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Forum » Practicing medicine now, I see just how immune doctors are from AI/automation (srs)
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Thread: Practicing medicine now, I see just how immune doctors are from AI/automation (srs)

post 1596544301 01-28-2020, 07:59 AM
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The only thing this thread proved is how insecure doctors are about how soon technology will replace them and how mad they are we are all really ready for it.
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post 1596544661 01-28-2020, 08:04 AM
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Originally Posted By BHall1991⏩
AI =/= Computers

Radiologist are going to get replaced soon followed by surgeons. The biggest hurdle will not be doctors competence, it will be legislation and overcoming the lobbying groups.
Hundreds of years down the line? Maybe. Not in this century though.

We don't have enough information about the human physiology, disease processes etc as it is. How are we going to input it into computers and let them take care of it. Unless AI surpasses human intelligence and learns everything on its own. At which point technology would have already passed the point where we need to care of our bodies.
post 1596544781 01-28-2020, 08:05 AM
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Originally Posted By BloodFireDeath⏩
Hundreds of years down the line? Maybe. Not in this century though.

We don't have enough information about the human physiology, disease processes etc as it is. How are we going to input it into computers and let them take care of it. Unless AI surpasses human intelligence and learns everything on its own. At which point technology would have already passed the point where we need to care of our bodies.
People who think medicine is treating coughs and colds (aka most people ITT) will think that a computer can replace doctors.
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post 1596545251 01-28-2020, 08:13 AM
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I think for the foreseeable future we will need doctors, even if they just become mediators and ultimate decision makers for machines diagnoses.

People don't trust technology, image a lifeless box telling you to get surgery for a non-life threatening or affecting conditions because its the better option available.
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post 1596545661 01-28-2020, 08:19 AM
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Originally Posted By atjoblin⏩
I think for the foreseeable future we will need doctors, even if they just become mediators and ultimate decision makers for machines diagnoses.

People don't trust technology, image a lifeless box telling you to get surgery for a non-life threatening or affecting conditions because its the better option available.
Even if some divine supernatural computer existed, who do you sue when it screws up? Is there one company making them and getting sued daily by patients nationwide? Are there multiple companies getting sued?

A big reason to even have such a well trained person making decisions is liability. Hospital systems have doctors on board even in states with independent midlevel practice rights so that someone can be there to lower liability and lower.
And rarely when doctors screw up, they often don't get sued when they admit their errors and have been compassionate throughout the process. A lifeless robot? They'd be a magnet (no pun intended) for lawsuits for the tiniest reasons, cause why not?
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post 1596546811 01-28-2020, 08:37 AM
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The big pharma shilling from op is cuckening at its finest. ****git
post 1596547121 01-28-2020, 08:41 AM
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Originally Posted By Hardlifter9⏩
Even if some divine supernatural computer existed, who do you sue when it screws up?
bullet proof logic from a big brain doctor
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post 1596547351 01-28-2020, 08:44 AM
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Would rather a robot doctor checking my prostate than a ****gy human
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post 1596547541 01-28-2020, 08:47 AM
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Originally Posted By janglingjack⏩
Would rather a robot doctor checking my prostate than a ****gy human
This, and roll in the milking machine while they're at it. I'm sick of making two different stops for this chit
post 1596547561 01-28-2020, 08:47 AM
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Computers don't need to be 'programmed', just the algorithm for learning does.

Machine learning does this greatly, doctors are not safe.

Not only that, computers can already aid doctors in their work (there's machine learning algorithms that help increase doctors rate of detecting cancerous cells), which also results in less jobs.

There's literally a dude who started a medical company using only machine learning algorithms and 0 medical knowledge.
post 1596547681 01-28-2020, 08:48 AM
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Originally Posted By Hardlifter9⏩
They already tried with anesthesia. Didn't even come close to being implemented. Anesthesiologists continue to make 400,000$/year. They're trying now with radiology but when I'm considering placing a duodenojejunal stent in a pancreatic cancer patient, I want to talk with the radiologist about the patient's cancer, not consult with a robot. In 50 years? Maybe who knows. Not anytime soon.
Ah like most things AI will augment but not fully replace. Imaging for example there is a lot of value in having AI augment a radiologist as AI can compare thousands/millions of images looking for areas that a radiologist can confirm as a simple example or the AI at the very least double checks and imagine that a radiologist all clears, etc.
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post 1596547721 01-28-2020, 08:49 AM
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Originally Posted By TappingTheZen⏩
Computers don't need to be 'programmed', just the algorithm for learning does.

