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Forum » Airlines want a bailout
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Thread: Airlines want a bailout

post 1600148341 03-18-2020, 09:20 PM
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Originally Posted By ErnieMccracken⏩
Pro tip: your business isn't healthy if you immediately go bankrupt at the first sign of trouble.
do you know how to read a balance sheet, equity statement, and cash flow statement? serious question
(these are my opinions i am not a licensed broker by trade)
post 1600149011 03-18-2020, 09:30 PM
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Originally Posted By 8pilot8⏩
How about you take some of the billions of dollars you made, making us all pay for our first and second checked bag, or banning checked bags, for crappy meals, for paying to select any seat, for being hours delayed and not giving any credit, retrofitting old planes to pack in more tiny seats and fist yourselves?

American Airlines in 2015, made a$7.6 billion profit— compared, for example, to profits of about $500 million in 2007 and less than $250 million in 2006. It earned billions in profit annually for the rest of the decade.
Instead Mussolini lover, and anti-constitutional s4itbag Trump is going to make the American people bail out the airlines, while he lies his ass off to us all with a confident, seemingly convincing demeanor.
"The reason we are being murdered with genetic altering drugs is its slow acting and it causes your body to malfunction and destroy itself so there is a "plausible deniability" factor. Unlike most poisons which leave more evidence of being the direct cause of death."

1,151+ pages of peoples accounts of Covid-19 vaccine damage:
https://vestibular.org/forum/dizziness/covid-19-vaccine-side-effects/
post 1600149511 03-18-2020, 09:37 PM
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This would be a good time to fire all the Union flight attendants so they can get costs down to reasonable competitive levels. There’s no reason Spirit should be 50% the price of Delta in many cases.
post 1600149751 03-18-2020, 09:40 PM
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Originally Posted By VegasLifter26⏩
do you know how to read a balance sheet, equity statement, and cash flow statement? serious question
I literally have degrees in finance and accounting and worked in corp finance for 10 years. So yes. I've created more financial statements that I can remember. I assume you have a similar background??
post 1600150111 03-18-2020, 09:46 PM
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If Boeing doesn't get it they will go backrupt.. Not sure why this is even an argument most of these companies we need and can't afford to go under. OP is a socialist that's mad at a company doing well. Fuk Amazon too right they made too much money
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post 1600150281 03-18-2020, 09:49 PM
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Originally Posted By jmoneyjumpman⏩
If Boeing doesn't get it they will go backrupt.. Not sure why this is even an argument most of these companies we need and can't afford to go under. OP is a socialist that's mad at a company doing well. Fuk Amazon too right they made too much money
You are calling him a socialist because he doesn't hink that taxpayer money should be used to bail out private businesses? Lmfao. If they fail, then they fail. Adios. Better luck next time.
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post 1600150411 03-18-2020, 09:52 PM
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Originally Posted By jmoneyjumpman⏩
If Boeing doesn't get it they will go backrupt.. Not sure why this is even an argument most of these companies we need and can't afford to go under. OP is a socialist that's mad at a company doing well. Fuk Amazon too right they made too much money
Competition from Amazon is the reason my initial business plans failed and ruined profits for brick and mortar stores and pretty much monopolized business in the world.

FUK you cuck
post 1600150501 03-18-2020, 09:52 PM
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Originally Posted By VegasLifter26⏩
Thanks for answering my question. Every sector is hurting right now and to try and blame those "evil execs" for this is just ignorant. Airlines were healthy before this, tell me which public or private sectors were adequately prepared for a virus pandemic..?
Don't really have dog in this fight, but im a chef and the owner of our restaurant is taking a hit as well. I doubt he gets much money and doubt even more that he takes any money he/the company gets and gives himself a bonus. I think that's the huge underlying problem here. In a sense these giant corporations are being rewarded to fail with no consequences
post 1600150801 03-18-2020, 09:57 PM
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Originally Posted By ErnieMccracken⏩
I literally have degrees in finance and accounting and worked in corp finance for 10 years. So yes. I've created more financial statements that I can remember. I assume you have a similar background??
lol in the healthcare thread you said you worked in healthcare field for 10 years...you fraudin?
Originally Posted By wrastler163⏩
Don't really have dog in this fight, but im a chef and the owner of our restaurant is taking a hit as well. I doubt he gets much money and doubt even more that he takes any money he/the company gets and gives himself a bonus. I think that's the huge underlying problem here. In a sense these giant corporations are being rewarded to fail with no consequences
Did I ever say that the CEO's should be able to give themselves bonuses? No, I just said they need financing to be able to survive this temporary pandemic. No offense but our economy can survive with less restaurants. It cant survive without airplanes.
(these are my opinions i am not a licensed broker by trade)
post 1600150951 03-18-2020, 09:59 PM
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Originally Posted By VegasLifter26⏩
lol in the healthcare thread you said you worked in healthcare field for 10 years...you fraudin?
Was a senior finance r&d analyst for a healthcare device manufacturer.
post 1600151221 03-18-2020, 10:04 PM
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Delta is about to park half of its fleet (600 planes)

