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Wait? what sick **** created Sex reassignment surgery?
07-30-2020, 12:41 PM
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#121
Originally Posted By ChelshireCat⏩
Ok ur definition still screws them. I'm just sayinf the docs recommend these procedures because they overall save lives. We need to figure out how we can help trans while still protecting women. There are ways u can all coexist and have things b fair.You are talking about Sexually disordered people again. Intersex people are not the same as trans people. Stop confusing them.
07-30-2020, 12:45 PM
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#122
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Originally Posted By wincel⏩
https://www.preprints.org/manuscript/202005.0226/v1thi is true and there needs to be a separate league or some kind of hormone classes or something
Recent Peer-reviewed study showing HRT does not even come close to removing male advantage in sport.
Weight classes won't help, Hormone profiling won't help. Women will always be at a disadvantage.
You like science? Please read. The PDF is downloadable.
Feel free to PM your response.
There is no denying male superiority in pure Physiology. Why should women get hurt competing against males in combat sports? Why should women be denied a place in their own sporting category?
They should set up a trans league, but that won't give them the validation that they want that comes completely at the expense of women.
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07-30-2020, 01:31 PM
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#123
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this thread blew up
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07-30-2020, 01:54 PM
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#124
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Also just realized that Wincel never answered my earlier question.
So I will ask again to remind him just in case he decides to slink off.
What is a woman? And by extension I guess, what is a man?
So I will ask again to remind him just in case he decides to slink off.
What is a woman? And by extension I guess, what is a man?
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07-30-2020, 02:40 PM
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#125
Originally Posted By ChelshireCat⏩
I fell asleep. IDK if there is a nice solution to this as far as sports go. Maybe the solution is to stop caring so much about sports. You already defined male and female as male being having a Y and female otherwise. In this definition, a person with XY AIS will be force dto play in the male league even if she has a natural vagina.Also just realized that Wincel never answered my earlier question.
So I will ask again to remind him just in case he decides to slink off.
What is a woman? And by extension I guess, what is a man?
So I will ask again to remind him just in case he decides to slink off.
What is a woman? And by extension I guess, what is a man?
We can do classes based on a weighted average of VO2max, weight, t levels and other criteria to segregate the leagues. It would end up being female, soyboy, male, and juicer males. Another alternative to minimize unfairness if we assume it must exist is to allow trans to play, but only in the male league. This would be unfair to trans, but spare the large female popuation from facing an unfair opponent. Perhaps they can give trans a discount to sporting events in exchange for this effective ban on being competitive. IDK. It's not really very fair, jut if there is no amswer, this might be the next best thing.
07-30-2020, 02:43 PM
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#126
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Originally Posted By wincel⏩
Hope you're well..I fell asleep. IDK if there is a nice solution to this as far as sports go. Maybe the solution is to stop caring so much about sports. You already defined male and female as male being having a Y and female otherwise. In this definition, a person with XY AIS will be force dto play in the male league even if she has a natural vagina.
07-30-2020, 02:49 PM
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#127
07-30-2020, 02:51 PM
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#128
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Originally Posted By wincel⏩
I am not interested at hearing the legal and scientific definition of woman repeated back at me. I was asking about your definition of a woman.I fell asleep. IDK if there is a nice solution to this as far as sports go. Maybe the solution is to stop caring so much about sports. You already defined male and female as male being having a Y and female otherwise. In this definition, a person with XY AIS will be force dto play in the male league even if she has a natural vagina.
Again talking about less than 0.1% of people being hard done by through using a hard-line categorizing system, rather than 51% of the population... that sounds really good tbh. Again, Intersex people are not trans, they will also be able to prove they are intersex in bloodwork. Transwomen cannot prove they are female or even intersex... every test will prove otherwise. They are a biological man.
Even if we allowed exception to proven intersex conditions, transwomen will not qualify.
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07-30-2020, 02:55 PM
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#129
Originally Posted By ChelshireCat⏩
I don't really have one. I let people self identify and call them whatever. As far as ppl I want to bang, that would be XX with external female anatomy who can spawn offspring.I am not interested at hearing the legal and scientific definition of woman repeated back at me. I was asking about your definition of a woman.
