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ITT: I aware you of a mind-blowing historical story [Stalin's purges related] [srs]
ITT: I aware you of a mind-blowing historical story [Stalin's purges related] [srs]
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10-25-2020, 11:14 PM
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#1
ITT: I aware you of a mind-blowing historical story [Stalin's purges related] [srs]
Quoted from "Stalin: Waiting for Hitler, 1929-1941" by Princeton and Hoover Institution historian Stephen Kotkin, pages 420-421:
"Throughout the four days of the Main Military Council gathering in the Kremlin, forty-two military men would take the floor; thirty-four of them would be arrested. All told, just ten of the eighty-five members as of 1937 would survive, the rest falling to 'friendly fire'. Not a single speaker defended his arrested colleagues. On the contrary, they called them fascists and scum."
Dozens of top military men, and none of them had the nerve to stand up against false accusations from the top that resulted in most of them being killed. Fuking crazy to think about srs
"Throughout the four days of the Main Military Council gathering in the Kremlin, forty-two military men would take the floor; thirty-four of them would be arrested. All told, just ten of the eighty-five members as of 1937 would survive, the rest falling to 'friendly fire'. Not a single speaker defended his arrested colleagues. On the contrary, they called them fascists and scum."
Dozens of top military men, and none of them had the nerve to stand up against false accusations from the top that resulted in most of them being killed. Fuking crazy to think about srs
10-25-2020, 11:30 PM
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#2
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Yep part of the reason that Barbarossa was a complete streamroller for the first few weeks was because Stalin had killed off 50% of the officers and 90% of the generals. The ones he kept were the Party lickspittles rather than the fighting leaders that were needed. Zhukov only survived because he was on the other side of Russia at the time, keeping an eye on the Japs.
Once the Germans invaded, the Soviets had to "rehabilitate" a lot of the officers that were still alive. General Rokosovsky was pulled out of his torture cell in the Lubyanka and needed to be sent to a health centre of some kind to recover before they packed him off to the front. His fingernails never grew back but that didn't stop him grinding pieces of the Wehrmacht under tank treads for several pitiless years.
Once the Germans invaded, the Soviets had to "rehabilitate" a lot of the officers that were still alive. General Rokosovsky was pulled out of his torture cell in the Lubyanka and needed to be sent to a health centre of some kind to recover before they packed him off to the front. His fingernails never grew back but that didn't stop him grinding pieces of the Wehrmacht under tank treads for several pitiless years.
"A stupid man's report of what a clever man says can never be accurate, because he unconsciously translates what he hears into something he can understand."
10-25-2020, 11:34 PM
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#3
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10-25-2020, 11:43 PM
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#4
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I'd guess they were told their families would be next if they tried anything funny.
Srs, read The Gulag Archipelago sometime. The Soviets would kidnap people for little to no reason, haul them off to torture cells, work them over for a few days, and then give them a list of "co-conspirators", which were usually friends and family they knew that hadn't done chit. Didn't matter. If you sign a confession that your friends were conspiring with you for counter-revolutionary activities, the torture would stop for you, but the secret police would be coming for them.
If you didn't crack, sometimes they'd give up and ship you to Siberia for the next ten years, sometimes they'd just outright torture you to death. But one thing Solzhenitzyn noted is that every man has a breaking point, and the best interrogators could usually get to it. Chilling stuff.
Srs, read The Gulag Archipelago sometime. The Soviets would kidnap people for little to no reason, haul them off to torture cells, work them over for a few days, and then give them a list of "co-conspirators", which were usually friends and family they knew that hadn't done chit. Didn't matter. If you sign a confession that your friends were conspiring with you for counter-revolutionary activities, the torture would stop for you, but the secret police would be coming for them.
If you didn't crack, sometimes they'd give up and ship you to Siberia for the next ten years, sometimes they'd just outright torture you to death. But one thing Solzhenitzyn noted is that every man has a breaking point, and the best interrogators could usually get to it. Chilling stuff.
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10-25-2020, 11:43 PM
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#5
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Originally Posted By dabbmw2002⏩
Yeah well I guess his other choice was being sent back to get more torture and mutilations from the GRU and then murdered. He survived the war, got his rewards from Stalin and actually outlived him for 15 years. Dude was kind of cold hearted, when discussing his own troops casualties with other officers, he used to say "how many matches did you burn today?". But I guess you had to be pretty hard to fight on the Eastern Front.hey, sorry for sending you to Siberia....could you lead the troops against the Nazis?
