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Forum » Practicing medicine now, I see just how immune doctors are from AI/automation (srs)
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Thread: Practicing medicine now, I see just how immune doctors are from AI/automation (srs)

post 1596676421 01-29-2020, 10:53 PM
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Originally Posted By MBisonSon⏩
You think it'd be easier to sell the idea of an unbiased computer or an unbiased person?



LOL
. can't answer the question. ok. I was just curious
post 1596676461 01-29-2020, 10:55 PM
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Yikes! Stirred the tin-foil hat miscers with this one OP! I agree with you btw

Not sure what surgical field p100 works in but there is no chance in hell that most surgical specialities will be replaced by AI in the near future. Robot assisted =/= AI replacing us...

Question for the AI nerds - can you confidently predict that future AI can or will able to learn empathy such as a Human?

Can you tell me that AI (without being programmed too) will be governed by the principles of autonomy, beneficence, non-malifacence and justice?


Sick people (not just injuries and the minor ****ing ailments most of you retards have seen doctors for!) don't just want to be 'fixed' - they need care, compassion, humanity.

This is the 'Art' of medicine.

Will a machine be able to take the hand of a dying patients wife and comfort them? Will they be able to break the news to a 48 year old Woman diagnosed with Stage 4 breast cancer that despite all surgery and adjunct therapy she likely won't live to see her sons 21's birthday?

These things I don't forseee AI ever being able to do.

Just for these reasons alone I would suspect that the MAJORITY of the normal population would prefer something so intimate as seeing a Doctor left to Humans.
Plastic/Reconstructive =/= Cosmetic Surgery....

*Mod negged survivor*

Here for a laugh and to escape the grind, don't take too much of what I say too seriously.

Look after your health/body, we only get one shot at it
post 1596676631 01-29-2020, 11:00 PM
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Originally Posted By BOZZ⏩
towards anything.

if you have nothing that guarantees there is no bias what's the point? It's fine until your AI starts excluding treatment for whatever reason and there is no failsafe on that.
There is no fail safe?Well, is there a fail safe on human doctors? A surgeon has almost unlimited autonomy in the OR, where's the fail safe?

Like I said previously, AI does not have to be PERFECT, it just has to be as good as or better than the human mind. The human mind is not perfect.Perfection is not possible via either domain.
post 1596677171 01-29-2020, 11:14 PM
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Originally Posted By xXGHOST23Xx⏩
There is no fail safe?Well, is there a fail safe on human doctors? A surgeon has almost unlimited autonomy in the OR, where's the fail safe?

Like I said previously, AI does not have to be PERFECT, it just has to be as good as or better than the human mind. The human mind is not perfect.Perfection is not possible via either domain.
Can't answer the question. ok. i was just curious
post 1596677431 01-29-2020, 11:23 PM
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Originally Posted By BOZZ⏩
Can't answer the question. ok. i was just curious
I did answer, your question. With another question.....

Is there a universal and reliable fail safe on human doctors?

Cant answer my question. ok. i was just curious
post 1596677751 01-29-2020, 11:36 PM
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Originally Posted By xXGHOST23Xx⏩
I did answer, your question. With another question.....

Is there a universal and reliable fail safe on human doctors?

Cant answer my question. ok. i was just curious
hospitals have M&Ms in the event something goes wrong. Most also have quality officers that review and evaluate. So for the most part there is a failsafe

I patiently await an actual answer
post 1596677881 01-29-2020, 11:41 PM
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Originally Posted By BOZZ⏩
hospitals have M&Ms in the event something goes wrong. Most also have quality officers that review and evaluate. So for the most part there is a failsafe

I patiently await an actual answer
Thats not a fail safe.Who is going to tell a surgeon, in the OR, at 3am to stop what he is doing because it is incorrect and lethal? Thats an after the fact quality control.

As if AI cant have M&Ms and Quality control software engineers on premise 24/7. there's your answer.

Now, whats your point?
post 1596678051 01-29-2020, 11:44 PM
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Originally Posted By TurbanMon⏩
There was the case of the Neuroseurgeon who was purposely screwing up surgeries to kill/disable patients and the Nurse stopped him mid surgery.
generalizable and reliable or anecdotal evidence?

How many surgeries did he screw up until the nurse stopped him? The damage is already done bruh.... Thats not a perfect fail safe
post 1596678081 01-29-2020, 11:44 PM
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Originally Posted By xXGHOST23Xx⏩
Thats not a fail safe.Who is going to tell a surgeon, in the OR, at 3am to stop what he is doing because it is incorrect and lethal? Thats an after the fact quality control.

