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Forum » Misc Firearms Crew LXXVI: Headshots for Jesus
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Thread: Misc Firearms Crew LXXVI: Headshots for Jesus

post 1604870171 05-13-2020, 07:07 PM
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#8011
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Originally Posted By Farley1324⏩
Accident vs Negligent, I'd say.

I think this goes right back to what I said. If it's just going to be written off as an 'accident' and a different cop gets rotated up to make the same mistake, they should be prohibited entirely nationwide, flat out, period, none. Getting bumped from carrying them out or signing off on them personally is not sufficient deterrence.

Every officer involved immediately terminated (dishonorable discharge conditions) with immediate loss of all benefits, pensions, legal protection, legal defense, etc, would be the bare minimum starting point to consider even allowing no knocks to exist
That's why I think there should be much stricter standards for getting a no knock approved. They are ridiculous and dumb on a ton of accounts, but there is a time and place for them.

Negligence IMO would be on the person who got the warrant / team leader / commander as I said earlier - depending on where the mistakes were made. Accidental would be on everyone else involved (in normal circumstances, obviously this should warrant some more investigation). I think no knocks can be done with drastically safer means without going nuclear on them. It's stupid that no knocks are done to stop destruction of evidence in cases that aren't even dangerous felonies. Even dangerous felonies should be looked at really closely.

I think a lot of warrants can be done much more safely in general. Using a little more man power you can simply sit on the house for awhile and pick up whoever you're looking for / the home owner and then serve the arrest warrant or search warrant without kicking their door open, which is just unsafe and done and should only be done in certain circumstances in the first place. Call out everyone inside, make a ton of announcements, etc. Safety of all parties should always be a priority.

Part of this kicking the door open nonsense is definitely the gung ho factor at certain departments, but they're not all like that. Every search or arrest warrant I've personally been on we've done something similar to the above, and at least in my county you're not getting a no knock warrant approved unless you're going after Bin Laden.
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post 1604871491 05-13-2020, 07:24 PM
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#8012
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Would someone explain TMJ in the context of 9mm ammo?
Florida Crew as of 3/21

What part of "Shall Not Be Infringed" are you having trouble with?

Misc Firearms Crew
post 1604871641 05-13-2020, 07:27 PM
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#8013
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Originally Posted By Ikeman83⏩
Would someone explain TMJ in the context of 9mm ammo?
Pretty much it's FMJ, little less lead thrown into the air/gun perhaps
post 1604871761 05-13-2020, 07:29 PM
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#8014
  1. Ikeman83
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Reasonable Requirements for no knock warrants:

1. The punishment for participating in a no knock warrant executed against an innocent party in which anyone, whether an officer or the innocent party is killed is an automatic guilty verdict for 1st degree murder for all officers executing the warrant, the judge who signs off on it, and all command personnel involved in the decision. If any officer or an innocent party is injured it shall be automatic guilty for attempted murder.

2. If the innocent party survives, the county must pay the innocent party a sum of 1 BN USD. If not they must pay any heirs.

You'd never have a bad no knock ever again.
Florida Crew as of 3/21

What part of "Shall Not Be Infringed" are you having trouble with?

Misc Firearms Crew
post 1604872761 05-13-2020, 07:43 PM
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#8015
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Originally Posted By Ikeman83⏩
Reasonable
Doesn't mean what you think it means.

Might as well say, reasonable gun control means you can own up to 3 guns if you pay $500 each to register each, annually, and LE is allowed to show up unannounced whenever they want during 'business hours' and verify they are safely stored, if ammo is stored in the same room as the gun you are immediately DQ's for life from ownership or possession

I guarantee there would be fewer gun murders

You don't get anywhere by throwing the word reasonable in front of the most unreasonable requirements you can think of.
post 1604873011 05-13-2020, 07:46 PM
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#8016
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Originally Posted By Farley1324⏩
Doesn't mean what you think it means.

Might as well say, reasonable gun control means you can own up to 3 guns if you pay $500 each to register them, annually, and LE is allowed to show up unannounced whenever they want during 'business hours' and verify they are safely stored.
I think that calling it murder is reasonable. You're going in and intentionally committing violence against someone. It's the same as laws for accomplices being charged with accessory to murder for home invasion.

Since it's a violation of the IV, V, and possibly VI amendment, a billion dollar price tag is the only way to make it matter.
Florida Crew as of 3/21

What part of "Shall Not Be Infringed" are you having trouble with?