Originally Posted By dabbmw2002⏩
Basically anyone else in power would have made a better choice at the start of WWII because Stalin refused to listen to the numerous people telling him the Germans were about to invade; and presumably no-one else would have killed so many competent officers. After that initial dismal start, Stalin's war leadership was quite reasonable, because he put ideology aside and let merit determine who lead the armies.be interesting to see what would have become of Russia of Lenin hadn't died in 24, or if Trotsky had gotten power
No idea about Trotsky but Lenin was a murderous cocksucker, just not as bad as Stalin. I guess any other leader probably wouldn't have wiped out as many people, so Russia would be a better place today.
"A stupid man's report of what a clever man says can never be accurate, because he unconsciously translates what he hears into something he can understand."
10-25-2020, 11:46 PM
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#6
Originally Posted By Mr
Mirin the knowledge. Any books or resources you'd recommend on the USSR? Especially ones focusing on more of the relatively sideline figures (generals, commissars, lesser known politburo members, etc.), but any at all would be of interest.Yep part of the reason that Barbarossa was a complete streamroller for the first few weeks was because Stalin had killed off 50% of the officers and 90% of the generals. The ones he kept were the Party lickspittles rather than the fighting leaders that were needed. Zhukov only survived because he was on the other side of Russia at the time, keeping an eye on the Japs.
Once the Germans invaded, the Soviets had to "rehabilitate" a lot of the officers that were still alive. General Rokosovsky was pulled out of his torture cell in the Lubyanka and needed to be sent to a health centre of some kind to recover before they packed him off to the front. His fingernails never grew back but that didn't stop him grinding pieces of the Wehrmacht under tank treads for several pitiless years.
Once the Germans invaded, the Soviets had to "rehabilitate" a lot of the officers that were still alive. General Rokosovsky was pulled out of his torture cell in the Lubyanka and needed to be sent to a health centre of some kind to recover before they packed him off to the front. His fingernails never grew back but that didn't stop him grinding pieces of the Wehrmacht under tank treads for several pitiless years.
10-25-2020, 11:46 PM
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#7
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Originally Posted By FA*******⏩
If you want a fuller picture, readGulag: A Historyby Anne Applebaum. Solzhenitsyn gives a harrowing personal look at the gulag but his scope, while broad, is necessarily not complete. Applebaum's work is exhaustive.I'd guess they were told their families would be next if they tried anything funny.
Srs, read The Gulag Archipelago sometime. The Soviets would kidnap people for little to no reason, haul them off to torture cells, work them over for a few days, and then give them a list of "co-conspirators", which were usually friends and family they knew that hadn't done chit. Didn't matter. If you sign a confession that your friends were conspiring with you for counter-revolutionary activities, the torture would stop for you, but the secret police would be coming for them.
Srs, read The Gulag Archipelago sometime. The Soviets would kidnap people for little to no reason, haul them off to torture cells, work them over for a few days, and then give them a list of "co-conspirators", which were usually friends and family they knew that hadn't done chit. Didn't matter. If you sign a confession that your friends were conspiring with you for counter-revolutionary activities, the torture would stop for you, but the secret police would be coming for them.
"A stupid man's report of what a clever man says can never be accurate, because he unconsciously translates what he hears into something he can understand."
10-25-2020, 11:50 PM
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#8
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Originally Posted By OlHoss⏩
Stalin: The Court of the Red Tsarby Simon Sebag Montefiore talks about Stalin's rule but the author very much made sure to talk about the other major figures of the time. They were a pretty interesting and tough bunch of people but Stalin had them in absolute terror.Mirin the knowledge. Any books or resources you'd recommend on the USSR? Especially ones focusing on more of the relatively sideline figures (generals, commissars, lesser known politburo members, etc.), but any at all would be of interest.
"A stupid man's report of what a clever man says can never be accurate, because he unconsciously translates what he hears into something he can understand."
10-25-2020, 11:53 PM
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#9
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10-25-2020, 11:54 PM
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#10
Originally Posted By FA*******⏩
Tried to rep but I've given out too many over the past 24h...I'd guess they were told their families would be next if they tried anything funny.
Srs, read The Gulag Archipelago sometime. The Soviets would kidnap people for little to no reason, haul them off to torture cells, work them over for a few days, and then give them a list of "co-conspirators", which were usually friends and family they knew that hadn't done chit. Didn't matter. If you sign a confession that your friends were conspiring with you for counter-revolutionary activities, the torture would stop for you, but the secret police would be coming for them.
If you didn't crack, sometimes they'd give up and ship you to Siberia for the next ten years, sometimes they'd just outright torture you to death. But one thing Solzhenitzyn noted is that every man has a breaking point, and the best interrogators could usually get to it. Chilling stuff.