Machine learning does this greatly, doctors are not safe.

There's literally a dude who started a medical company using only machine learning algorithms and 0 medical knowledge.
machine learning will MOG gp's to oblivion in the short term future. the only thing stopping them will be the healthcare/insurance provider syndicate.
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post 1596547751 01-28-2020, 08:49 AM
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Originally Posted By janglingjack⏩
Would rather a robot doctor checking my prostate than a ****gy human
Lmao would be pretty scary I bet bending over and seeing the ass probe bot roll toward you though.
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post 1596547801 01-28-2020, 08:50 AM
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Originally Posted By AltarOfPlagues⏩
machine learning will MOG gp's to oblivion in the short term future. the only thing stopping them will be the healthcare/insurance provider syndicate.
Machine learning will mog near enough every job into oblivion in the next 30 years, the only limitation is computer power and time. I think many of those who aren't involved in development/software engineering or the field in general really don't quite grasp how powerful machine learning is, and how easy the algorithms are to write. All you need is power, time, and a bunch of data to throw at the algorithm.
post 1596548161 01-28-2020, 08:55 AM
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Originally Posted By TappingTheZen⏩
Machine learning will mog near enough every job into oblivion in the next 30 years, the only limitation is computer power and time. I think many of those who aren't involved in development/software engineering or the field in general really don't quite grasp how powerful machine learning is, and how easy the algorithms are to write. All you need is power, time, and a bunch of data to throw at the algorithm.
How long before we have sci-fi medical pods where you lay in them punch a few buttons for the procedure you want and the thing starts slicing and dicing?
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post 1596548451 01-28-2020, 08:58 AM
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Originally Posted By JoshSP1985⏩
How long before we have sci-fi medical pods where you lay in them punch a few buttons for the procedure you want and the thing starts slicing and dicing?
arent lasik now did thru automation?

futures here boyo
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post 1596548461 01-28-2020, 08:58 AM
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Originally Posted By JoshSP1985⏩
How long before we have sci-fi medical pods where you lay in them punch a few buttons for the procedure you want and the thing starts slicing and dicing?
lol, no fkin clue but that is outside the current scope of machine learning :P
post 1596548711 01-28-2020, 09:00 AM
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post 1596548871 01-28-2020, 09:02 AM
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Originally Posted By BloodFireDeath⏩
Hundreds of years down the line? Maybe. Not in this century though.

We don't have enough information about the human physiology, disease processes etc as it is. How are we going to input it into computers and let them take care of it. Unless AI surpasses human intelligence and learns everything on its own. At which point technology would have already passed the point where we need to care of our bodies.
That's what machine learning is... also do you even Moore's law?
post 1596549021 01-28-2020, 09:03 AM
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Originally Posted By Hardlifter9⏩
We can't even have a computer read an EKG properly or implement EMR changes without a thousand issues. Having a robot that can just suture isn't even on the horizon. Maybe in 100+ years.
You saying computers just shows you don't have a clue what's coming. They're already experimenting with surgical robots right now. Again another person who thinks this is hundreds of year out.. Moore's law.
post 1596549231 01-28-2020, 09:07 AM
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Not how it works. They will use AI for the patients who do fit an algorithm and the ones who don't will still see doctors. But that will decrease the number of doctors needed.

And actually, medicine is not that good at helping with problems that are not straightforward or template. Syndromes are defined to add structure to doctor's jobs so they can treat entire large groups of patients the same way, even if they have different things wrong with them.
post 1596550141 01-28-2020, 09:18 AM
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Originally Posted By Didlid⏩
Practicing AI now and it's lulzy how clueless OP is when it comes to the capabilities of AI.

Your reasoning is the exact reason that AI can replace doctors.

Once we get sensors to monitor the entire human body in a lightweight format. It's just a case of feeding all of that data into algorithms and letting that find the patterns.

In lahmens terms you can feed massive amounts of data into a neural network and it can find the patterns that humans would never in a million years be capable of finding.