As if AI cant have M&Ms and Quality control software engineers on premise 24/7. there's your answer.

Now, whats your point?
So if you're going to have M&Ms then you'll need actual Doctors so Doctors aren't really going anywhere?

Or will there be an algorithm to evaluate the algorithm?
post 1596678131 01-29-2020, 11:46 PM
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Originally Posted By BOZZ⏩
So if you're going to have M&Ms then you'll need actual Doctors so Doctors aren't really going anywhere?

Or will there be an algorithm to evaluate the algorithm?
I never said doctors would be excluded from the picture entirely, I hold the view that they will have a limited role in the future with the AI doing the heavy lifting. Fewer doctors to be hired.
post 1596678571 01-29-2020, 11:58 PM
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Originally Posted By SurgeonBrah⏩
Yikes! Stirred the tin-foil hat miscers with this one OP! I agree with you btw

Not sure what surgical field p100 works in but there is no chance in hell that most surgical specialities will be replaced by AI in the near future. Robot assisted =/= AI replacing us...

Question for the AI nerds - can you confidently predict that future AI can or will able to learn empathy such as a Human?

Can you tell me that AI (without being programmed too) will be governed by the principles of autonomy, beneficence, non-malifacence and justice?


Sick people (not just injuries and the minor ****ing ailments most of you retards have seen doctors for!) don't just want to be 'fixed' - they need care, compassion, humanity.

This is the 'Art' of medicine.

Will a machine be able to take the hand of a dying patients wife and comfort them? Will they be able to break the news to a 48 year old Woman diagnosed with Stage 4 breast cancer that despite all surgery and adjunct therapy she likely won't live to see her sons 21's birthday?

These things I don't forseee AI ever being able to do.

Just for these reasons alone I would suspect that the MAJORITY of the normal population would prefer something so intimate as seeing a Doctor left to Humans.
End thread right here.

There has been no reply to this. Ive mentioned autonomy, justice, beneficence, consent, capacity, maleficence on 4 occasions now and crickets
post 1596678601 01-30-2020, 12:00 AM
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post 1596678641 01-30-2020, 12:00 AM
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Originally Posted By xXGHOST23Xx⏩
I never said doctors would be excluded from the picture entirely, I hold the view that they will have a limited role in the future with the AI doing the heavy lifting. Fewer doctors to be hired.
Lmao. In America in 300 years sure. You think thailand will have said AI treating patients? Because i know where the ‘non hired’ doctors will go and open up clinics etc. The world is getting older my friend
post 1596678761 01-30-2020, 12:03 AM
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It's cause your question is stupid.

BRB give me detailed schematics on machines that may possibly exist in the future.

If you can't do that then you're wrong

Who do I sound like right now?

BRB let me go invent the machine to prove you wrong.

What a ****ing Bermuda Triangle of logic this thread is.
The billionaire and the beggar both have 24 hours in a day.

That's why grandma's apple pie rocks and yours sucks.
Originally Posted By Dave22reborn
At least it will thunderstorm tonight, and we know how they feel about water. :)
^^^Racist police officer who also cries about how racism doesn't exist, also cries reverse racism and typifies the stupidity of the racist right, referring to black people as "they" and regurgitating racist stereotypes.
post 1596678881 01-30-2020, 12:09 AM
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Originally Posted By xXGHOST23Xx⏩
I did answer, your question. With another question.....

Is there a universal and reliable fail safe on human doctors?

Cant answer my question. ok. i was just curious
There are multiple failsafes built into the systems we use. No system is 100% error free though - this is impossible.

When an error occurs in medicine it is usually because of what we term the 'Swiss-Cheese model'

ie - many seperate 'errors' or miscalculations or misinterpretations stack on top of one another to result in patient harm

This is why in Medicine there is usually no individual blame attributed to error that causes harm
- we recognise that there has been a failure in our system somewhere, audit the process to find where we can improve, implement these changes, repeat the process.

I don't believe that there would be any difference if the system was operated by AI - failures of the system would still occur.
Plastic/Reconstructive =/= Cosmetic Surgery....

*Mod negged survivor*

Here for a laugh and to escape the grind, don't take too much of what I say too seriously.