Misc Firearms Crew
post 1604873581 05-13-2020, 07:57 PM
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#8017
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Originally Posted By Ikeman83⏩
I think that calling it murder is reasonable. You're going in and intentionally committing violence against someone. It's the same as laws for accomplices being charged with accessory to murder for home invasion.

Since it's a violation of the IV, V, and possibly VI amendment, a billion dollar price tag is the only way to make it matter.
That's a terrible way of thinking and terrible precedent. The result "innocent party killed" does not and should not automatically determine the crime committed with an auto-guilty verdict. Details matter. Circumstances matter. The specific situation at hand, matters.

You want awfully harsh ironclad scenario-doesn't-matter laws for somebody who firmly supported mr parking lot patrol lol you'd have the woman in the car auto-guilty murder 1 the way you write laws

And didn't you support the guys in the truck, and the other vehicle, chasing down and shotgunning the guy who walked into an empty house beforehand?

lol,murder 1 auto-guilty for everybody!
post 1604873781 05-13-2020, 08:00 PM
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#8018
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Originally Posted By Farley1324⏩
That's a terrible way of thinking and terrible precedent. The result "innocent party killed" does not and should not automatically determine the crime committed with an auto-guilty verdict. Details matter. Circumstances matter. The specific situation at hand, matters.

You want awfully harsh ironclad scenario-doesn't-matter laws for somebody who firmly supported mr parking lot patrol lol you'd have the woman in the car auto-guilty murder 1 the way you write laws
Which you pointed out ad nauseum was wrong. A no-knock warrant is operating outside the law as a matter of exigency. If you screw up your operation outside the law, you should face the full consequences someone operating outside the law would face, with the difference being that there's direct evidence that you did so so we shouldn't waste Taxpayer dollars with a trial.


Edited to add: "Ad Nauseum"
Florida Crew as of 3/21

What part of "Shall Not Be Infringed" are you having trouble with?

Misc Firearms Crew
post 1604875331 05-13-2020, 08:24 PM
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#8019
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Originally Posted By Ikeman83⏩
Which you pointed out ad nauseum was wrong.A no-knock warrant is operating outside the law as a matter of exigency.If you screw up your operation outside the law, you should face the full consequences someone operating outside the law would face, with the difference being that there's direct evidence that you did so so we shouldn't waste Taxpayer dollars with a trial.


Edited to add: "Ad Nauseum"
But, you agree to allow them as long as innocent parties are not harmed? Why are you signing off on illegal sht?
post 1604876121 05-13-2020, 08:36 PM
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#8020
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Originally Posted By Farley1324⏩
But, you agree to allow them as long as innocent parties are not harmed? Why are you signing off on illegal sht?
The concept of a no-knock is that everything you would be doing would be legal if you started it with a knock, but because the persons inside are known to be dangerous, exigency demands that the knock not be made.

It would not be legal to break into an innocent person's home for no reason.
Florida Crew as of 3/21

What part of "Shall Not Be Infringed" are you having trouble with?

Misc Firearms Crew
post 1604876461 05-13-2020, 08:42 PM
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#8021
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Originally Posted By Ikeman83⏩
The concept of a no-knock is that everything you would be doing would be legal if you started it with a knock, but because the persons inside are known to be dangerous, exigency demands that the knock not be made.

It would not be legal to break into an innocent person's home for no reason.
Sounds exactly like saying auto-guilty to murder 1 if you shoot somebody who pointed an unloaded airsoft gun at you. Nevermind that it looked real and they acted like it was real and were robbing you with it, it's an unloaded airsoft gun therefore you are automatically guilty of murder 1 because you can't shoot somebody for an unloaded airsoft gun
post 1604877031 05-13-2020, 08:49 PM
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#8022
  1. Ikeman83
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Originally Posted By Farley1324⏩
Sounds exactly like saying auto-guilty to murder 1 if you shoot somebody who pointed an unloaded airsoft gun at you. Nevermind that it looked real and they acted like it was real and were robbing you with it, it's an unloaded airsoft gun therefore you are automatically guilty of murder 1 because you can't shoot somebody for an unloaded airsoft gun
Not at all. A no-knock raid has planning, or at least it should. There is no need for it to be executed so quickly that no party on the team has time to ask "is this the right house?" or "Why do we need to do a no knock?"

The consequences are effectively for a failure to plan, not a failure to make the correct decision in a split second unexpectedly. Not even comparable.

Having a judge, the SWAT team, and the LEs supervising have to stop and say, "am I willing to bet an automatic Murder 1 conviction on the accuracy of the information I'm using or do I just want to knock on the door?" is reasonable.
Florida Crew as of 3/21

What part of "Shall Not Be Infringed" are you having trouble with?

