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Forum » Do you support Universal Basic Income?
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Thread: Do you support Universal Basic Income?

post 1613544111 08-14-2020, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted By AvengeMe⏩
Seems like you've got a lot of "what if's" going on there. I'm obviously no expert but this seems like a conversation to be having maybe a bit further down the road when we're starting to get a clearer picture of what things might be like.
https://news.mit.edu/2020/how-many-j...s-replace-0504

We'll see in a few decades who is right.
post 1613544211 08-14-2020, 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted By ErnieMccracken⏩
If you don't, those people won't quietly starve to death like you are hoping. They will burn every major city to the ground and destroy the country.
This is the entire problem and why inequality matters. If you really want to avoid the communist revolution, you will make sure your people can eat and have shelter.

You need just enough socialism that your society doesn't collapse and not a bit more.
post 1613544301 08-14-2020, 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted By wincel⏩
This is the entire problem and why inequality matters.
inequality would exist by default because people make different decisions.

This is why it doesn’t matter.
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post 1613544381 08-14-2020, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted By RonaldMcflurry⏩
Can we stop ALL immigration and limit the amount of children people are allowed to have?
We China now
post 1613544791 08-14-2020, 01:35 PM
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Originally Posted By ErnieMccracken⏩
If you don't, those people won't quietly starve to death like you are hoping. They will burn every major city to the ground and destroy the country.
Why would I hope for someone to starve to death? If you CHOOSE not to work and expect me to pay more to support your lazy ass, then F U C K Y O U. People who want to work will always find work.
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post 1613545131 08-14-2020, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted By wincel⏩
I can. It is the nature of technology that the number of jobs required to maintain or advance the tech is lower than the number of jobs required to do the work without the tech. That is a simple fact. You can't get around that. Another simple fact is that human intelligence has an average value. The average human is not capable of understanding the science and engineering necessary to do the specialized work involved to advance or maintain future technology. Thus, the effective available jobs for people will dwindle.
[#Of persons required to open OF, Patreon, etc] <<<<<<<<[#Of sloots gainfully employed on those platforms].

What you say in your post is not the truism you make it out to be. That's the simple fact here.

The fact is that, as a culture, Americans really begin to believe that some jobs are "beneath" them and seek instead to game the system.

And the most brutal pill of all is that the lack of univeraal health care is a major driver in keeping poor either poor or unhealthy or both in this country.

Let that sink in before advocating for UBI.
post 1613545711 08-14-2020, 01:44 PM
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Originally Posted By Drew23⏩
Why would I hope for someone to starve to death? If you CHOOSE not to work and expect me to pay more to support your lazy ass, then F U C K Y O U. People who want to work will always find work.
That's not how a society works. You can either provide for everyone or get plunged into chaos every time the economy dips. That's why only the poorest, most unstable chithole countries go the latter route.
post 1613545971 08-14-2020, 01:47 PM
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In the current world, not yet.
In a possible future, where most people are replaced by computers owned by a few tech giants, yes unless a better solution comes along.
post 1613548251 08-14-2020, 02:16 PM
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UBI is usually implemented with a flat Value Added Tax (tax on goods and services produced), so the problem is that companies will just raise their prices to offset the losses. People have more money, and won’t mind the increase in prices, so they’ll essentially just give these companies back the money. In the end, the monetary cycle is unchanged, and people might not even be able to afford the rise in cost of living. The problem is that certain large corporations own a significant market share and will receive a disproportionately large return flow, so the smaller businesses will get wiped out over time. Generally just an idiotic concept.

I think Musk’s idea of neural implants is a better idea for longevity. Although it seems a little too sci-fi, there is more potential in this than UBI. The issue on hand is that AI will automate everything, and the 80-100 IQ plebs will lose their jobs and be useless in society. Chicken might cost 10 cents/pound, but they won’t have any income to buy it anyways. By raising the plebs’ intelligence level and allowing them to interface directly with technology, they’ll be able to complete more complex tasks and be less likely to be eliminated by AI.