Again talking about less than 0.1% of people being hard done by through using a hard-line categorizing system, rather than 51% of the population... that sounds really good tbh. Again, Intersex people are not trans, they will also be able to prove they are intersex in bloodwork. Transwomen cannot prove they are female or even intersex... every test will prove otherwise. They are a biological man.
Even if we allowed exception to proven intersex conditions, transwomen will not qualify.
Again talking about less than 0.1% of people being hard done by through using a hard-line categorizing system, rather than 51% of the population... that sounds really good tbh. Again, Intersex people are not trans, they will also be able to prove they are intersex in bloodwork. Transwomen cannot prove they are female or even intersex... every test will prove otherwise. They are a biological man.
Even if we allowed exception to proven intersex conditions, transwomen will not qualify.
That's fine to make that distinction, but as I said, there is some research showing there are physiological differences between pure male, trans, and pure female people. If new info comes to light ahowing a biological cause for being trans just like intersex, would you then change your view?
Regarding leagues, what about the mutiple leagues based on some weighted average of VO2max, t levels, weight, and other things to ensure the competition is somewhat fair?
07-30-2020, 02:58 PM
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#130
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Originally Posted By wincel⏩
You protect people trans people by telling them to accept their perfectly healthy body and there's nothing wrong with being a man.Ok ur definition still screws them. I'm just sayinf the docs recommend these procedures because they overall save lives. We need to figure out how we can help trans while still protecting women. There are ways u can all coexist and have things b fair.
07-30-2020, 03:01 PM
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#131
Originally Posted By MikeLowrrrey⏩
they tried that and it increased suicides u can see in the study i linked earlierYou protect people trans people by telling them to accept their perfectly healthy body and there's nothing wrong with being a man.
07-30-2020, 03:02 PM
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#132
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Originally Posted By redraider86⏩
this feels right to meAnyways, it's not my problem if a man decides he'll kill himself if his gender isn't affirmed.
im very confused now. i know 2nd wave is right i was just thinkin maybe there was some middle ground.
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07-30-2020, 03:07 PM
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#133
Originally Posted By AltarOfPlagues⏩
Letting all the trannies off themselves or murdering them was the old school way, but it is clearly not the best way. Today it would be trannies, tomorrow the handicapped, and before you know it, you're like Hitler or Mao and killing everyone who doesn't conform to your ideal vision of the ubermensch. Nothxjeffrey.this feels right to me
im very confused now. i know 2nd wave is right i was just thinkin maybe there was some middle ground.
im very confused now. i know 2nd wave is right i was just thinkin maybe there was some middle ground.
They have a right to live and they live in anguish because of their dysphoria. The treatments are shown to help. They may never get to be treated exactly fairly because we may end up excluding them from female sports simply due to competitive advantages from being male at some point. But they deserve to get the best treatments they can to help improve their qol. The medical community has a responsibility to offer the best treatments given the scientific evidence.
I'll also say the mtf sport issue is not grounds to discriminate against all trans. What about the ftm? I can understand there may eventually be a ruling to discriminate against mtf in sports to make things more fair.
This raises a new question about whether those who identify and are considered "black" being allowed to compete with nonblacks. Lettuce be real tea, if the NBA had a white league and a black league, literally no one would watch the white league. At what point is a competition fair? After all, at the end of the day, the winners are always those with elite genetics and chemical assistance. I hate sports for this very reason. I can never take them seriously.
07-30-2020, 03:09 PM
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#134
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Originally Posted By wincel⏩
i dont think hitler was "letting the jews kill theyself" but im a C studentLetting all the trannies off themselves or murdering them was the old school way, but it is clearly not the best way. Today it would be trannies, tomorrow the handicapped, and before you know it, you're like Hitler or Mao and killing everyone who doesn't conform to your ideal vision of the ubermensch. Nothxjeffrey.
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07-30-2020, 03:09 PM
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#135
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Originally Posted By wincel⏩
My views are never carved in stone. I am constantly learning and refining/changing my beliefs.I don't really have one. I let people self identify and call them whatever. As far as ppl I want to bang, that would be XX with external female anatomy who can spawn offspring.
