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Forum » Decline of Christianity is causing the decline of the west
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Thread: Decline of Christianity is causing the decline of the west

post 1613859561 08-17-2020, 09:13 PM
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It's not causing the decline, but it's certainly a large part of the decline. The attack on Christianity is part of the broader attack on Western civilization.
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post 1613861291 08-17-2020, 09:32 PM
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Originally Posted By KBurn⏩
Non/ex-Christian here, so I have no reason to speak up for the sky fairy, but its becoming more and more apparent to a lot of people that this is happening.

Christianity has brought about:
- Move from matriarchy to patriarchyPatriarchy was always the default in most cultures in the world. The most notable exception is probably the Tibetan empire
- renaissance - This is a massive one.This had nothing to do with Christianity itself, it just happened to be in Christian lands. There were already previous Renaissances before (Carolingian Renaissance for example) and they didn't happen because of religion but because of peace and prosperity. Greek exodus and trade republic wealth was one of the reasons for the this Renaissance to occur.
- Better social order via nuclear family units, enforced virginity and monogamyThis always existed beforehand.
- language preservation and advancementNothing to do with Christianity. This has to do with education and the institutionalization of a centralized language which began to happen in Europe towards the 1650, during the Age of Absolutism.
- ArtMight have been influenced during a certain period but art is always changing and it takes the shape of its environment and creators.
- Exploration via missionariesMissionaries always came after those who sought wealth. Missionaries were not allowed into the East India Company until the monopoly expired in the 1800s due to not wanting to cause unrest with the locals and upset trade. Columbus was looking for a route to India to improve the flow of goods since Constantinople fell and the Venetians had exclusive trading rights in the Eastern Mediterranean.
- Cultural dominance via missionariesCultural dominance tends to be institutional via a enforced legal framework or economical. Changing religions is not cultural, it is religious.
- Casus belli to wage war and exterminate the natives elsewhere because they're devil worshippersHalf the natives in the New World were allies to the Spanish in their conquests. In Portuguese colonies, the Portuguese intermarried with the natives.
- Uniting culturally/religiouslyThis is a byproduct.
- Critical thinking by trying to interpret a book made by hundreds of authors, half of whom are madmen.Most people couldn't read until the 1800s. By then there was already a European global dominance in all continents.
- Future-looking, do good now so you enter heaven. Save more now so you can buy a house. Be industrious, so you enjoy later.This only started to come with Calvinist Protestantism.

Without Christianity
- Move from patriarchy to feminismThis is a counter cultural movement. Most people still adhere to a patriarchal system.
- Infiltration by other religions, particularly buddhism, encourage LDARBuddhism is about balance.
- Social order is fukked, if I need to elaborate, then you're fukked too. This is the biggest one.There is social order in Judaism, Confucianism, Shintoism, and Hinduism.
- Submission to other culturesThis happens regardless of the religion. The first generations of East India Company officers started to dress in regional indian fashions, learn the language, and marry locally.
- Laziness via belief in science rather than researching the bible.Science has made things easier and faster. Most people don't research the bible. That is for theologists.
- Guilt over dominance of other peoples/culturesCounter cultural trend as well where people see repent for the past as a way to create progress and unity for the future
- Present/past-looking - Why bother about the future, since we're all headed for oblivion anyway?This is an old philosophy.