This is why Elon Musk is unironically the God Emperor of mankind, and has decided to reveal himself this century by guiding humanity in this crucial period by sharing his knowledge and technology with us.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_decline
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Societal_collapse#By_absorption
post 1613548401 08-14-2020, 02:18 PM
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No. The fact that this is even being discussed shows just how economically ignorant the population has become.
post 1613549541 08-14-2020, 02:32 PM
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if everyone got a higher standard of living how would jeff bezos afford his next cruise ship and stadium? if people weren't stressed about money and bills they might have time to innovate and be creative and it could hurt big corporations profits. i say we all lobby against an UBI so we can keep and hoard all our wealth because we are all billionaires and we cant let others have a slightly bigger slice of the pie. We have 99% of it and lets keep it that way
post 1613549781 08-14-2020, 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted By nothingshocking⏩
Yes, the world is rapidly moving to the point wherebillions of people will be unnecessary in the workforce.
I am sure Bill Gates will have a solution.
post 1613550251 08-14-2020, 02:39 PM
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Originally Posted By Thunder999⏩
I am sure Bill Gates will have a solution.
Hard cap Earth's population at 1 billion crew
post 1613550541 08-14-2020, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted By beegeener⏩
if everyone got a higher standard of living how would jeff bezos afford his next cruise ship and stadium? if people weren't stressed about money and bills they might have time to innovate and be creative and it could hurt big corporations profits. i say we all lobby against an UBI so we can keep and hoard all our wealth because we are all billionaires and we cant let others have a slightly bigger slice of the pie. We have 99% of it and lets keep it that way
Majority of people don't have the smarts or work ethic to be an innovator, regardless of whether they have money or not. Look at child prodigies, most end up average despite handed top education and money. How would a regular person compare to a born genius given the same circumstance?There are very very few exceptions your case applies like Ramanujan but even he managed to solidify himself in the world.
post 1613550761 08-14-2020, 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted By BulkingIsHard⏩
UBI is usually implemented with a flat Value Added Tax (tax on goods and services produced), so the problem is that companies will just raise their prices to offset the losses. People have more money, and won’t mind the increase in prices, so they’ll essentially just give these companies back the money. In the end, the monetary cycle is unchanged, and people might not even be able to afford the rise in cost of living. The problem is that certain large corporations own a significant market share and will receive a disproportionately large return flow, so the smaller businesses will get wiped out over time. Generally just an idiotic concept.

I think Musk’s idea of neural implants is a better idea for longevity. Although it seems a little too sci-fi, there is more potential in this than UBI. The issue on hand is that AI will automate everything, and the 80-100 IQ plebs will lose their jobs and be useless in society. Chicken might cost 10 cents/pound, but they won’t have any income to buy it anyways. By raising the plebs’ intelligence level and allowing them to interface directly with technology, they’ll be able to complete more complex tasks and be less likely to be eliminated by AI.

This is why Elon Musk is unironically the God Emperor of mankind, and has decided to reveal himself this century by guiding humanity in this crucial period by sharing his knowledge and technology with us.
Sorry to break it to you, but u aren't going to be able to cheat your way into becoming smarter. We're more likely to figure out robot intelligence before we figure out how to make you smart enough to pass physics class bud.
post 1613551291 08-14-2020, 02:51 PM
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yes is support it 100%

We should tax heavily al billionares to fund is. We are already throwing billions in bailouts to megacorps, we should help the common man instead, phuck cuckpitalism. If it were up to me i would give UBI to everyone, so work become something optional for those who want to do it, i would fund philosopy shcool everywhere and make a society of thinkers with free time to think and walk about in the planet, that would be GOAT.
post 1613551441 08-14-2020, 02:54 PM
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During the pandemic, yes.


After that, it replaces all other govt handouts, yes. It would be substantially cheaper.