That's fine to make that distinction, but as I said, there is some research showing there are physiological differences between pure male, trans, and pure female people. If new info comes to light ahowing a biological cause for being trans just like intersex, would you then change your view?
Regarding leagues, what about the mutiple leagues based on some weighted average of VO2max, t levels, weight, and other things to ensure the competition is somewhat fair?
That's fine to make that distinction, but as I said, there is some research showing there are physiological differences between pure male, trans, and pure female people. If new info comes to light ahowing a biological cause for being trans just like intersex, would you then change your view?
Regarding leagues, what about the mutiple leagues based on some weighted average of VO2max, t levels, weight, and other things to ensure the competition is somewhat fair?
The problem is that there are so many biological differences between the sexes, there are so many health differences between the sexes. If we could remove all those differences, we would no longer be human. We would be gods.
The sporting issue will not ever be sorted until then unfortunately. Please see the study I linked to earlier. It mentions all of the other sport category potentials like v02.... Still excessive male dominance.
Now, for women's spaces....If we could accurately determine a real trans person (no male pattern offending, has gone through full GRS, so called "female brain" - which hasn't been proven yet btw) from a man who is using it as means to be predatory... I would absolutely want them to be safe in the women's bathroom with me.
But less than 10% have the GRS. More than 90% of transwomen are walking around with a dink. They do not belong getting changed next to young teenage girls in changing rooms for instance.
Women's and transwomen issues and health concerns are totally different, it is dangerous to conflate the two.
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07-30-2020, 03:15 PM
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#136
07-30-2020, 03:17 PM
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#137
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Wincel, do you think twinks just haven't done enough soul searching to realize that they are really trans and the same with butch women? Maybe trans people are closer to 30% of the population if we include them. Then we could stand and fight for a group of trans people that are really just not accepting it yet?
Could you settle what the difference between sex and gender are for me in a succinct way (don't post some lib study that I have to read).
Could you settle what the difference between sex and gender are for me in a succinct way (don't post some lib study that I have to read).
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07-30-2020, 03:17 PM
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#138
Originally Posted By ChelshireCat⏩
No no that is the point. If trannies have superior vo2, it is a marker that we can use to look at what is fair and place them in an appropriate group.My views are never carved in stone. I am constantly learning and refining/changing my beliefs.
The problem is that there are so many biological differences between the sexes, there are so many health differences between the sexes. If we could remove all those differences, we would no longer be human. We would be gods.
The sporting issue will not ever be sorted until then unfortunately. Please see the study I linked to earlier. It mentions all of the other sport category potentials like v02.... Still excessive male dominance.
Now, for women's spaces....If we could accurately determine a real trans person (no male pattern offending, has gone through full GRS, so called "female brain" - which hasn't been proven yet btw) from a man who is using it as means to be predatory... I would absolutely want them to be safe in the women's bathroom with me.
But less than 10% have the GRS. More than 90% of transwomen are walking around with a dink. They do not belong getting changed next to young teenage girls in changing rooms for instance.
Women's and transwomen issues and health concerns are totally different, it is dangerous to conflate the two.
The problem is that there are so many biological differences between the sexes, there are so many health differences between the sexes. If we could remove all those differences, we would no longer be human. We would be gods.
The sporting issue will not ever be sorted until then unfortunately. Please see the study I linked to earlier. It mentions all of the other sport category potentials like v02.... Still excessive male dominance.
Now, for women's spaces....If we could accurately determine a real trans person (no male pattern offending, has gone through full GRS, so called "female brain" - which hasn't been proven yet btw) from a man who is using it as means to be predatory... I would absolutely want them to be safe in the women's bathroom with me.
But less than 10% have the GRS. More than 90% of transwomen are walking around with a dink. They do not belong getting changed next to young teenage girls in changing rooms for instance.
Women's and transwomen issues and health concerns are totally different, it is dangerous to conflate the two.
I agree with you on that. Maybe they can have neutral bathrooms, more private stalls etc?