Everyday, we move further away from the light of god.
Edited for commentary.
post 1613861561 08-17-2020, 09:35 PM
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post 1613874151 08-18-2020, 01:12 AM
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Agreed op. The autists of the Enlightenment saw fit to kill god, but not one of them in their staggering intelligence had the foresight to see what that would usher in. The European question since then for centuries has literally only been how to replace god. There is no solution but to return to the only principle that worked.
post 1613874551 08-18-2020, 01:28 AM
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The left has filled the void with their politics.
post 1613874581 08-18-2020, 01:29 AM
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Yes. It caused the rise of atheism and the church of science.
You can look at the pro-lfie/pro-choice thread to see how low some people can fall once they become atheists.
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post 1613874641 08-18-2020, 01:31 AM
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Originally Posted By brosapiens⏩
Yes. It caused the rise of atheism and the church of science.
You can look at the pro-lfie/pro-choice thread to see how low some people can fall once they become atheists.
"the church of science" lets you make meaningful predictions for experiments
post 1613875061 08-18-2020, 01:46 AM
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Well in the name of Christianity more people have died than any other group or religion
Christian wars: 113.8 million
compared to
16.4 million who died in Muslim wars.
Stalin's reign: estimates usually around 20 million
Mao's cultural revolution: 40-60 million in most estimates
Khmer Rouge (Cambodian genocide): 2-3 million
Nazi Germany: 12 million in Holocaust, countless more as a result of military campaigns/WW2
King Leopold II: 8 million in Colonial Congo
Many Many more examples, including the Rwandan genocide, Sadam, etc
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post 1613875081 08-18-2020, 01:46 AM
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Originally Posted By wincel⏩
"the church of science" lets you make meaningful predictions for experiments
Yeah, it also taught me that gender is a social construct and attending BLM protests will actually protect you from CV.
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post 1613875211 08-18-2020, 01:49 AM
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Originally Posted By KBurn⏩
Christianity has brought about:
- Move from matriarchy to patriarchy
- renaissance - This is a massive one.
- Better social order via nuclear family units, enforced virginity and monogamy
- language preservation and advancement
- Art
- Exploration via missionaries
- Cultural dominance via missionaries
- Casus belli to wage war and exterminate the natives elsewhere because they're devil worshippers
- Uniting culturally/religiously
- Critical thinking by trying to interpret a book made by hundreds of authors, half of whom are madmen.
- Future-looking, do good now so you enter heaven. Save more now so you can buy a house. Be industrious, so you enjoy later.
You forgot fun things like Witch Burnings and Inquisitions.
My personal pronouns are: Don't talk to me/Fck off
post 1613875351 08-18-2020, 01:53 AM
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Originally Posted By Stizzel⏩
Christianity teaches solid principles, not the least of which being the logic they learned from the greeks.
Solid logical principles like tying up a suspected witch, throwing them into the river, and if they drown, nice and innocent, but if they float, burn them as a witch? Genius level logic.
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post 1613875361 08-18-2020, 01:53 AM
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Originally Posted By Weightaholic⏩
You forgot fun things like Witch Burnings and Inquisitions.
Wrong. Those things were done by men allegedly in the name of religion.
There's no mention of a Christian Jihad in the Bible.
Don't get confused.
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post 1613875381 08-18-2020, 01:54 AM
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Originally Posted By brosapiens⏩
Yeah, it also taught me that gender is a social construct and attending BLM protests will actually protect you from CV.
In what peer reviewed journal did you read that?

"Gender" is believed to be a social construct, but biological sex and phenotypes are not...

Show me what research determined that BLM protests protect you from CV.

Also, there's this whole other area of science called physics that actually makes quantitative meaningful predictions about the universe. And one of them that has been shown to be true time and again is that there is no absolute time for the universe. This means that a guy praying to god to change his future and another guy praying to god to change his future might perceive each others' pasts as their futures depending on their velocities. This means God has no power to change anything. How do you reconcile that with prayer and free will in any meaningful sense? Let's also not forget that while the coarse scale nature of the universe is entirely deterministic, fundamentally, it is random. So, not only can God not change anything about the universe, he also has an issue of not really being able to define its state. It is YOU who observes, not God.

post 1613875681 08-18-2020, 02:02 AM
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Originally Posted By wincel⏩
In what peer reviewed journal did you read that?

"Gender" is believed to be a social construct, but biological sex and phenotypes are not...

Show me what research determined that BLM protests protect you from CV.

Also, there's this whole other area of science called physics that actually makes quantitative meaningful predictions about the universe. And one of them that has been shown to be true time and again is that there is no absolute time for the universe. This means that a guy praying to god to change his future and another guy praying to god to change his future might perceive each others' pasts as their futures depending on their velocities. This means God has no power to change anything. How do you reconcile that with prayer and free will in any meaningful sense? Let's also not forget that while the coarse scale nature of the universe is entirely deterministic, fundamentally, it is random. So, not only can God not change anything about the universe, he also has an issue of not really being able to define its state. It is YOU who observes, not God.