Input data for heart rate, blood pressure, previous illnesses, nutrition, oxygen levels... etc etc and the 'AI' would be able to calculate if what you are taking is benefitting or causing other problems in the patient. Completely autonomously. You just dont understand machine learning, deep learning or anything else OP which makes it seem like it's too hard to do with a computer.

Machine learning isnt giving a computer a set of instructions its giving a computer data and it figures out the correct thing to do with that data such as relationships between 1000s of variables. Something a doctor could never do without a machine.


Doctors will always be needed however they will and already are being massively assisted by ML/AI
Originally Posted By BHall1991⏩
You saying computers just shows you don't have a clue what's coming. They're already experimenting with surgical robots right now. Again another person who thinks this is hundreds of year out.. Moore's law.
Lol show me an EKG reading AI first or an AI that can suture a wound. You guys can't even automate the most routine daily things at any level let alone implement it across the country. It's like trying going from a 1990s Corolla to a self driving car overnight.

FYI we've had computers reading EKGs for decades. I brought this point up like 6 years ago when miscers said "herp derp AI." We still read our own EKGs. And everyone is still doing their own suturing. And you want to tell me that your AI is going to read a cardiac MRI and implement a treatment plan for a patient with HOCM? Or manage my transplant patient who is septic?

You can experiment all you want. We've experimented with all sorts of medical automation even back in the 2000s. None even made it to one hospital let alone across the country.
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post 1596551211 01-28-2020, 09:31 AM
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#83
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I kind of realized we were doomed when we started using robotic technologies in the operating room. Doctors are using robots to navigate through the body. Essentially directly imputing controls into a machine designed to learn. Robots will eventually replace doctors based on the cost alone to pay doctors. You’ll walk up to a machine, it will perform a full body scan or run tests, spit out a diagnosis, and a prescription. You’ll go to a pharmacy, input a prescription, and the the robotic pharmacist will spit out your medicine.

You still will have a doctor, but they will be grossly underpaid from what they make now as our eventual robotic overlords do all of the work, and all of the money goes to the pharmaceutical companies rather than the doctors pockets. Big Pharma are the ones who make these machines, so they have every intention of making the most money they can. You think a doctor or robot actually cares about your feelings? Eventually one day you’ll get a computer screen telling you that you have terminal cancer and that’s it. Time and comfort costs money, which means the medical industry will try and cut that out too.
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post 1596551651 01-28-2020, 09:35 AM
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Doctors are quacks now

Only reason we need them is for surgery and to get drugs

I can diagnose and treat any disease myself via WebMD
post 1596551661 01-28-2020, 09:35 AM
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AI already figured out chess and poker.

Problem is unless you understand very specific innovation concepts like punctuated equilibrium and non-linearity, you think AI progresses like:

2-4-6-8

In reality it's like:

1-2-4-6-8-12-24-48-96-300-600-3000-9000-100,000

Just 60 years ago there were computers weaker than the thing the average person pays for 10-20 hours of labor (smartphone) that were the size of a room. Innovation is only going to get crazier once quantum computers are a thing.

There's no reason to worry because if you are a doctor you have proven yourself to be high IQ and industrious, but no one is safe in the least.
post 1596551981 01-28-2020, 09:38 AM
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Originally Posted By JStrez⏩
I kind of realized we were doomed when we started using robotic technologies in the operating room. Doctors are using robots to navigate through the body. Essentially directly imputing controls into a machine designed to learn. Robots will eventually replace doctors based on the cost alone to pay doctors. You’ll wake up to a machine, it will perform a full body scan or run tests, spit out a diagnosis, and a prescription. You’ll go to a pharmacy, input a prescription, and the the robotic pharmacist will spit out your medicine.

You still will have a doctor, but they will be grossly underpaid from what they make now as our eventual robotic overlords do all of the work, and all of the money goes to the pharmaceutical companies rather than the doctors pockets. Big Pharma are the ones who make these machines, so they have every intention of making the most money they can.
The monetary incentive on that end will definitely be huge. People talk about tradies being replaced by robots, but it makes a lot more $$$ sense to focus on replacing $300-400k/year medical professionals than carpenters and drywallers making $25/hr
post 1596552191 01-28-2020, 09:39 AM
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Originally Posted By JStrez⏩
I kind of realized we were doomed when we started using robotic technologies in the operating room. Doctors are using robots to navigate through the body. Essentially directly imputing controls into a machine designed to learn. Robots will eventually replace doctors based on the cost alone to pay doctors. You’ll walk up to a machine, it will perform a full body scan or run tests, spit out a diagnosis, and a prescription. You’ll go to a pharmacy, input a prescription, and the the robotic pharmacist will spit out your medicine.