https://www.usatoday.com/story/trave...ts/2863432001/
Your life will never be a straight path.”
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“And when you fall throughout life, fall forward.”
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post 1600153051 03-18-2020, 10:40 PM
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Originally Posted By enzo818⏩
Lmaooo, keep saying that to yourself while you think Boeing is an airline LMAO
This. Wheen you look at it, they're not even really an airplane manufacturer.

Applied for a dozen jobs with them last month, and not a single one of them had anything to do with a plane. A major portion of the company is effectively an extension of govt/military R&D - satellites, missiles, spaceship rockets, etc. Looking it up on a Google now, 45% of their income comes from their defense and space contracts.

Their 737/Dreamliner type chit is effectively its own business (that's getting hammered) that's wedded to an equally large defense contractor sharing the same name.
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post 1600154301 03-18-2020, 11:01 PM
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Originally Posted By ErnieMccracken⏩
Which is a good incentive for conservative financial planning during good times, not dumping everything into buybacks to pump the stock price so your options are worth 8 figures.

If there ever was a time to let them fail, it's now. No hurry to get people flying around the world right this second. Use that money to tide over laid off employees until they can be rehired by whoever pops up to meet demand after liquidation.
It's impossible for them to save enough money to survive an event like this. Discussed that 1st page. I'd reckon that a "senior financial analyst" would understand that.
Originally Posted By samsbolton⏩
Why? It’s convenient but it’s a long way from essential. We don’t HAVE to live removed from family/friends. Cargo can continue. Tourism, pah
Do you even business travel, brah?

For an example: a friend of mine works for a Swiss/French company that has an office in Houston. Every so often, they send over execs to check on them, or bring engineers from a different division over to collaborate with the Houston brahs to make sure the French part and the Houston parts are compatible and both on schedule.

If domestic airlines and airports close, you think they're going to spend 2 weeks on a boat every time they want to check in on their Houston office, then 2 weeks coming back? Fuuuk no. They're going to close that sucker, fire 100 US workers, and reopen a new location in Europe. Rinse and repeat for every company that does business internationally. Removing air travel is effectively removing yourself from the rest of the world's economy.

"But Skype and email."

Why would I restrict myself to only Skypeing and emailing Americans when every other country will let me Skype and email themandfly my people in whenever I want.
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post 1600154611 03-18-2020, 11:06 PM
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Obviously the airlines screwed up. That said, we bailed out the banks, they paid the government back plus interest. I'm sure a similar scenario would happen with the airlines and we are going to need airline travel to function as a society in the modern age and a speedy economic recovery when this all passes.

Maybe a case should be made for nationalizing something that's too large for for there to be much competition in and is a required aspect of society. Though that would be a different discussion.
post 1600154651 03-18-2020, 11:06 PM
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Originally Posted By FA*******⏩
It's impossible for them to save enough money to survive an event like this. Discussed that 1st page. I'd reckon that a "senior financial analyst" would understand that.
Then they need a new business model. This isn't rocket surgery. A business that relies on government handouts during every economic downturn isn't a business that should be allowed to exist.
post 1600154661 03-18-2020, 11:06 PM
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Originally Posted By Contribution05⏩
Obviously the airlines screwed up. That said, we bailed out the banks, they paid the government back plus interest. I'm sure a similar scenario would happen with the airlines and we are going to need airline travel to function as a society in the modern age and a speedy economic recovery when this all passes.

Maybe a case should be made for nationalizing something that's too large for for there to be much competition in and is a required aspect of society. Though that would be a different discussion.
may i ask how they screwed up?
(these are my opinions i am not a licensed broker by trade)
post 1600155561 03-18-2020, 11:21 PM
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Originally Posted By ErnieMccracken⏩
Then they need a new business model. This isn't rocket surgery. A business that relies on government handouts during every economic downturn isn't a business that should be allowed to exist.
The only way they could survive is by raising their income by 10% or more while raising their expenses by 0%. Doing that for 10 years and hoarding every dime in cash reserves would allow them to survive a once-a-decade black swan like 9/11 or coronavirus for one year. But demand curves don't let you magically get 10% more money for free.