Misc Firearms Crew
post 1604877051 05-13-2020, 08:49 PM
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#8023
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Ike and Farley battle, color me shocked
post 1604877171 05-13-2020, 08:51 PM
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#8024
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It's getting to be new thread time. Any opposition to Misc Firearms Crew LXXVII: Locked (Down) and Loaded?
Florida Crew as of 3/21

What part of "Shall Not Be Infringed" are you having trouble with?

Misc Firearms Crew
post 1604877391 05-13-2020, 08:54 PM
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#8025
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Originally Posted By Ikeman83⏩
Not at all. A no-knock raid has planning, or at least it should. There is no need for it to be executed so quickly that no party on the team has time to ask "is this the right house?" or "Why do we need to do a no knock?"

The consequences are effectively for a failure to plan, not a failure to make the correct decision in a split second unexpectedly. Not even comparable.

Having a judge, the SWAT team, and the LEs supervising have to stop and say, "am I willing to bet an automatic Murder 1 conviction on the accuracy of the information I'm using or do I just want to knock on the door?" is reasonable.
Yeah, I always felt due process was overrated, anyway
post 1604877541 05-13-2020, 08:57 PM
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#8026
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Originally Posted By Farley1324⏩
Yeah, I always felt due process was overrated, anyway
If it makes you feel better, they can have a trial. Of course, you just have all of them sign off on their voluntary participation in the raid with acknowledgement of the consequences.

Arrest, indict, convict. Kind of arbitrary if they're signing off on the raid and accepting the consequences beforehand, however.
Florida Crew as of 3/21

What part of "Shall Not Be Infringed" are you having trouble with?

Misc Firearms Crew
post 1604893021 05-14-2020, 03:09 AM
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#8027
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Originally Posted By Ikeman83⏩
It's getting to be new thread time. Any opposition to Misc Firearms Crew LXXVII: Locked (Down) and Loaded?
IN.

(also a pun if you're lame enough, ha!)

also in on red flag
all unconstitutional
the above post is not serious and is for entertainment purposes only.
Thanks for your time.
post 1604898001 05-14-2020, 06:10 AM
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#8028
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Originally Posted By Ikeman83⏩
It's getting to be new thread time. Any opposition to Misc Firearms Crew LXXVII: Locked (Down) and Loaded?
Good title. Do it.
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post 1604900221 05-14-2020, 06:53 AM
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#8029
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FTGE . . .

https://www.foxnews.com/us/sheriffs-...stated-reports

A Florida sheriff’s sergeant who lost his job after it was discovered he hid behind his car when a shooter at a high school in Parkland first opened fire will reportedly get his job back with back pay.

Sgt. Brian Miller, of the Broward Sheriff’s Office, was the first supervisor to respond to the 2018 shooting that took the lives of 17 students and staff at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School, according to the Sun-Sentinel.

An arbitration ruling this week found the sheriff’s office “violated” Miller’s “constitutional due process rights and improperly terminated him,” the BSO Deputies Association, a union that represents deputies and sergeants said, according to the Miami Herald.
*MFC Elder Statesmen Cabinet Crew*

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**Extreme Dips Crew** - http://forum.obnoxiousbrutes.com/showthread.php?t=136113651
post 1604901091 05-14-2020, 07:07 AM
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#8030
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Originally Posted By NuggzTheNinja⏩
Good title. Do it.
I'll put it together during my lunch break today.

Just got back in from the woods...



Florida Crew as of 3/21

What part of "Shall Not Be Infringed" are you having trouble with?

Misc Firearms Crew
post 1604903321 05-14-2020, 07:38 AM
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#8031
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This dirty Tom was in the parking lot as I drove up, jerk

Florida Crew as of 3/21

What part of "Shall Not Be Infringed" are you having trouble with?

Misc Firearms Crew
post 1604903691 05-14-2020, 07:45 AM
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#8032
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Originally Posted By taf1968⏩
FTGE . . .

https://www.foxnews.com/us/sheriffs-...stated-reports

A Florida sheriff’s sergeant who lost his job after it was discovered he hid behind his car when a shooter at a high school in Parkland first opened fire will reportedly get his job back with back pay.

Sgt. Brian Miller, of the Broward Sheriff’s Office, was the first supervisor to respond to the 2018 shooting that took the lives of 17 students and staff at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School, according to the Sun-Sentinel.