Problem is we need to massively clamp down on immigration.
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post 1613551651 08-14-2020, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted By BulkingIsHard⏩
UBI is usually implemented with a flat Value Added Tax (tax on goods and services produced), so the problem is that companies will just raise their prices to offset the losses. People have more money, and won’t mind the increase in prices, so they’ll essentially just give these companies back the money. In the end, the monetary cycle is unchanged, and people might not even be able to afford the rise in cost of living. The problem is that certain large corporations own a significant market share and will receive a disproportionately large return flow, so the smaller businesses will get wiped out over time. Generally just an idiotic concept.

I think Musk’s idea of neural implants is a better idea for longevity. Although it seems a little too sci-fi, there is more potential in this than UBI. The issue on hand is that AI will automate everything, and the 80-100 IQ plebs will lose their jobs and be useless in society. Chicken might cost 10 cents/pound, but they won’t have any income to buy it anyways. By raising the plebs’ intelligence level and allowing them to interface directly with technology, they’ll be able to complete more complex tasks and be less likely to be eliminated by AI.

This is why Elon Musk is unironically the God Emperor of mankind, and has decided to reveal himself this century by guiding humanity in this crucial period by sharing his knowledge and technology with us.
Bro that sounds horrible, phuck transhumanism that's downright EVIL. That's the dark diabolic endgame of cuckpitalism, some demonic fantasy of transhumanists enhanced by "tech" to turn into hyperconsumers, RIP humanity if we ever get to that.

Oh and phuck musk he's clearly brilliant but his drive is missguided. Why go and phuck up mars when there's plenty of more simple problems to fix here, we don't need trillion dollar tech when people in this planet still lack access to food and clean water, etc. It's just cope.

Leave mars alone and fix up the planet before going to turn another one into chit. Otherwise we'll become some of those kunt locust aliens that consume a planets resources, phuck it up and leave to another one, nah no thanks boyo...
post 1613552011 08-14-2020, 03:01 PM
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Originally Posted By leafs43⏩
It'll never work.

All it does is create a price floor for living.

Also, prepare for the sob stories of, "I spent all my UBI on scratch offs and booze, now I am getting evicted"
That's why for it to work there needs to be a MASSIVE reconfiguration of how society must function. Imagine if half the money spent on wars and so on was use instead to study and fix the underlying causes that make a degenerate scum bag waste everything in booze and drugs. I bet theres a solution to those problems if people really look into it, also the education system and core values of the society would need to change. Ironically this would have to be pushed along with a philosophical indoctrination into a more minimalistic approach to life, ubi won't be enough if EVERYONE buys the next new shiny thing. But There's more than enough fo everybody had more modest and less toxic aspirations instead of the degenerate crap being pushed by media/enterteinment/etc.
post 1613552391 08-14-2020, 03:07 PM
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Originally Posted By Drew23⏩
Why would I hope for someone to starve to death? If you CHOOSE not to work and expect me to pay more to support your lazy ass, then F U C K Y O U. People who want to work will always find work.
Why do you "NEED" to "WORK" and can you blame an average chump for not wanting to do a totally pointless menial unfulfilling job? The whole praise for "hard work" as viewed by capitalism is nothing but COPE and manipulation. We have thousands of years of human knowledge and advanced technology but is it really impossible to give every person enough food and shelter to be able to secure a living?

You need to think this outside of the box of capitalist ideology and you will see we could have this . And why would you be mad if the guy next to you does nothing and still can live with dignity? If your own well being and security was also endowed to you just for the sake of being an evolved human why would you care?