Look after your health/body, we only get one shot at it
post 1596678891 01-30-2020, 12:09 AM
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Originally Posted By MBisonSon⏩
It's cause your question is stupid.

BRB give me detailed schematics on machines that may possibly exist in the future.

If you can't do that then you're wrong

Who do I sound like right now?

BRB let me go invent the machine to prove you wrong.

What a ****ing Bermuda Triangle of logic this thread is.
Then you are speculating and nothing more.

In the future doctors will have enhanced brains by plugging in that will make then infinitely better than AI. Why isnt that possible? But what you are claiming is?
post 1596678901 01-30-2020, 12:09 AM
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Originally Posted By MBisonSon⏩
It's cause your question is stupid.

BRB give me detailed schematics on machines that may possibly exist in the future.

If you can't do that then you're wrong

Who do I sound like right now?

BRB let me go invent the machine to prove you wrong.

What a ****ing Bermuda Triangle of logic this thread is.
It's either A or B though!!! Oh wait it's not that simple and you have no answers. lol I guess I'm just asking questions you can't understand. That's on YOU
post 1596679041 01-30-2020, 12:15 AM
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there is some coping ITT and a severe underestimation of AI/machine learning/robotics.

Primitive level AI like google's Alpha Zero can beat witheasethe best chess grandmasters and Stockfish (3000+ elo) with 4-10 hours of match simulation. Another primitive AI in OpenAI can beat the best Dota 2 players in the world with a minimal match simulation - this is a game that has endless combinations of inputs like positioning, timing, itemisation etc.

While medical specialists would be one of the last to go, once things get on a roll, the gap between the middle and last won't be very long. Surgery is actually one of the best use cases for robotics.

Ironically the only professions that may remain will be content creators: artists, athletes, musicians, TV/movie creators, authors, chefs etc, and this is questionable. Eventually, through machine learning, robots will be able to create content that is indistinguishable from humans. The professions above will only remain if there is a desire from humans to usehumancreated content.
post 1596679121 01-30-2020, 12:17 AM
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Originally Posted By mandarino⏩
Then you are speculating and nothing more.

In the future doctors will have enhanced brains by plugging in that will make then infinitely better than AI. Why isnt that possible? But what you are claiming is?
It technically is Timmy.

I'm just saying what sounds feasible to me in 100 years.


Just like you're speculating that it won't happen.

The real difference here is that you're acting as if technological advancement will just stop dead in it's tracks.

Meanwhile completely ignoring technological advancements just in your lifetime, let alone over last 50, 100, etc years.

IDK what to tell you other than it strikes me as you being willfully ignorant.
The billionaire and the beggar both have 24 hours in a day.

That's why grandma's apple pie rocks and yours sucks.
Originally Posted By Dave22reborn
At least it will thunderstorm tonight, and we know how they feel about water. :)
^^^Racist police officer who also cries about how racism doesn't exist, also cries reverse racism and typifies the stupidity of the racist right, referring to black people as "they" and regurgitating racist stereotypes.
post 1596679211 01-30-2020, 12:21 AM
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Originally Posted By Serenadium⏩
there is some coping ITT and a severe underestimation of AI/machine learning/robotics.

Primitive level AI like google's Alpha Zero can beat witheasethe best chess grandmasters and Stockfish (3000+ elo) with 4-10 hours of match simulation. Another primitive AI in OpenAI can beat the best Dota 2 players in the world with a minimal match simulation - this is a game that has endless combinations of inputs like positioning, timing, itemisation etc.

While medical specialists would be one of the last to go, once things get on a roll, the gap between the middle and last won't be very long. Surgery is actually one of the best use cases for robotics.

Ironically the only professions that may remain will be content creators: artists, athletes, musicians, TV/movie creators, authors, chefs etc, and this is questionable. Eventually, through machine learning, robots will be able to create content that is indistinguishable from humans. The professions above will only remain if there is a desire from humans to usehumancreated content.
Surgery is one of the best cases because like a chessboard the item at hand is ‘static’ unconscious’ ‘nonresponsive’ ‘sedated’. And even then there is complexity to that. How will the surgeon robot talk to the anasthetic robot and the nurse robot? All the while the husband is there yelling at them while they perform a c section? Who is right who is wrong etc
post 1596679291 01-30-2020, 12:23 AM
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Originally Posted By BOZZ⏩
It's either A or B though!!! Oh wait it's not that simple and you have no answers. lol I guess I'm just asking questions you can't understand. That's on YOU
Hurr Durr no you're just asking questions that can't be answered.