An arbitration ruling this week found the sheriff’s office “violated” Miller’s “constitutional due process rights and improperly terminated him,” the BSO Deputies Association, a union that represents deputies and sergeants said, according to the Miami Herald.
At LeAsT hE wEnT hOmE sAfE. ThEy'Re HeRoEs
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post 1604903891 05-14-2020, 07:49 AM
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#8033
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Originally Posted By taf1968⏩
FTGE . . .

https://www.foxnews.com/us/sheriffs-...stated-reports

A Florida sheriff’s sergeant who lost his job after it was discovered he hid behind his car when a shooter at a high school in Parkland first opened fire will reportedly get his job back with back pay.

Sgt. Brian Miller, of the Broward Sheriff’s Office, was the first supervisor to respond to the 2018 shooting that took the lives of 17 students and staff at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School, according to the Sun-Sentinel.

An arbitration ruling this week found the sheriff’s office “violated” Miller’s “constitutional due process rights and improperly terminated him,” the BSO Deputies Association, a union that represents deputies and sergeants said, according to the Miami Herald.
Yeah, we're paying him 137k a year to stand outside schools while kids die. I was hoping he'd at least have the honor to bring this chapter to a conclusion on his own but nah....
Boycott foodservice industry crew
post 1604905011 05-14-2020, 08:07 AM
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#8034
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We need a huge string of LEOs to get shot to death executing no knocks. That will eventually take care of the problem entirely.
Originally Posted By OrificeSpunk⏩
Im missing something here. Did you buy a p80 frame and they included a free mag with it? If you bought that mag then shame on you for paying the same price as an OEM mag.
He got a 19 mag with a 17 frame, irrc.
Originally Posted By Ikeman83⏩
Would someone explain TMJ in the context of 9mm ammo?
FMJ but with the jacket covering the base of the bullet as well.


ETA: I like the idea of convicting LEOs and judges of murder for NK warrants that go bad. Mandatory minimum sentence of death without the option to appeal.
MFC

drum, it holds fifty, uh
post 1604905471 05-14-2020, 08:18 AM
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#8035
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Originally Posted By MoeBettuh⏩
We need a huge string of LEOs to get shot to death executing no knocks. That will eventually take care of the problem entirely.
Probably just an increase in 'militarization'. They'll start bringing MRAPs/maxxpros to drive up the lawn and knock on the door followed by a shield-led stack. Or whatever. I suppose it might reduce the number performed in the lesser equipped areas or departments, temporarily until they get their new gear from the feds
Originally Posted By MoeBettuh⏩
ETA: I like the idea of convicting LEOs and judges of murder for NK warrants that go bad. Mandatory minimum sentence of death without the option to appeal.
Mandatory death sentenced by statute based on outcome regardless of the specifics of the case at hand...that's a precedent I want! As gun owners, there's no way that could ever come back on us.
post 1604905761 05-14-2020, 08:23 AM
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#8036
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Originally Posted By Farley1324⏩
Probably just an increase in 'militarization'. They'll start bringing MRAPs/maxxpros to drive up the lawn and knock on the door followed by a shield-led stack. Or whatever. I suppose it might reduce the number performed in the lesser equipped areas or departments, temporarily until they get their new gear from the feds



Mandatory death sentenced by statute based on outcome regardless of the specifics of the case at hand...that's a precedent I want! As gun owners, there's no way that could ever come back on us.
The specifics are that you illegally broke into someone’s house and murdered them...
MFC

drum, it holds fifty, uh
post 1604906841 05-14-2020, 08:46 AM
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#8037
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Originally Posted By MoeBettuh⏩
The specifics are that you illegally broke into someone’s house and murdered them...
In what way was it illegal when they had a warrant explicitly saying they could do it?
post 1604906941 05-14-2020, 08:48 AM
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#8038
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Originally Posted By MoeBettuh⏩
The specifics are that you illegally broke into someone’s house and murdered them...
It's not illegal, that's the problem.
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post 1604907091 05-14-2020, 08:51 AM
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#8039
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Originally Posted By Farley1324⏩
In what way was it illegal when they had a warrant explicitly saying they could do it?
Maybe I should have saidunconstitutionallyinstead of “illegally.”

Sure, courts havesaidthey aren’t unconstitutional, but I think you can appreciate that if the courts and LEOs are not always right.
MFC

drum, it holds fifty, uh
post 1604907431 05-14-2020, 08:59 AM
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#8040
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Question: Is it legal to shoot somebody who is posing no immediate threat to you or anybody else?

Should we throw out due process and auto murder 1 convict anybody who shoots and kills a person when said person (the deceased) has a spotless record and never posed a danger to anybody? I mean, they just murdered an innocent non-threat...right?
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