You would be free to do anything you wanted instead of being salty
post 1613552481 08-14-2020, 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted By beegeener⏩
if everyone got a higher standard of living how would jeff bezos afford his next cruise ship and stadium? if people weren't stressed about money and bills they might have time to innovate and be creative and it could hurt big corporations profits. i say we all lobby against an UBI so we can keep and hoard all our wealth because we are all billionaires and we cant let others have a slightly bigger slice of the pie. We have 99% of it and lets keep it that way
This boyo gets it
post 1613552541 08-14-2020, 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted By wincel⏩
Sorry to break it to you, but u aren't going to be able to cheat your way into becoming smarter. We're more likely to figure out robot intelligence before we figure out how to make you smart enough to pass physics class bud.
Sounds like you have a personal problem
Originally Posted By suave2000⏩
Bro that sounds horrible, phuck transhumanism that's downright EVIL. That's the dark diabolic endgame of cuckpitalism, some demonic fantasy of transhumanists enhanced by "tech" to turn into hyperconsumers, RIP humanity if we ever get to that.
Well the alternative is automated Communism with Brave New World overlords, and at that point we’ll become content and no longer innovate technology and explore the universe.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_decline
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Societal_collapse#By_absorption
post 1613552631 08-14-2020, 03:09 PM
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Originally Posted By Carousel⏩
Cop here. Guess what all the low-medium level crack heads spent their COVID cash on?
Yeah but that opened up new job positions in the drug lord market.

With the way things are going and how degenerate society is becoming; hard drugs will probably be legalized at some point.

Just let morons kill them selves eith drugs. That's one less idiot.
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post 1613552931 08-14-2020, 03:13 PM
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i like the part where people that are barely scratching 100k a year lump themselves in to the megarich 1% category with bezos and gates, and start calling everyone commies. little do they know they are one little accident away from being stripped of all their money/wealth and being sent in to poverty! while on the opposite side of becoming a potential billionare is thousands and thousands of years in the other direction, but that is what seems more realistic to them
post 1613553521 08-14-2020, 03:20 PM
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Originally Posted By BulkingIsHard⏩
Sounds like you have a personal problem



Well the alternative is automated Communism with Brave New World overlords, and at that point we’ll become content and no longer innovate technology and explore the universe.
Not really i see it more as scifi-ish semi rural slowed down civilization. Where your bakcyard grows itslef fruits and vegetables and meat for you to eat and the energy is constant and reliable through some whatever technology. But people desire and consume a lot less as they're not cucked by marketing from birth anymore. So people are healthier, fitter, smarter because they have education and time to think, happier etc. Not a dystopian nightmare like in brave new world where everyone is constantly high etc.
post 1613553821 08-14-2020, 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted By Destor⏩
I think it'll become a necessity in the future as we get deeper and deeper into automation
Literally came in to post this, so thanks for saving me the effort.
post 1613554401 08-14-2020, 03:30 PM
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Imagine if some dude came up to you and was like "hey maaan, I don't want to work. I just want to sit at home and jack off all day. Can I take some money out of your paycheck to fund my rotting and jacking off lifestyle?"

Any sane person would tell him to fuk off and get a job
post 1613554481 08-14-2020, 03:31 PM
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Yes! It's called walking into your local bank, opening up a trading account, buy stocks that pay dividends and profit??? But people won't do that since it demands a certain level of effort and budgeting. But we can't have that can we? They would rather take the 100 billion the USA gives to corporations and divide it between the 325.7 million Americans. 100 Billion divided by 325.7 million is about 307USD per citizen. We're really making big bank boyos here. I make 402$ annually with 6500$ invested in the stock market and will probably end up making 2000$ per year thanks to dividends before December.

"The government spends about $100 billion annually on corporate welfare, according to a 2012 Cato study. That amount includes direct grants and loans to companies, as well as indirect aid for industries."https://www.cato.org/cato-handbook-p...erest-spending

Lol at thinking "Corporate Welfare" is just free money. It's money injected into corporations that need it and corporations that in many cases have to repay those loans.

If we dismantled the military we would get an additional 617 billion. 717 billion in total and that is 2200 dollars per American citizen. This is a one time payment as well since I'm adding the whole budget up. 2200 USD divided by 12 is about 183$ per month. Eyyyy we're really saving the poor with 183$ per month. Not only that because we haven't talked about the hundreds of companies that would end up leaving or going out of business since they can't get loans.

