’t spend more than I need on my credit card, yet I still get these massive rewards that you credit card rewards dupes like to brag about?

As you take a minute to think about it, I will give you the answer. They cannot both be true. I am sure you will try to argue otherwise or just fall back on your lack of self control argument - which is just another version of the “No true Scotsman” argument.

The last bolded response is exactly why I am going to beg you to never get a credit card because you aren't smart enough to control yourself. If you think getting 2-5% back on your card is valuable enough to get things you don't need just for the stupid rewards you are literally the exact person credit card companies target. The entire point of what we are saying is to only put things you normally buy on it just to get the added benefit from the 2-5%. People dumb enough to throw away 95% of their money for the small amount back such as yourself based on your previous logicyou should never get a credit card. Now I see why you are so against credit cards, but that is okay you are doing really good for yourself fella

Last time I respond because it is clear you are one of those people who absolutely must avoid credit cards. If you have to ask yourself if you need something every fuggin time you pull out your wallet you definitely need to stick with cash- srs friend- don't even get a debit card because you have proven time and time again you can't control your spending based on your responses. There are plenty of times I'm headed to work and think how nice it would be to get a coffee or a monster energy drink to get myself going. A lot of the time I pass because it is an added expense, but some times I do need the caffeine so I pop a 5 cent caffeine pill. 3-5% of the time I probably deserve a rewarding coffee(sometimes just made at home) or monster so I hook myself up and say to hell with the $2 expense.

The last bolded response is exactly why I am going to beg you to never get a credit card because you aren't smart enough to control yourself. If you think getting 2-5% back on your card is valuable enough to get things you don't need just for the stupid rewards you are literally the exact person credit card companies target. The entire point of what we are saying is to only put things you normally buy on it just to get the added benefit from the 2-5%. People dumb enough to throw away 95% of their money for the small amount back such as yourself based on your previous logicyou should never get a credit card. Now I see why you are so against credit cards, but that is great for you because you are doing really good for yourself my dude

Does he ever mention anything about entrepreneurship, building multiple revenue streams, et al?

His whole approach (the classic live like a peasant one) depends on income being higher than cost of living, but wages are dead flat and the cost of everything has only been increasing. You are pissing into the wind when a single major health problem or financial issue can wreck a decade of savings.