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Forum » Dropsets/going to failure bad for gains?
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Thread: Dropsets/going to failure bad for gains?

post 1616219091 09-11-2020, 10:07 AM
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Dropsets/going to failure bad for gains?

just saw a clip of Lee Priest and Mike O'Hearn talking about how doing tons of dropsets/supersets and going to failure every rep (exactly what im doing) isnt optimal at all for gains, unfortunately they didnt go into great detail explaining why. They also mention outliers like Dorian Yates and Tom Platz. Now i know all these guys are on drugs but they also obviously know their sh*t when it comes to building muscle, so im confused here, any tips? is training like a madman going to exhaustion all the time really counterproductive? and if so how should you train then?
post 1616219591 09-11-2020, 10:11 AM
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However the hell you want bro. Sports science changes all the time and everyone has their own ideas. Do whatever you enjoy that keeps you going back. Hard work over time means gainz.
post 1616219871 09-11-2020, 10:13 AM
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post 1616220151 09-11-2020, 10:16 AM
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Depends A LOT on if you're natty or not. If you're not on gear, your body is simply not going to be able to recover fast enough in between workouts and you'll constantly be in a "deficit" just in terms of the body lagging behind trying to heal itself.

If you're natty, I'd suggest picking ONE workout to go to absolute failure on, preferably your very last exercise. Don't do it for each exercise on each set though, or you're just over taxxing yourself.

More volume and intensity doesn't always mean more gains. Balance the intensity with the recovery.
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post 1616220221 09-11-2020, 10:16 AM
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Originally Posted By Glutebrahhh⏩
However the hell you want bro. Sports science changes all the time and everyone has their own ideas. Do whatever you enjoy that keeps you going back. Hard work over time means gainz.
i mean i definitely feel like it does since i've made significant strength and decent size gains since i started taking lifting seriously, but if i'm slowing my progress by training the way i am i'd definitely like to know so i can change it
post 1616220521 09-11-2020, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted By KathleenRyan⏩
Depends A LOT on if you're natty or not. If you're not on gear, your body is simply not going to be able to recover fast enough in between workouts and you'll constantly be in a "deficit" just in terms of the body lagging behind trying to heal itself.

If you're natty, I'd suggest picking ONE workout to go to absolute failure on, preferably your very last exercise. Don't do it for each exercise on each set though, or you're just over taxxing yourself.

More volume and intensity doesn't always mean more gains. Balance the intensity with the recovery.
but if you're not going to failure, doesnt that mean you still have decent amount left in the tank? if thats the case is your muscle really damaged enough so that there's decent room for it to grow?
post 1616220741 09-11-2020, 10:20 AM
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Originally Posted By KathleenRyan⏩
Depends A LOT on if you're natty or not. If you're not on gear, your body is simply not going to be able to recover fast enough in between workouts and you'll constantly be in a "deficit" just in terms of the body lagging behind trying to heal itself.

If you're natty, I'd suggest picking ONE workout to go to absolute failure on, preferably your very last exercise. Don't do it for each exercise on each set though, or you're just over taxxing yourself.

More volume and intensity doesn't always mean more gains. Balance the intensity with the recovery.
That's the thing see, how do you come to know those thresholds? Next thing you know you're doing 20 second TUT 1.25kg incline db press reps to failure.
post 1616222381 09-11-2020, 10:37 AM
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You gotta make sure your diet has all the optimal macros.

This will help you in destroying your workout session the next day .

Rinse , repeat, profit.

Don't think about it too much. Those names you mentioned op , big fan of them I've always been. But they do keep over complicating things to stay relevant.


Just progress with your lifts which should be attuned to your goals
post 1616222491 09-11-2020, 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted By BallisLyfe247⏩
but if you're not going to failure, doesnt that mean you still have decent amount left in the tank? if thats the case is your muscle really damaged enough so that there's decent room for it to grow?
Yes, and yes. Typically you want at least a little bit left in the tank after most exercises, like I said if you pick an exercise to go to RPE 10 with, or absolute failure, select only one exercise (assuming you're natty).
Originally Posted By 04akhriz40⏩
That's the thing see, how do you come to know those thresholds? Next thing you know you're doing 20 second TUT 1.25kg incline db press reps to failure.
1. Don't train like a retard
2. Pay attention to how your strength and body grow, and adjust as needed from there

Most of the time it's not worth hyper analyzing things, just pay attention to how your body feels and how you're progressing and make adjustments as needed, find what works best for you, etc. Based on your avi I'm assuming you know this lol.
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post 1616222761 09-11-2020, 10:40 AM
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It really depends on what your overall program looks like

On days I only get 12-15 reps on my last work set of inclines for example, I'll grab a lighter pair of DBs and knock out enough reps to make the set be @20 reps

But I do low volume for free weights so it doesnt really have any negatives for me to extend the TUT another 10+ seconds post failure
post 1616222971 09-11-2020, 10:42 AM
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Originally Posted By KathleenRyan⏩
Yes, and yes. Typically you want at least a little bit left in the tank after most exercises, like I said if you pick an exercise to go to RPE 10 with, or absolute failure, select only one exercise (assuming you're natty).