Srs, read The Gulag Archipelago sometime. The Soviets would kidnap people for little to no reason, haul them off to torture cells, work them over for a few days, and then give them a list of "co-conspirators", which were usually friends and family they knew that hadn't done chit. Didn't matter. If you sign a confession that your friends were conspiring with you for counter-revolutionary activities, the torture would stop for you, but the secret police would be coming for them.
If you didn't crack, sometimes they'd give up and ship you to Siberia for the next ten years, sometimes they'd just outright torture you to death. But one thing Solzhenitzyn noted is that every man has a breaking point, and the best interrogators could usually get to it. Chilling stuff.
It's only my list brah. The amount of ruthlessness is absurd. NKVD "interrogators" would do the most insane chit possible, like force feeding so called conspirators their own chit.
You're definitely dead on the money about the co-conspirator point, although I still find it crazy no groups formed to stage a coup given Stalin's actions in that period. It's harrowing to think that one man could have so much power over a massive country. Can't help but be somewhat pessimistic about human nature when you hear about what humans will and won't do in extreme circumstances
10-25-2020, 11:58 PM
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#11
Originally Posted By Mr
Thanks for the suggestions, I appreciate it brah. The only directly USSR related book I've read is the one mentioned in the OP. I'd recommend it for an extraordinarily detailed account of Stalin's day-to-day activities and mindset. It touched on a number of other figures, but with the amount of names mentioned it was hard to keep track of the detailsStalin: The Court of the Red Tsarby Simon Sebag Montefiore talks about Stalin's rule but the author very much made sure to talk about the other major figures of the time. They were a pretty interesting and tough bunch of people but Stalin had them in absolute terror.
10-26-2020, 12:04 AM
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#12
Originally Posted By dabbmw2002⏩
I'm not super aware on many of the exact differences between them, but one which I'm sure of is that Stalin was much more pragmatic in his foreign policy than Trotsky. Stalin adopted sort of a realpolitik approach, where he focused on what was best for the USSR. Trotsky on the other hand thought they should be more principled in choosing their allies, and more active in fomenting socialist revolutions abroad. Stalin also incorporated a lot of elements of nationalism, and focused heavily on celebrating the regional cultures of the USSR, which I believe was taboo for a lot of Marxists who wanted to focus strictly on class.I agree that Lenin was cold blooded. What I find curious, is the split between Trotsky and Stalin. Trotsky was obviously by his literature and his assassination a huge critic of Stalin, yet Trotsky deified Lenin. Who was closer to their master, Stalin or Trotsky?
The one one common theme in the writing of Marxists, is the accusation that other Marxists aren't true Marxists. Lenin, Trotsky and Stalin spent so much time attacking others for bastardizing Marx, or accusing others of opportunism or chauvinism. At the end of the day, regardless of how you interpret Marx, or build on his works like Lenin or Trotsky, the philosophy is poison.
The one one common theme in the writing of Marxists, is the accusation that other Marxists aren't true Marxists. Lenin, Trotsky and Stalin spent so much time attacking others for bastardizing Marx, or accusing others of opportunism or chauvinism. At the end of the day, regardless of how you interpret Marx, or build on his works like Lenin or Trotsky, the philosophy is poison.
10-26-2020, 12:11 AM
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#13
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10-26-2020, 12:14 AM
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#14
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Originally Posted By dabbmw2002⏩
reppedkThe one one common theme in the writing of Marxists, is the accusation that other Marxists aren't true Marxists. Lenin, Trotsky and Stalin spent so much time attacking others forbastardizingMarx.
10-26-2020, 12:15 AM
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#15
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10-26-2020, 12:23 AM
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#16
Originally Posted By dabbmw2002⏩
Great points brah.One of the big splits between Trotsky and Stalin, was the idea of State socialism. In Trotsky viewpoint, true Socialism couldn't exist in a State form where it would have to interact with Capitalism abroad. He initially envisioned that Russia would be the first of many dominos to fall, followed by Germany, Italy, and later England.
Who was right? Neither. There would be no global revolution for Trotsky, and Stalin never implemented Socialism, but rather bureaucratization.
Who was right? Neither. There would be no global revolution for Trotsky, and Stalin never implemented Socialism, but rather bureaucratization.