The fact that you're proudly standing behind such a juvenile attempt at making a point is laughable.

I seriously hope this is just a poor attempt at trolling from you.

I'm not about to get into "I know you are but what am I" type responses, where this looks to be headed with you.
The billionaire and the beggar both have 24 hours in a day.

That's why grandma's apple pie rocks and yours sucks.
Originally Posted By Dave22reborn
At least it will thunderstorm tonight, and we know how they feel about water. :)
^^^Racist police officer who also cries about how racism doesn't exist, also cries reverse racism and typifies the stupidity of the racist right, referring to black people as "they" and regurgitating racist stereotypes.
post 1596679321 01-30-2020, 12:23 AM
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Originally Posted By MBisonSon⏩
It technically is Timmy.

I'm just saying what sounds feasible to me in 100 years.


Just like you're speculating that it won't happen.

The real difference here is that you're acting as if technological advancement will just stop dead in it's tracks.

Meanwhile completely ignoring technological advancements just in your lifetime, let alone over last 50, 100, etc years.

IDK what to tell you other than it strikes me as you being willfully ignorant.
On the contrary. I am aware of technology. You cant explain a lot of questions because you admit its not ‘invented’ yet.

Its just as likely for AI to take over a docs job as is for us to have prosthetics like in starwars, or cure blindness/deafness, or for my brain to be hooked up and enhancing my knowledge. Its all likely and possible
post 1596679441 01-30-2020, 12:27 AM
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Originally Posted By mandarino⏩
On the contrary. I am aware of technology. You cant explain a lot of questions because you admit its not ‘invented’ yet.

Its just as likely for AI to take over a docs job as is for us to have prosthetics like in starwars, or cure blindness/deafness, or for my brain to be hooked up and enhancing my knowledge. Its all likely and possible
LMFAO but now you're being facetious to the point of coming off as a moron.

You're crossing from a discussion into trolling territory, because you don't have anything of use to contribute anymore.

Now you're kinda just hanging around in here talking just to hear yourself talk.
The billionaire and the beggar both have 24 hours in a day.

That's why grandma's apple pie rocks and yours sucks.
Originally Posted By Dave22reborn
At least it will thunderstorm tonight, and we know how they feel about water. :)
^^^Racist police officer who also cries about how racism doesn't exist, also cries reverse racism and typifies the stupidity of the racist right, referring to black people as "they" and regurgitating racist stereotypes.
post 1596679491 01-30-2020, 12:31 AM
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Originally Posted By MBisonSon⏩
Hurr Durr no you're just asking questions that can't be answered.

The fact that you're proudly standing behind such a juvenile attempt at making a point is laughable.

I seriously hope this is just a poor attempt at trolling from you.

I'm not about to get into "I know you are but what am I" type responses, where this looks to be headed with you.
I'm talking in the real world and you're talking about hypotheticals with known issues as though it's a certainty. I'm trolling though. ok...You haven't answered a single question other than with your "it's a or b" bull****. You've lost and brought nothing of substance to the conversation
post 1596679511 01-30-2020, 12:32 AM
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Originally Posted By MBisonSon⏩
LMFAO but now you're being facetious to the point of coming off as a moron.

You're crossing from a discussion into trolling territory, because you don't have anything of use to contribute anymore.

Now you're kinda just hanging around in here talking just to hear yourself talk.
I fail to see what i said is trolling. I used your own words. And im explaining what i think is feasible in 100 years to me. You in fact have nothing more to contribute so you accused me of something instead of having a constructive convo
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Originally Posted By mandarino⏩
I fail to see what i said is trolling. I used your own words. And im explaining what i think is feasible in 100 years to me. You in fact have nothing more to contribute so you accused me of something instead of having a constructive convo
He doesn't have a response because he's speaking purely in hypotheticals in a field he clearly has little knowledge of.
post 1596679561 01-30-2020, 12:34 AM
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Originally Posted By Serenadium⏩
there is some coping ITT and a severe underestimation of AI/machine learning/robotics.

Primitive level AI like google's Alpha Zero can beat witheasethe best chess grandmasters and Stockfish (3000+ elo) with 4-10 hours of match simulation. Another primitive AI in OpenAI can beat the best Dota 2 players in the world with a minimal match simulation - this is a game that has endless combinations of inputs like positioning, timing, itemisation etc.