1. Don't train like a retard
2. Pay attention to how your strength and body grow, and adjust as needed from there

Most of the time it's not worth hyper analyzing things, just pay attention to how your body feels and how you're progressing and make adjustments as needed, find what works best for you, etc. Based on your avi I'm assuming you know this lol.
it would be VERY tough for me to find that balance because recently i've been going nuts in the gym (started forcing myself to eat and the results in terms of the amount of energy i have and the strength i've gained are mindf*cking), i feel like its almost impossible to hold back because of how much i pump myself up mentally for the gym and how excited i am once i get there lol anything other than total annihilation of whatever muscle groups im working that day would feel like i let myself down, especially when both my body and mind are telling me to keep going.
post 1616223291 09-11-2020, 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted By Halfway⏩
It really depends on what your overall program looks like

On days I only get 12-15 reps on my last work set of inclines for example, I'll grab a lighter pair of DBs and knock out enough reps to make the set be @20 reps

But I do low volume for free weights so it doesnt really have any negatives for me to extend the TUT another 10+ seconds post failure
this might sound retarded (and maybe it is) but the way i train on pretty much all muscle groups is start with some weight i can hit 12-15 times, keep moving up until i can only do 2-3 reps barely, sometimes stay there a while and im done, sometimes go back down progressively. also i do dropsets on most of those (1 normal set followed immediately by the 1 dropset and on the very last set i do 2-3 dropsets in a row right after the normal set)
post 1616223681 09-11-2020, 10:50 AM
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Originally Posted By BallisLyfe247⏩
it would be VERY tough for me to find that balance because recently i've been going nuts in the gym (started forcing myself to eat and the results in terms of the amount of energy i have and the strength i've gained are mindf*cking), i feel like its almost impossible to hold back because of how much i pump myself up mentally for the gym and how excited i am once i get there lol anything other than total annihilation of whatever muscle groups im working that day would feel like i let myself down, especially when both my body and mind are telling me to keep going.
That's as much thought as you need to put into it. If you feel good, nothing hurts, and you're making progress, then that's it - stay the course lol.
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post 1616223911 09-11-2020, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted By BallisLyfe247⏩
but if you're not going to failure, doesnt that mean you still have decent amount left in the tank? if thats the case is your muscle really damaged enough so that there's decent room for it to grow?
When you get more experience you will know more or less exactly when failure is going to happen, so you will definitely not have “a decent amount” left in the tank.

If you should go to failure depends entirely on your ability to recover, both after your workout until the next workout and during the workout itself until your next set.
Regarding the latter, this is an example where it would be counter productive to go all out:

1 set: All out 12 reps
2 set: All out 10 reps
3 set: All out 8 reps
4 set: All out 8 reps
5 set: All out 7 reps

Total reps: 45

Vs.

1 set: 10 reps
2 set: 10 reps
3 set: 10 reps
4 set: 10 reps
5 set: 10 reps

Total reps: 50

On the big compounds I usually don’t go to complete failure. That said, I think it’s necessary to sometimes push yourself extra hard, go to failure and beyond etc., but it shouldn’t be every workout.
On acccesory exercises I go to failure or beyond more often.
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post 1616224771 09-11-2020, 11:02 AM
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Look into DC training. You do warmup sets with one working set on each exercise to failure with 2x rest pauses. Best way of training imo
Remember the guy that gave up? Neither does anybody else.
post 1616225271 09-11-2020, 11:08 AM
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Do the most amount of work you can recover and grow from. Many ways to get there. Dropsets are one option. Partial reps, iso holds, cluster sets, amraps, rest pause, myo reps, etc if you recover from it do it. I do them, usually on last set only.
post 1616225311 09-11-2020, 11:08 AM
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Depends on too many factors.

Generally speaking going to failure 1-3x per muscle is enough.

Going to failure on every set every workout is too taxing on the nervous system and your cortisol would be through the roof

Not going to failure impedes results

So the answer is in the middle somewhere
post 1616225571 09-11-2020, 11:10 AM
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Drop sets are a must IMO,

Going to failure every set is stupid and counterproductive.

Progressive overload. Increase weight each set until your final failure set, then drop set or strip set it.
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post 1616227241 09-11-2020, 11:28 AM
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Originally Posted By TXBuddy⏩
Drop sets are a must IMO,

Going to failure every set is stupid and counterproductive.

Progressive overload. Increase weight each set until your final failure set, then drop set or strip set it.
so you stop right before you feel like you're about to fail?
post 1616227311 09-11-2020, 11:29 AM
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Arnold says go to failure on each set. And try to push beyond failure.
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post 1616227581 09-11-2020, 11:32 AM
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Drop sets once a week per body part. Anything else is pushing it iMO.