07-30-2020, 03:20 PM
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#139
Originally Posted By SiegeMT⏩
sex is chromo****l sex...gender is some weird term ppl use to try to fit with the old notion of male or female. It pretty much is whatever people want it to be.Wincel, do you think twinks just haven't done enough soul searching to realize that they are really trans and the same with butch women? Maybe trans people are closer to 30% of the population if we include them. Then we could stand and fight for a group of trans people that are really just not accepting it yet?
Could you settle what the difference between sex and gender are for me in a succinct way (don't post some lib study that I have to read).
Could you settle what the difference between sex and gender are for me in a succinct way (don't post some lib study that I have to read).
It's funny you mention homosexuality because I bet one day they will find out the root cause of that as well. It will probably be a similar phenomenon to the cause of trans. It is most likely due to some developmental anomalies after the gonads have formed. Perhaps some hormone receptors in the brain were fuked. Only time and more research into this will tell.
Unfortunately, much of the research is frowned upon because trans and homosexuaos and others want to be seen as "normal" to some extent and if a physiological cause for their condition is found, it turns it into a syndrome or disease rather than a way of life. But lettuce be realtea...it's a syndrome.
07-30-2020, 03:20 PM
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#140
Originally Posted By 128⏩
I'd heard about the changing someone's "gender" like a complete tard part of the story,John Money
but on reading more about this bastard, jesus. I didn't realize he treated it like some sort of experiment, especially with that rapey weird bull****.
https://embryo.asu.edu/pages/david-r...-johnjoan-case
Anyway, the gender wars aren't really my problem, but if I was a parent, maaan, feel sorry for them.
Mash'Allah
07-30-2020, 03:25 PM
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#141
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Originally Posted By wincel⏩
So if a man and woman had a similar v02.... he still has 162% punching power over a female and she still has less bone density and is proven to be more prone to nerve damage.... should we let them box together? Play rugby?No no that is the point. If trannies have superior vo2, it is a marker that we can use to look at what is fair and place them in an appropriate group.
I agree with you on that. Maybe they can have neutral bathrooms, more private stalls etc?
I agree with you on that. Maybe they can have neutral bathrooms, more private stalls etc?
An appropriate group would either be in the males or in their own separate league.
Read the study Wincel. It's not too long and it is highly informative.
Our UK Laws allow for Unisex cubicles. They must be door-to-ceiling enclosed. No gaps. Have a basin and a sanitary bin in every single one. That's a lot more space and a lot more cost (those bins and the services required to collect and clean are expensive). They also have to open out into a communal or public place due to the massive and documented increase of sex attacks in mixed sex facilities than in single sex.
I would be happy if all spaces were completely unisex as described above.
If that was provided then sure.
Also please read about crimes against trans people in the UK.
https://www.channel4.com/news/factch...le-murdered-uk
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07-30-2020, 03:25 PM
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#142
07-30-2020, 03:26 PM
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#143
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Originally Posted By ChelshireCat⏩
Whenever I find a unisex bathroom in the states it always feels like it's time to drop a steamer.So if a man and woman had a similar v02.... he still has 162% punching power over a female and she still has less bone density and is proven to be more prone to nerve damage.... should we let them box together? Play rugby?
An appropriate group would either be in the males or in their own separate league.
Read the study Wincel. It's not too long and it is highly informative.
Our UK Laws allow for Unisex cubicles. They must be door-to-ceiling enclosed. No gaps. Have a basin and a sanitary bin in every single one. That's a lot more space and a lot more cost (those bins and the services required to collect and clean are expensive). They also have to open out into a communal or public place due to the massive and documented increase of sex attacks in mixed sex facilities than in single sex.
I would be happy if all spaces were completely unisex as described above.
If that was provided then sure.
An appropriate group would either be in the males or in their own separate league.
Read the study Wincel. It's not too long and it is highly informative.
Our UK Laws allow for Unisex cubicles. They must be door-to-ceiling enclosed. No gaps. Have a basin and a sanitary bin in every single one. That's a lot more space and a lot more cost (those bins and the services required to collect and clean are expensive). They also have to open out into a communal or public place due to the massive and documented increase of sex attacks in mixed sex facilities than in single sex.
I would be happy if all spaces were completely unisex as described above.
If that was provided then sure.