Theotherway to prevent these kind of crises with airlines would be to nationalize them, but given how most governments have chosen to divest themselves of their national airlines - British Airways, Air France, Pan Am got destroyed as soon as the US let other airlines start competing with it, etc - I think we've already been down this road and seen that it doesn't work well either.
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post 1600155681 03-18-2020, 11:23 PM
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Originally Posted By VegasLifter26⏩
may i ask how they screwed up?
They spent the majority of their profits and have no reserves. I saw the argument on the first page, and understand airlines have high operating costs. Also using their normal day operating costs is going to be a lot higher than what current day operating costs are going to be if they are able to get by with less flights and less staff/man hours.

So yes, they could have had at least somewhat of rainy day fund and they chose to have pretty much none at all. Might they have still required some assistance? Maybe, but asking for $10-20 billion doesn't sound as much as asking for $50 billion.

"Dad, I saved up money, but times are rough, I need $500 to get me through a rough patch."

vs

"Dad, i decided to not have cash savings at all, and got wrecked, i need $5,000"
post 1600155841 03-18-2020, 11:26 PM
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Originally Posted By Contribution05⏩
They spent the majority of their profits and have no reserves. I saw the argument on the first page, and understand airlines have high operating costs. Also using their normal day operating costs is going to be a lot higher than what current day operating costs are going to be if they are able to get by with less flights and less staff/man hours.

So yes, they could have had at least somewhat of rainy day fund and they chose to have pretty much none at all. Might they have still required some assistance? Maybe, but asking for $10-20 billion doesn't sound as much as asking for $50 billion.
Do you know where the profits went? Just because an evil greedy company spend their profits doesnt mean its not going back INTO the company. Maybe it was for R&D , maybe it was to shareholders...did you know Delta has been steadily increasing their dividends every single year. Cash does not generate any money just sitting around.
(these are my opinions i am not a licensed broker by trade)
post 1600155941 03-18-2020, 11:28 PM
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Originally Posted By VegasLifter26⏩
Do you know where the profits went? Just because an evil greedy company spend their profits doesnt mean its not going back INTO the company. Maybe it was for R&D , maybe it was to shareholders...did you know Delta has been steadily increasing their dividends every single year.
Maybe they shouldn't have been increasing dividends and been saving money to make the stock more secure and resistant to such times that could potentially collapse a stock if the company isn't saved by the government. I'm not anti businesses and rich people. Again comes down to, the the fact it sounds like they have very little cash balance and even smaller events than this could have wiped them out.
post 1600156021 03-18-2020, 11:30 PM
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Originally Posted By Contribution05⏩
Maybe they shouldn't have been increasing dividends and been saving money to make the stock more secure and resistant to such times that could potentially collapse a stock if the company isn't saved by the government.
the company is publically owned. If they dont make their stock attractive by either increasing their dividend or investing back into growth who is going to invest in the company?
(these are my opinions i am not a licensed broker by trade)
post 1600156291 03-18-2020, 11:35 PM
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Originally Posted By VegasLifter26⏩
the company is publically owned. If they dont make their stock attractive by either increasing their dividend or investing back into growth who is going to invest in the company?
Then why do other companies have large cash reserves that are also publicly owned? Seems there is a way to make stock attractive and still keep some in reserve
post 1600156391 03-18-2020, 11:36 PM
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I think the best way to think of air travel ITT is less as a business and more of infrastructure.

Pretty much every city I can think of runs public transit that loses millions of dollars, but they keep them running and smaller cities keep expanding theirs. Are they all just collectively stupid and think that wasting money is cool? Nah. Think of all the businesses that want to open along the rail lines for easier commutes, the carless povertybrahs who can get a job instead of sucking on the system's teat, the money spent by not having to build and widen more roads, etc.

Airlines do a similar thing by essentially providing cities with economic access to the rest of the planet, like with that French company I mentioned above. It's very hard to weigh the full "profits" of what are essentially public goods.
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post 1600156411 03-18-2020, 11:37 PM
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Originally Posted By FA*******⏩
The only way they could survive is by raising their income by 10% or more while raising their expenses by 0%. Doing that for 10 years and hoarding every dime in cash reserves would allow them to survive a once-a-decade black swan like 9/11 or coronavirus for one year. But demand curves don't let you magically get 10% more money for free.