With that being said, the single most important thing when it comes to training is going hard AND being consistent. Its pointless to look at videos of pros giving advice, spending hours reading or doing research about muscle hypertrophy etc, coming up with the perfect lifting routine, only to stick to it for 2 months then dont come back to the gym for another 6 months.


Just lift hard, hit every muscle twice a week, eat well and be consistent. After 5 years you will look great and i really doubt things like doing drop sets or not, doing push pull legs or upper/lower, doing 150 grams of protein or 200 grams will have an actual difference on the way you end up looking.
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post 1616227761 09-11-2020, 11:33 AM
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Well Dorian was going to failure for 10 sets per body part weekly.

Tom Platz was using more volume, and Lee Priest was known to do 30-40 sets per body part at a very low intensity.

You just have to understand that if you utilize very high training percentages all the time, you can't do tons of volume. And likewise, if you're doing 25+ sets per body part (if you even have the recovery capabilities to do so), it's going to have to be at much lower percentages.
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post 1616227941 09-11-2020, 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted By backinthegymbro⏩
Arnold says go to failure on each set. And try to push beyond failure.
Arnold was an absolute freak of nature, both psychologically as well as genetically. Literally he's one in a century type of person who can do that kind of volume (even more than Priest) and still go to failure all the time.
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post 1616228321 09-11-2020, 11:40 AM
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Go to failure on the last work set of that body part if doing multiple sets.
100x10 x10 x15(f)


Go to failure on the last work set of each exercise for that body part when doing a single top set.
flys 70x8 F
bench 85x8 F
penis chest press 100x15 F

After 2-4 weeks, try to stay 2 reps shy of failure for a week to recover.

Simple.
post 1616229541 09-11-2020, 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted By Hartley110⏩
Go to failure on the last work set of that body part if doing multiple sets.
100x10 x10 x15(f)


Go to failure on the last work set of each exercise for that body part when doing a single top set.
flys 70x8 F
bench 85x8 F
penis chest press 100x15 F

After 2-4 weeks, try to stay 2 reps shy of failure for a week to recover.

Simple.
You're exactly right, but it should be clarified for some people reading that the first two styles you listed are essentially the same.

Dorian Yates for example, might have done something like:

225x10
275x10
315x9 (failure)

And he would tell you he only did one set.

Whereas some other guy might say he did 3x8-10

So in some areas we're getting into semantics. But again, I agree that taking a few top sets to failure would beneficial for most people. I mean, it has to be monitored. Some people may be only able to get away with one or two sets to failure per workout.

And it should be mentioned too that some people (who aren't particularly experienced) have no idea what failure is. They think it's when it's hard. But when they have a hot girl watching, they could eek out six more reps. You have to know what you're capable of.
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post 1616231001 09-11-2020, 12:15 PM
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Originally Posted By BallisLyfe247⏩
so you stop right before you feel like you're about to fail?
Right, on all the sets except the failure set.

ex. my current incline DB press
45sx20
60sx15
80sx10
100sx10
125s to failure
Maybe hit it again during a bulk
Drop set

I do this on all beginning workout compounds. Then followed by pump sets of 5x10 or something.
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post 1616231441 09-11-2020, 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted By BallisLyfe247⏩
just saw a clip of Lee Priest and Mike O'Hearn talking about how doing tons of dropsets/supersets and going to failure every rep (exactly what im doing) isnt optimal at all for gains, unfortunately they didnt go into great detail explaining why. They also mention outliers like Dorian Yates and Tom Platz. Now i know all these guys are on drugs but they also obviously know their sh*t when it comes to building muscle, so im confused here, any tips? is training like a madman going to exhaustion all the time really counterproductive? and if so how should you train then?
If your natty, then it doesn't matter... you will hit genetic potential and the tours over.









If your on gear, it doesn't matter you will grow regardless with a caloric surplus.























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post 1616231711 09-11-2020, 12:23 PM
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training to failure only works if ur training a body part once a week. most people do not train to failure. they push themselves but not that far. most people push themselves... and then start cheating during their last reps they're using different body parts for the exercise where it's not really counted as training to failure for that muscle or those muscle groups. you'll know if you ever trained to failure
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post 1616232301 09-11-2020, 12:29 PM
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I usually do 2 warm up set, 2-3 working sets with the last set a drop set to failure. Always try to leave 1-2 in the tank and increase the weight each set depending on what I am doing/feeling.
post 1616245081 09-11-2020, 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted By KathleenRyan⏩
1. Don't train like a retard
2. Pay attention to how your strength and body grow, and adjust as needed from there

Most of the time it's not worth hyper analyzing things, just pay attention to how your body feels and how you're progressing and make adjustments as needed, find what works best for you, etc. Based on your avi I'm assuming you know this lol.
Hmmm I guess. It's more like, volume and intensity end up being arbitrary figures, where I'd never know if I'd done my 100% for muscle growth/progression. That's what annoys me.

Yeah, my avi is pretty sick lol.
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