That's why I said the Church of Science.
It doesn't represent actual science. It represents some people in positions of power - the so called experts and specialists - who manipulate the masses in the name of science.
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post 1613875781 08-18-2020, 02:06 AM
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Originally Posted By brosapiens⏩
That's why I said the Church of Science.
It doesn't represent actual science. It represents some people on positions of power - the so called experts and specialists - which manipulate the masses in the name of science.
Well I've often seen "Church of Science" thrown around to refer to things like climate change, which is established research...It just reeks of antiscientific propaganda. Your bible can't even make a single meaningful prediction for any repeatable experiment. It is a collection of fables designed to propose a kind of ethical framework for which one ought to live. To act as if this is somehow an alternative to science is absolutely absurd. Furthermore, much of the bible is incredibly backwards and contradictory, making it mostly useless as a true ethical framework.
post 1613875871 08-18-2020, 02:08 AM
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Originally Posted By wincel⏩
Well I've often seen "Church of Science" thrown around to refer to things like climate change, which is established research...It just reeks of antiscientific propaganda. Your bible can't even make a single meaningful prediction for any repeatable experiment. It is a collection of fables designed to propose a kind of ethical framework for which one ought to live. To act as if this is somehow an alternative to science is absolutely absurd. Furthermore, much of the bible is incredibly backwards and contradictory, making it mostly useless as a true ethical framework.
To each his own.
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post 1613876091 08-18-2020, 02:13 AM
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Originally Posted By brosapiens⏩
To each his own.
Not really because there is such a thing as truth and falsehood. Unless you have an answer for how you can reconcile an observer god perceiving the universe along some absolute timeline with what we know about the universe, your point of view really is retarded and unjustifiable. There are some philosophical loopholes you can take, but they aren't particularly satisfying, and they do inherently contradict the bible if you take them.
post 1613876101 08-18-2020, 02:14 AM
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Yes OP life was so much better when the Roman Catholic Church ruled Europe and you could get persecuted for daring to suggest that the Earth isn’t the center of the universe. 10/10 thread.
All it takes is Mookie Betts, Steph Curry, and Joe Burrow all sitting in the same car in order for one drunk driver to make the world a significantly better place.
post 1613876191 08-18-2020, 02:17 AM
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Originally Posted By wincel⏩
Not really because there is such a thing as truth and falsehood. Unless you have an answer for how you can reconcile an observer god perceiving the universe along some absolute timeline with what we know about the universe, your point of view really is retarded and unjustifiable.
Imagine thinking that you know much about the Universe. Imagine believing in a Big Bang because of ... uhm ... reasons.
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post 1613876281 08-18-2020, 02:19 AM
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Originally Posted By brosapiens⏩
Imagine thinking that you know much about the Universe. Imagine believing in a Big Bang because of ... uhm ... reasons.
You don't even need to know about the big bang for this. I'm asking you to reconcile God's absolute timeline with special relativity. If you concede that there is no such timeline, as many religious physicists do, then you must also concede that the entire notion of praying and having a response dynamically changing in terms of your own free will is a pure lie. You must also explain the philosophical contradiction of being able to observe something without putting coordinates on it. To observe anything at all is to measure it in some sense. If God does not perceive a timeline, God cannot observe a timeline. This means he cannot dynamically respond to you.
post 1613876491 08-18-2020, 02:24 AM
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Originally Posted By wincel⏩
You don't even need to know about the big bang for this. I'm asking you to reconcile God's absolute timeline with special relativity.
Imagine believing in higher dimensions and asking to constrain God in the three dimensional system He created.
This is like asking two hand-drawn stick figures to debate the nature of their drawer by using the two dimensional system's rules they are constrained by.
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post 1613876611 08-18-2020, 02:26 AM
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Originally Posted By brosapiens⏩
Imagine believing in higher dimensions and asking to constrain God in the three dimensional system He created.
This is like asking two hand-drawn stick figures to explain the nature of their drawer by using the two dimensional system they are constrained by.
The dimension number is irrelevant here. You're trying to sidestep the issue with bullshyt either because you refuse to try to understand what I am saying or you are scared shytless it will reveal everything you believe in to be a total fuking lie. I've had this debate with many religious physicists and they never have a good answer. They always end up arguing they want it to be true and don't take it literally. LMFAO.

It really is a very simple philosophical question that ought to be answerable by the bible. The painfully obvious truth is that the bible is not the word of God. The bible is a story written by men many years ago who did not know what we now know about the universe. Their entire perception of time and how a God ought to be able to perceive the universe was completely wrong.
post 1613876671 08-18-2020, 02:28 AM
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Originally Posted By wincel⏩
The dimension number is irrelevant here. You're trying to sidestep the issue with bullshyt either because you refuse to try to understand what I am saying or you are scared shytless it will reveal everything you believe in to be a total fuking lie.
Just because you don't understand what dimensions are does not mean it is bullchit.
It just shows that you are limited by what humans have been able to understand about the world they live in until now. At least officially.