You still will have a doctor, but they will be grossly underpaid from what they make now as our eventual robotic overlords do all of the work, and all of the money goes to the pharmaceutical companies rather than the doctors pockets. Big Pharma are the ones who make these machines, so they have every intention of making the most money they can. You think a doctor or robot actually cares about your feelings? Eventually one day you’ll get a computer screen telling you that you have terminal cancer and that’s it. Time and comfort costs money, which means the medical industry will try and cut that out too.
Robotic surgery is grossly overrated and many people don't even train with it. It's also of limited utility in so many cases and costs way too much to use.
FYI, you do realize robotic surgery still needs a surgeon and often has ANOTHER surgeon first assisting? You need 2 surgeons on top of the robot.

And your idea of scanning the body for a diagnosis is literal science-fiction.
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post 1596552241 01-28-2020, 09:40 AM
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Originally Posted By Hardlifter9⏩
Lol show me an EKG reading AI first or an AI that can suture a wound. You guys can't even automate the most routine daily things at any level let alone implement it across the country. It's like trying going from a 1990s Corolla to a self driving car overnight.

FYI we've had computers reading EKGs for decades. I brought this point up like 6 years ago when miscers said "herp derp AI." We still read our own EKGs. And everyone is still doing their own suturing. And you want to tell me that your AI is going to read a cardiac MRI and implement a treatment plan for a patient with HOCM? Or manage my transplant patient who is septic?

You can experiment all you want. We've experimented with all sorts of medical automation even back in the 2000s. None even made it to one hospital let alone across the country.
you are not even trying to understand AGI or machine learning.

machines aren't going to unclog toilets or stitch people up in the near future. we will still require mechanic functionaries. much of medicine is prescriptive and much of that is based on data. machine learning can readily access and analyze large data sets (far more quickly and far deeper than you can dream).

put it this way. any pieces of healthcare that can be remotely analogous to chess tactic and strategy will be overtaken by algorithms. many people also said a computer would never beat a human in chess because the moves were too complex.

prescription medicines is already ripe for machine learning to outperform doctors, fundamentally.


"but but but a computer cant put a catheter in your dick"
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post 1596552731 01-28-2020, 09:45 AM
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Originally Posted By AltarOfPlagues⏩
you are not even trying to understand AGI or machine learning.

machines aren't going to unclog toilets or stitch people up in the near future. we will still require mechanic functionaries. much of medicine is prescriptive and much of that is based on data. machine learning can readily access and analyze large data sets (far more quickly and far deeper than you can dream).

put it this way. any pieces of healthcare that can be remotely analogous to chess tactic and strategy will be overtaken by algorithms. many people also said a computer would never beat a human in chess because the moves were too complex.

prescription medicines is already ripe for machine learning to outperform doctors, fundamentally.


"but but but a computer cant put a catheter in your dick"
So then implement it. There's a difference between lab experiments and real life market utility. What you're talking about goes beyond the scope of our generation.

FYI, why ignore my critical liability question? Who gets sued? Until you can answer that and make legal and logistic sense, it's a moot point.
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post 1596552891 01-28-2020, 09:46 AM
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Originally Posted By Hardlifter9⏩
So then implement it. There's a difference between lab experiments and real life market utility. What you're talking about goes beyond the scope of our generation.

FYI, why ignore my critical liability question? Who gets sued? Until you can answer that and make legal and logistic sense, it's a moot point.
yes the structure of medical and scientific revolutions have always revolved around liability.

to hold your hand: the same people get sued who get sued now. medical practitioners, insurance providers, and in the future, programmers. everyone gets sued.

you have an extreme meatbag bias

do you find most doctors are arrogant pricks or is it just that those are the ones who do all the talking?
do not read my posts and weep, i am not there i do not sleep
i am the thousand greens that rep, i am the ban bet dutifully kept
of memes and trolls in toasted breads, i am not there, i am not dead.
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