I think it can also be argued that Stalin's idealistic side eroded away as he faced the difficulties of leading. It was easy for Trotsky to criticize when he was working in a theoretical realm rather than a political one. In any case, the ideas they agreed upon were unsalvageable despite the implementation
10-26-2020, 12:30 AM
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#17
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Originally Posted By Mr
All correct. Not many people know that much about WW2, just the bs we're fed in public high schools/basic college history courses. Which always dumb it down drastically, and sometimes even outright lie about things.Yeah well I guess his other choice was being sent back to get more torture and mutilations from the GRU and then murdered. He survived the war, got his rewards from Stalin and actually outlived him for 15 years. Dude was kind of cold hearted, when discussing his own troops casualties with other officers, he used to say "how many matches did you burn today?". But I guess you had to be pretty hard to fight on the Eastern Front.
Basically anyone else in power would have made a better choice at the start of WWII because Stalin refused to listen to the numerous people telling him the Germans were about to invade; and presumably no-one else would have killed so many competent officers. After that initial dismal start, Stalin's war leadership was quite reasonable, because he put ideology aside and let merit determine who lead the armies.
No idea about Trotsky but Lenin was a murderous cocksucker, just not as bad as Stalin. I guess any other leader probably wouldn't have wiped out as many people, so Russia would be a better place today.
Basically anyone else in power would have made a better choice at the start of WWII because Stalin refused to listen to the numerous people telling him the Germans were about to invade; and presumably no-one else would have killed so many competent officers. After that initial dismal start, Stalin's war leadership was quite reasonable, because he put ideology aside and let merit determine who lead the armies.
No idea about Trotsky but Lenin was a murderous cocksucker, just not as bad as Stalin. I guess any other leader probably wouldn't have wiped out as many people, so Russia would be a better place today.
Ironically, and as you probably know - Hitler did the exact opposite of what Stalin did. Hitler benefited immensely by not wacking a majority of his experienced military leadership the way that Stalin did. However, where as Stalin put ideology aside and opted for practicality in who should be in charge of the U.S.S.R. military charge upon Barbarossa initially wrecking them, Hitler decided he was a military genius and opted to take ultimate command of the Wehrmacht himself. So while Stalin got his chit together after an initial terrible start to the war, Hitler double fuked himself by deciding the solution was to be a total loon with his military leadership from that point on.
10-26-2020, 12:39 AM
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#18
Originally Posted By dabbmw2002⏩
What I remember is that Trotsky thought the revolution needed to be global.One of the big splits between Trotsky and Stalin, was the idea of State socialism.In Trotsky viewpoint, true Socialism couldn't exist in a State form where it would have to interact with Capitalism abroad. He initially envisioned that Russia would be the first of many dominos to fall, followed by Germany, Italy, and later England.
Who was right? Neither. There would be no global revolution for Trotsky, and Stalin never implemented Socialism, but rather bureaucratization.
Who was right? Neither. There would be no global revolution for Trotsky, and Stalin never implemented Socialism, but rather bureaucratization.
Stalin, when it came down to it, thought the revolution had to become a success within the boundaries of the Soviet Union - which although did consist of many countries, was not in any remote sense 'global.'
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10-26-2020, 12:43 AM
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#19
Originally Posted By northernlights7⏩
A lot of Hitler’s military successes are owed to old Prussian tactics, strategies and philosophies as well. Particularly the work of Helmuth von Moltke and the philosophy of mission command, which is essentially to specify an end goal but to let those on the ground figure out the best way of achieving it. He had that infrastructure in place but eventually became too full of himself as you alluded to and it doomed him.All correct. Not many people know that much about WW2, just the bs we're fed in public high schools/basic college history courses. Which always dumb it down drastically, and sometimes even outright lie about things.
Ironically, and as you probably know - Hitler did the exact opposite of what Stalin did. Hitler benefited immensely by not wacking a majority of his experienced military leadership the way that Stalin did. However, where as Stalin put ideology aside and opted for practicality in who should be in charge of the U.S.S.R. military charge upon Barbarossa initially wrecking them, Hitler decided he was a military genius and opted to take ultimate command of the Wehrmacht himself. So while Stalin got his chit together after an initial terrible start to the war, Hitler double fuked himself by deciding the solution was to be a total loon with his military leadership from that point on.
Ironically, and as you probably know - Hitler did the exact opposite of what Stalin did. Hitler benefited immensely by not wacking a majority of his experienced military leadership the way that Stalin did. However, where as Stalin put ideology aside and opted for practicality in who should be in charge of the U.S.S.R. military charge upon Barbarossa initially wrecking them, Hitler decided he was a military genius and opted to take ultimate command of the Wehrmacht himself. So while Stalin got his chit together after an initial terrible start to the war, Hitler double fuked himself by deciding the solution was to be a total loon with his military leadership from that point on.
10-26-2020, 12:44 AM
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#20
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If Germans won today everyone would be talking about Soviet-Allied criminals.