While medical specialists would be one of the last to go, once things get on a roll, the gap between the middle and last won't be very long. Surgery is actually one of the best use cases for robotics.

Ironically the only professions that may remain will be content creators: artists, athletes, musicians, TV/movie creators, authors, chefs etc, and this is questionable. Eventually, through machine learning, robots will be able to create content that is indistinguishable from humans. The professions above will only remain if there is a desire from humans to use human created content.
You know nothing of Surgery and Medicine to make a statement like this.


Also, don't confuse robotics and AI - the former is currently and effectively used in certain procedures although the long term outcomes are generally not significantly superior than if the procedures were performed without robotic assistance or other non-robotic techniques were used.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect
Plastic/Reconstructive =/= Cosmetic Surgery....

*Mod negged survivor*

Here for a laugh and to escape the grind, don't take too much of what I say too seriously.

Look after your health/body, we only get one shot at it
post 1596679611 01-30-2020, 12:35 AM
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Originally Posted By mandarino⏩
Surgery is one of the best cases because like a chessboard the item at hand is ‘static’ unconscious’ ‘nonresponsive’ ‘sedated’. And even then there is complexity to that. How will the surgeon robot talk to the anasthetic robot and the nurse robot? All the while the husband is there yelling at them while they perform a c section? Who is right who is wrong etc
You just proved the case for AI/robotics.

The robot will:
- Through machine learning + endless data input, robots will examine and analyse the patient to a far greater level of detail than a human ever could resulting in a far stronger chance of a successful operation.
- Talking to nurses/specialists? this is not even an issue. Putting aside information input/output for a robot is a trivial challenge and a strength (i.e. exchange of a huge amount of information in nanoseconds), the robot wouldn't need support staff - this is a human limitation. A robot can have en endless amount of functions that is limited only by the fleeting time they need to 'learn'. They will eventually learn to do everything need in the medical room.
- Husband yelling at them?, why the robot would just ignore this and proceed as per protocol. A human could be distracted and create complications.
post 1596679651 01-30-2020, 12:39 AM
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Originally Posted By Serenadium⏩
You just proved the case for AI/robotics.

The robot will:
- Through machine learning + endless data input, robots will examine and analyse the patient to a far greater level of detail than a human ever could resulting in a far stronger chance of a successful operation.
- Talking to nurses/specialists? this is not even an issue. Putting aside information input/output for a robot is a trivial challenge and a strength (i.e. exchange of a huge amount of information in nanoseconds), the robot wouldn't need support staff - this is a human limitation. A robot can have en endless amount of functions that is limited only by the fleeting time they need to 'learn'. They will eventually learn to do everything need in the medical room.
- Husband yelling at them?, why the robot would just ignore this and proceed as per protocol. A human could be distracted and create complications.
What is your profession?

Have you ever been in an operating theatre?

Do you understand ANYTHING about performing even a basic operation?

Do you understand ANYTHING about interacting with another human???

Because from your response above it doesn't seem so...
Plastic/Reconstructive =/= Cosmetic Surgery....

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post 1596679681 01-30-2020, 12:39 AM
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#270
  1. mandarino
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  1. mandarino
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Originally Posted By Serenadium⏩
You just proved the case for AI/robotics.

The robot will:
- Through machine learning + endless data input, robots will examine and analyse the patient to a far greater level of detail than a human ever could resulting in a far stronger chance of a successful operation.
- Talking to nurses/specialists? this is not even an issue. Putting aside information input/output for a robot is a trivial challenge and a strength (i.e. exchange of a huge amount of information in nanoseconds), the robot wouldn't need support staff - this is a human limitation. They will eventually learn to do everything need in the medical room.
- Husband yelling at them?, why the robot would just ignore this and proceed as per protocol. A human could be distracted and create complications.
You cannot ignore the husband yelling! Maybe in the or you can kick them out but what about other examples. You must show a human ‘artistic’ aspect to it. You must. Otherwise you get complaints.

Dr didnt explain it well enough to me
Dr was rude
Dr threw me out of or
Patient gets a rare complication - dr didnt tell me about this, i was not informed bla bla bla

Yes there are things where it can help but until it does the ‘human’ bit then im skeptical. Feel free to say otherwise, but that other poster said thats impossible at the moment


The most cookie cutter example in history of medicine
Patient comes to doc for antibiotics for a simple cold. He absolutely wants/needs them. Brb throw him out lol
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