As you can see the Church of Science denies your right to think for yourself.
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post 1613876811 08-18-2020, 02:31 AM
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Originally Posted By brosapiens⏩
Just because you don't understand what dimensions are does not mean it is bullchit.
It just shows that you are limited by what humans have been able to understand about the world they live in until now. At least officially.

As you can see the Church of Science denies your right to think for yourself.
And again you sidestep the question. And then you underhandedly insult me. I know what dimensions are as well as I need to in order to understand these models. What we understand about the world now dwarfs what people understood when the bible was written. Stop trying to steer the conversation away. Answer the question. How can you reconcile special relativity with the notion of an external God with an absolute timeline? And if it doesn't have an absolute timeline and doesn't exist anywhere in the universe, how does it measure time and perceive what came before and after in any sensible way for any part of the universe? And how can God dynamically respond to your prayers and change your future, assuming you have free will as the bible implies?

There's an inherently contradictory notion in the bible of a God observing a universe externally as it dynamically evolves uniformly. People visualize a 3d bubble and a God outside of the bubble somehow watching. In reality, there is no universal timeline, and it is just a higher dimensional object. Time itself being a dimension means the object itself doesn't change since we require change for time. If it does change, it changes along some external time dimension unrelated to what we mean by time within this universe.
post 1613876921 08-18-2020, 02:35 AM
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Originally Posted By wincel⏩
And again you sidestep the question. And then you underhandedly insult me. I know what dimensions are as well as I need to in order to understand these models. What we understand about the world now dwarfs what people understood when the bible was written. Stop trying to steer the conversation away. Answer the question. How can you reconcile special relativity with the notion of an external God with an absolute timeline? And if it doesn't have an absolute timeline and doesn't exist anywhere in the universe, how does it measure time and perceive what came before and after in any sensible way for any part of the universe? And how can God dynamically respond to your prayers and change your future, assuming you have free will as the bible implies?
You seem more insecure about this religion thing than me.
FYI I was asking myself these questions when I was 6.
I was what you would call an atheist for the majority of my life.
So please ... if you want to challenge me give me something to work with.
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post 1613876961 08-18-2020, 02:36 AM
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Originally Posted By brosapiens⏩
You seem more insecure about this religion thing than me.
FYI I was asking myself these questions when I was 6.
I was what you would call an atheist for the majority of my life.
So please ... if you want to challenge me give me something to work with.
I just did. I gave you the theory of special relativity and God's absolute timeline of the universe and his dynamically changing it in response to your decisions. The two cannot really be reconciled.
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I thought the church of science was being referred to as the church of scientology. I was like is misc really trying to prove scientology.....

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Originally Posted By wincel⏩
There's an inherently contradictory notion in the bible of a God observing a universe externally as it dynamically evolves uniformly. People visualize a 3d bubble and a God outside of the bubble somehow watching. In reality, there is no universal timeline, and it is just a higher dimensional object. Time itself being a dimension means the object itself doesn't change since we require change for time. If it does change, it changes along some external time dimension unrelated to what we mean by time within this universe.
Again you make the same mistake two straw figures would make - trying to explain events in a higher order system. As far as you know God's system is a systems creator.
What this means is that new systems can have any rules and physics systems as far as we are concerned.
Why would you try to explain that higher order system by using a lower order rule such as time ?
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post 1613877151 08-18-2020, 02:42 AM
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Originally Posted By brosapiens⏩
Again you make the same mistake two straw figures would make - trying to explain events in a higher order system. As far as you know God's system is a systems creator.
What this means is that new systems can have any rule and physics systems as far as we are concerned.
Why would you try to explain that higher order system by using measures such as time ?
The problem is your bible actually implies how God perceives THIS universe in the constraints of THIS system. That's the problem that you are ignoring. It explicitly creates a model of God the observer watching a 3d universe unfold dynamically with a global timeline. This model has been experimentally falsified. There is no reconciliation, much to the chagrin of the religious folks in denial. If the bible were really the truth, we would be able to reconcile it with everything we know about the universe. Religion is a mental virus. It's a kind of meme that refuses to die.
post 1613877211 08-18-2020, 02:44 AM
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Originally Posted By wincel⏩
The problem is your bible actually implies how God perceives THIS universe in the constraints of THIS system. That's the problem that you are ignoring.
You do understand that the Bible has to explain things in such a way that humans can understand, right?
Fun fact: if you read the Old Testament in Hebrew you will see that they way it was given to us has nothing to do with the English translation. English cannot express what Hebrew can. I only read some passages in a word-for-word, verbatim, ovoerfluous translation to English and it's eye opening.
Golden hands
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