I'm not saying Nazis weren't evil but Allies and their buttbuddy communists weren't any better.
My Grandma (she is German) told me that her father used to lock all females in the attic, destroy the door and build a wall instead so that when FFL Africans or Russians came they wouldn't find any children to rape.
I'm not saying Nazis weren't evil but Allies and their buttbuddy communists weren't any better.
My Grandma (she is German) told me that her father used to lock all females in the attic, destroy the door and build a wall instead so that when FFL Africans or Russians came they wouldn't find any children to rape.
Originally Posted By OlHoss⏩
Von Bismarck is the truest German hero I could think of. Not Hitler, not Wilhem II or any of these Ally/ communist asslicking presidents that came after.A lot of Hitler’s military successes are owed to old Prussian tactics, strategies and philosophies as well. Particularly the work of Helmuth von Moltke and the philosophy of mission command. He had that infrastructure in place but eventually became too full of himself as you alluded to and it doomed him
10-26-2020, 12:54 AM
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#21
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Originally Posted By BrosefMengele⏩
Rommel is a war hero. Bismark united millions of German princes, ended the infighting and united Germany into a single state.But who was Rommel
10-26-2020, 12:55 AM
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#22
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10-26-2020, 01:03 AM
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#23
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Originally Posted By dabbmw2002⏩
Part of it was ideological (OlHoss did a good job of laying it out), but a lot of it was personal and driven by ambition.I agree that Lenin was cold blooded. What I find curious, is the split between Trotsky and Stalin. Trotsky was obviously by his literature and his assassination a huge critic of Stalin, yet Trotsky deified Lenin. Who was closer to their master, Stalin or Trotsky?
The one one common theme in the writing of Marxists, is the accusation that other Marxists aren't true Marxists. Lenin, Trotsky and Stalin spent so much time attacking others for bastardizing Marx, or accusing others of opportunism or chauvinism. At the end of the day, regardless of how you interpret Marx, or build on his works like Lenin or Trotsky, the philosophy is poison.
The one one common theme in the writing of Marxists, is the accusation that other Marxists aren't true Marxists. Lenin, Trotsky and Stalin spent so much time attacking others for bastardizing Marx, or accusing others of opportunism or chauvinism. At the end of the day, regardless of how you interpret Marx, or build on his works like Lenin or Trotsky, the philosophy is poison.
Trotsky was an All-Pro dickwad who thought he was the smartest guy in every room he was in, and treated his peers like chit. If one of them said the sea was blue, Trotsky would probably jump him by saying that Marx thought the sea was a light green. Just arrogant to the core. So he had to be the top dog, cause he didn't trust any of the other dumb fuks (other than Lenin) to run the show
Trotsky didn't like Stalin because he saw him as a mediocre file clerk with no original thoughts of his own. Even if they agreed totally on ideology, Trotsky still would never support Stalin as Lenin's successor, because he considered Stalin to be beneath him. So the ideological differences and back-and-forths about "no true Marxist" were partly him just trying to get Stalin out of the way.
Stalin, OTOH, was alotshrewder and more ambitious that he publicly let on. He was gunning for the top spot too, and figured correctly that A. Trotsky was the odds-on favorite to succeed Lenin, and B. Trotsky was a guy with no real allies besides Lenin and could be easily out-maneuvered/cut off once the OG was gone.
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10-26-2020, 01:14 AM
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#24
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10-26-2020, 01:24 AM
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#25
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Originally Posted By dabbmw2002⏩
I don't think Stalin was ever very intelligent, I think he was just paranoid and controlling enough to play a long game that his opponents didn't see coming.I agree for the most part, but I think based on reading both of them that there was substantial ideological differences and Trotsky was certainly intellectually superior. Stalin's writing weren't particularly unique and he was really just regurgitating basic Marxist thought. Trotsky's writing are much more intellectual and analytical.
As far as Trotsky's later writing in exile, he had the benefit of living in theory and it's always easy to critique and pick apart people from afar. I do agree that Trotsky certainly thought himself the intellectual superior of Stalin and his arrogance allowed him to be out maneuvered by Stalin.
As far as Trotsky's later writing in exile, he had the benefit of living in theory and it's always easy to critique and pick apart people from afar. I do agree that Trotsky certainly thought himself the intellectual superior of Stalin and his arrogance allowed him to be out maneuvered by Stalin.
It's like what OP was saying about Stalin mass-executing his generals in the late 30s. That's not a move a smart guy makes with sabers rattling all around the world, that's a ruthless power play.
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10-26-2020, 01:31 AM
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10-26-2020, 03:31 AM
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#27
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