Theotherway to prevent these kind of crises with airlines would be to nationalize them, but given how most governments have chosen to divest themselves of their national airlines - British Airways, Air France, Pan Am got destroyed as soon as the US let other airlines start competing with it, etc - I think we've already been down this road and seen that it doesn't work well either.
I just don't believe that there isn't a more efficient use of funds than socializing their losses. If we realize ~15% higher ticket prices across the board have to happen for airlines to reach sustainability, that's still going to preferable to the current bail out nonsense. I'm sure economists are building models already, and I'll be surprised if they don't bear this out. Maybe we institute a cash reserve requirement this time.

I'm generally against nationalization except as a last resort, but I'm open any all arguments right now.
post 1600156561 03-18-2020, 11:42 PM
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Originally Posted By ErnieMccracken⏩
I just don't believe that there isn't a more efficient use of funds than socializing their losses. If we realize ~15% higher ticket prices across the board have to happen for airlines to reach sustainability, that's still going to preferable to the current bail out nonsense. I'm sure economists are building models already, and I'll be surprised if they don't bear this out. Maybe we institute a cash reserve requirement this time.

I'm generally against nationalization except as a last resort, but I'm open any all arguments right now.
Why do you think their ticket prices are so low, brah. They're already at the optimum point on their supply/demand curve. They raise prices by 15%, they get more than 15% less flyers. Again, strong senior financial analyzing ITT.
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post 1600156991 03-18-2020, 11:54 PM
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Ive done way too much posting in this thread. Not gonna continue the debate so i will leave this here...2 months ago this is what "evil and greedy delta did..

https://www.kiro7.com/news/trending/...PIBZQSB5Z3XFY/
(these are my opinions i am not a licensed broker by trade)
post 1600157141 03-18-2020, 11:57 PM
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Originally Posted By FA*******⏩
Why do you think their ticket prices are so low, brah. They're already at the optimum point on their supply/demand curve. They raise prices by 15%, they get more than 15% less flyers. Again, strong senior financial analyzing ITT.
lol have you ever even built a pricing model? Strong doubt. They can only afford to drop prices so low because their losses are being paid for by us. Put in a reserve requirement and let them work out how to add value to their product lines. Or go bankrupt and let someone else try. There will always be strong demand for air travel.
post 1600157361 03-19-2020, 12:03 AM
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Originally Posted By Contribution05⏩
Then why do other companies have large cash reserves that are also publicly owned? Seems there is a way to make stock attractive and still keep some in reserve
Cash-rich companies, especially in tech like Microsoft and Google, don't have nearly the capital requirements that airlines do because their products scale so easily and create such a fat margin.

For example, you pay millions to develop one new version of Windows or Microsoft Office, but then you can make infinite copies for it for nearly free. Ditto with Google's search engine.

Airlines are much more capital intensive and have much less margin to build their extra cash reserves. Microsoft gets $100 for a Windows license that costs them literally nothing to copy. United gets $100 for an LA to SF plane ticket. Hauling that one person costs about $30 just in avgas (Wiki says about 3L/0.8 gallons of jet fuel per 100km/62 miles traveled), and that's not to mention the crew's pay, the "mortgage payment" on the plane, and the fees they pay the airports for the right to land there.

Big tech companies have had Scrooge McDuck type pools of cash to swim in. Despite the big gross revenue numbers, airlines don't have that same margin.
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post 1600157761 03-19-2020, 12:15 AM
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Originally Posted By ErnieMccracken⏩
lol have you ever even built a pricing model? Strong doubt. They can only afford to drop prices so low because their losses are being paid for by us. Put in a reserve requirement and let them work out how to add value to their product lines. Or go bankrupt and let someone else try. There will always be strong demand for air travel.
"Add value", lmao. Air travel is a commodity just like corn or crude oil, and passengers treat it like a bus. The #1 thing they buy on is price.

Ryanair is the most profitable airline in Europe while simultaneously having the lowest customer satisfaction score in Europe (read that one on misc). Customers will happily will gladly pass up your flight for one that's $10 cheaper, which is one reason why the margins in the industry are so terrible.

This is the last post I make ITT. I feel like I've hashed this over enough.
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post 1600163331 03-19-2020, 04:17 AM
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Originally Posted By FA*******⏩
Do you even business travel, brah?.
Yes. I used to fly on a private jet for business for a company that wasn’t even FTSE listed. Nobody is stopping those. If the company can’t afford that, it’s not much of a company
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