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07-30-2020, 03:30 PM
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#144
Originally Posted By ThenGuru⏩
That doctor was disgusting. But it is important to realize the "reassignment" he did was haphazard and done to a person most likely born with a male brain. He was a boy on the inside, and the circumcision mistake plus psycho doctor then making him a female plus making him have sex with his brother certainly fuked his life up.I'd heard about the changing someone's "gender" like a complete tard part of the story,
but on reading more about this bastard, jesus. I didn't realize he treated it like some sort of experiment, especially with that rapey weird bull****.
https://embryo.asu.edu/pages/david-r...-johnjoan-case
Anyway, the gender wars aren't really my problem, but if I was a parent, maaan, feel sorry for them.
but on reading more about this bastard, jesus. I didn't realize he treated it like some sort of experiment, especially with that rapey weird bull****.
https://embryo.asu.edu/pages/david-r...-johnjoan-case
Anyway, the gender wars aren't really my problem, but if I was a parent, maaan, feel sorry for them.
This is not representative of reassignments in general. Many of the founders of many disciplines of science were horrifically cruel. Much of what we know from anatomy came from some really creepy people who spent way too much time with dead corpses. It's horrible, but that is not a reason to malign the entire field of gender reassignment, which has been shown to be helpful. Doctors like Cecilia Dhejne (author of swedish study) are not perverts. She is trying to help people.
07-30-2020, 03:31 PM
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#145
Originally Posted By ChelshireCat⏩
Then put bone density and strengtg benchmarks as part of the scheme. Eventually, we can make something fair.So if a man and woman had a similar v02.... he still has 162% punching power over a female and she still has less bone density and is proven to be more prone to nerve damage.... should we let them box together? Play rugby?
An appropriate group would either be in the males or in their own separate league.
Read the study Wincel. It's not too long and it is highly informative.
Our UK Laws allow for Unisex cubicles. They must be door-to-ceiling enclosed. No gaps. Have a basin and a sanitary bin in every single one. That's a lot more space and a lot more cost (those bins and the services required to collect and clean are expensive). They also have to open out into a communal or public place due to the massive and documented increase of sex attacks in mixed sex facilities than in single sex.
I would be happy if all spaces were completely unisex as described above.
If that was provided then sure.
Also please read about crimes against trans people in the UK.
https://www.channel4.com/news/factch...le-murdered-uk
An appropriate group would either be in the males or in their own separate league.
Read the study Wincel. It's not too long and it is highly informative.
Our UK Laws allow for Unisex cubicles. They must be door-to-ceiling enclosed. No gaps. Have a basin and a sanitary bin in every single one. That's a lot more space and a lot more cost (those bins and the services required to collect and clean are expensive). They also have to open out into a communal or public place due to the massive and documented increase of sex attacks in mixed sex facilities than in single sex.
I would be happy if all spaces were completely unisex as described above.
If that was provided then sure.
Also please read about crimes against trans people in the UK.
https://www.channel4.com/news/factch...le-murdered-uk
Your goal is to dichotomize the leagues and have it be done in an objective nondiscriminatory way. I believe by defining the right functional as a weighted average of some criteria, we can do it to eliminate any obvious statistical advantages. This way, you are not discriminating against trans, ur just saying a certain individual has too many biomarkers that give them an unfair advantage over XX "pure" females. We would need to figure out what unfair statistically means.
07-30-2020, 03:34 PM
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#146
Originally Posted By SiegeMT⏩
yesSo in that case then gender is a way to describe sex before we knew about chromosomes basically.
and for the vast majority of cases, there is only male and female so it worked for society...they would just quietly murder the freaks or let them off themselves
keep in mind it was customary to let cripples die and stone lepers too. Lol we have grown beyond this I hope.
07-30-2020, 03:39 PM
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#147
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Originally Posted By wincel⏩
If you put all of those in as determining factors... you would have 100 groups for every sport. The Olympics etc would take months AND would still basically be all female in half the categories and all males in the other. Because there is very little crossover. Read it.Then put bone density and strengtg benchmarks as part of the scheme. Eventually, we can make something fair.
You maybe don't understand having probably not touched a woman before. The physicasl differences between men and women is scary massive.