Do the leftists on here even do math?
post 1613560141 08-14-2020, 04:45 PM
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Originally Posted By BigElephant⏩
It's supported by the saved costs from automation. Labor will be free and those saved costs should be passed on to the people whose jobs are lost due to automation. Again though, this isn't feasible or affordable right now, but it will be a much more serious conversation in 10-20 years.
This was my general understanding. Think of it like income tax paid on robots.
Originally Posted By ErnieMccracken⏩
If you don't, those people won't quietly starve to death like you are hoping. They will burn every major city to the ground and destroy the country.
Too many people dismiss this.
Originally Posted By Drew23⏩
Why would I hope for someone to starve to death? If you CHOOSE not to work and expect me to pay more to support your lazy ass, then F U C K Y O U.People who want to work will always find work.
Sorry, gotta disagree with you on this one.
Originally Posted By Aristotelian⏩
And the most brutal pill of all is that the lack of univeraal health care is a major driver in keeping poor either poor or unhealthy or both in this country.

Let that sink in before advocating for UBI.
Lack of universal health care is a huge factor.

Not mentioned yet:

- Our current system actually discourages working because of the "cliffs" in the system where earning $1 over the arbitrary cut off you can lose $1000 in assistance thus trapping people that can't create a dependable increase of that size in their incomes in one big jump.

- Alternatives to UBI:
Negative Income Tax

Income Tax deducts money from earnings above an earnings threshold, and a Negative Income Tax pays money to the employee below the threshold: so a Negative Income Tax scheme functions in the same way as a Tax Credit scheme. The only difference is in the specification. A Tax Credit scheme specifies the amount to be paid out when there are no earnings, along with a withdrawal rate as earnings rise. For a Negative Income Tax, the threshold is specified along with tax rates above and below the threshold. If the rates above and below the threshold are the same, then for earnings below the threshold, the same amount is paid out for earnings of £z below the threshold as would be collected in tax on earnings of £z above the threshold.

As the system is essentially the same as a Tax Credit scheme, the same diagram applies. Different rates above and below the threshold would result in the EF having different slopes above and below earnings of £y per week. Administrative considerations would be the same as for Tax Credits.
Participation Income

Qualifying forms of participation would be socially useful activities, from caring for an elderly relative to volunteering in a neighbourhood project, engaging in vocational training or studying for an educational qualification. Here’s how Atkinson himself describes his idea:

In my proposal, the basic income would be paid conditional on participation. I should stress at once that this is not limited to labour market participation. While the qualifying conditions would include people working as an employee or self-employed, absent from work on grounds of sickness or injury, unable to work on grounds of disability and unemployed but available for work, it would also include people engaging in approved forms of education or training, caring for young, elderly or disabled dependents or undertaking approved forms of voluntary work, etc. The condition involves neither payment nor work; it is a wider definition of social contribution. (Atkinson 1996, 68–69)

According to Atkinson’s proposal, participation would include all forms of paid employment, but also volunteering, full-time education, active engagement in seeking employment, caring for children, the disabled or the elderly. In this sense, the participation income is conceptually different from workfare as the notion of social participation goes well beyond the narrow frame of participation in the labour-market. Like workfare, however, the participation income retains a strong notion of eligibility conditions. In a way, the universal basic income proposal also entails some degree of conditionality, in that normally its supporters suggest it is paid to citizens or residents only. This condition is not at all innocuous, because definitions of citizens can be quite problematic. Who is a citizen? Rights could be narrowed down considerably, depending on which definition we choose.
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post 1613561481 08-14-2020, 05:00 PM
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#90
  1. NuggzTheNinja
  2. Exotic Game Hunter
  1. NuggzTheNinja
  2. Exotic Game Hunter
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Yes under the following condition: you can either take the money, or you can vote. One or the other. It's a 10 year commitment to either take the money or vote.
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