Or we can watch the fastest man and the fastest woman. Not 100 races of the fastest person with a weight of xxxlbs, v02 max of xx, bone density of xxx, pelvic tilt of xxx, height of xxxx, muscle mass of xxx. And then onto the next race out of 100....
Lol, you are not thinking clearly. I get that you want to be nice but you have no skin in this battle. You won't lose anything but by god Wincel. maybe sometime in your future you will have a wife... and a daughter. And you will have been complicit and ecstatic at the removal of their rights to privacy, dignity, safety and fairness.
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07-30-2020, 03:40 PM
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#148
Originally Posted By ChelshireCat⏩
No. You can have whatever number of groups you want. We can use a weighted average of various criteria to partition the group into even just two leagues.If you put all of those in as determining factors... you would have 100 groups for every sport. The Olympics etc would take months AND would still basically be all female in half the categories and all males in the other. Because there is very little crossover. Read it.
You maybe don't understand having probably not touched a woman before. The physicasl differences between men and women is scary massive.
Or we can watch the fastest man and the fastest woman. Not 100 races of the fastest man with a weight of xxxlbs, v02 max of xx, bone density of xxx, pelvic tilt of xxx, height of xxxx, muscle mass of xxx.
Lol, you are not thinking clearly. I get that you want to be nice but you have no skin in this battle. You won't lose anything but by god Wincel. maybe sometime in your future you will have a wife... and a daughter. And you will have been complicit and ecstatic at the removal of their rights to privacy, dignity, safety and fairness.
You maybe don't understand having probably not touched a woman before. The physicasl differences between men and women is scary massive.
Or we can watch the fastest man and the fastest woman. Not 100 races of the fastest man with a weight of xxxlbs, v02 max of xx, bone density of xxx, pelvic tilt of xxx, height of xxxx, muscle mass of xxx.
Lol, you are not thinking clearly. I get that you want to be nice but you have no skin in this battle. You won't lose anything but by god Wincel. maybe sometime in your future you will have a wife... and a daughter. And you will have been complicit and ecstatic at the removal of their rights to privacy, dignity, safety and fairness.
Dude I'm trying to be as fair as possible to everyone. Sports are dumb to begin with, and it's retarded that trans rights are being held up because ppl want to throw balls around and feel special. I get that it is unfair and I'm suggesting ways to make it nondsicriminatory and somewhat more fair, but the stupid fact of the matter is that sports just aren't fair. It's a contest of genetics and chemistry and it's just dumb. I will never understand why we waste so much taxpayer money marrying sports to academia, but that is a different thread.
07-30-2020, 03:40 PM
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#149
- SiegeMT
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- SiegeMT
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- Join Date: May 2014
- Location: United States
- Age: 37
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At least Lepers have been assigned to their own colony.
If I hook up with someone with complete reassignment and they don't even have the man voice than am I still hooking up with a trans person or just a female? At that point are they still trans because they are in the right body? Or would they still be trans because they have difference sex chromo's than their gender?
If they are a female then they are still trans because they don't match their chromosomes so its all the same?
If I hook up with someone with complete reassignment and they don't even have the man voice than am I still hooking up with a trans person or just a female? At that point are they still trans because they are in the right body? Or would they still be trans because they have difference sex chromo's than their gender?
If they are a female then they are still trans because they don't match their chromosomes so its all the same?
Ninja Punch Society x2 now
07-30-2020, 03:45 PM
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#150
Originally Posted By SiegeMT⏩
imo they are trans due to their chromosomesAt least Lepers have been assigned to their own colony.
If I hook up with someone with complete reassignment and they don't even have the man voice than am I still hooking up with a trans person or just a female? At that point are they still trans because they are in the right body? Or would they still be trans because they have difference sex chromo's than their gender?
If they are a female then they are still trans because they don't match their chromosomes so its all the same?
If I hook up with someone with complete reassignment and they don't even have the man voice than am I still hooking up with a trans person or just a female? At that point are they still trans because they are in the right body? Or would they still be trans because they have difference sex chromo's than their gender?
If they are a female then they are still trans because they don't match their chromosomes so its all the same?
im not down with banging trannies, but some miscers like madvillainy seem into it
u do u bruh I won't judge
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