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A lot of disinformation on covid on here
01-04-2021, 09:39 AM
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#361
Originally Posted By TypeNirvash⏩
And this is why I straight up ignore people who believe that the response is not political.Cases in Travis county have increased. But most things here are still open.
I don't think places should shut down indefinitely. This has gone on too long, IMO and I'm not about to watch small business go under while corporations get bailed out... Again.
I don't think places should shut down indefinitely. This has gone on too long, IMO and I'm not about to watch small business go under while corporations get bailed out... Again.
If anyone can explain to me how hundreds of people in a Wal-Mart are less likely to spread the virus than under a dozen in a local small store, I would be all ears - except no one can, so don't even try.
01-04-2021, 09:45 AM
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#362
Originally Posted By Anachron⏩
They left walmart open because for a lot of cases, it's the best possible way we have to distribute food. Walmart can all also serve more. It sucks, but honestly, would you rather see walmart and costco closed too? Ideally, we would just close all this chit and have the govt distribute food. But that isn't happening here because our govt never planned for something like this.And this is why I straight up ignore people who believe that the response is not political.
If anyone can explain to me how hundreds of people in a Wal-Mart are less likely to spread the virus than under a dozen in a local small store, I would be all ears - except no one can, so don't even try.
If anyone can explain to me how hundreds of people in a Wal-Mart are less likely to spread the virus than under a dozen in a local small store, I would be all ears - except no one can, so don't even try.
Like if I were in this situation, I'd have used the government to temporarily take over Amazon and Walmart, and used their resources to distribute 2 weeks of food to everyone who was quarantined. I'd have had quarantines at the city or neighborhood level before it got completely out of control. It would have basically been a mix of South Korea and China's approach. But hindsight is 2020, and it would never fly in our country anyway. We also never had the testing and contact tracing in place to make that a reality. Where we are at now, closing Costco and Walmart would probably do more harm than good, and lead to extreme food security problems for a huge chunk of the country. (We're already at 1 in 6 have food security issues and that is WITH those companies open.)
Many major retailers had adopted head count policies, mask requirements, and distance guidelines to keep things safer in March. For w/e reason, perhaps due to fatigue, people have relaxed a lot of these practices, and it has not been good for our country.
01-04-2021, 09:46 AM
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#363
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Originally Posted By Anachron⏩
I agree this is indicative of a problem.And this is why I straight up ignore people who believe that the response is not political.
If anyone can explain to me how hundreds of people in a Wal-Mart are less likely to spread the virus than under a dozen in a local small store, I would be all ears - except no one can, so don't even try.
If anyone can explain to me how hundreds of people in a Wal-Mart are less likely to spread the virus than under a dozen in a local small store, I would be all ears - except no one can, so don't even try.
Just to see if our thoughts line up here... What does that say to you?
01-04-2021, 09:48 AM
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#364
Originally Posted By wincel⏩
Just as I expected, you can't show me a study that shows that you are less likely to contract Covid19 while you are buying a TV at Wal-Mart, than if you'd be buying gardening supplies at the local outdoor gardening center.They left walmart open because for a lot of cases, it's the best possible way we have to distribute food. Walmart can all also serve more. It sucks, but honestly, would you rather see walmart and costco closed too? Ideally, we would just close all this chit and have the govt distribute food. But that isn't happening here because our govt never planned for something like this.
Like if I were in this situation, I'd have used the government to temporarily take over Amazon and Walmart, and used their resources to distribute 2 weeks of food to everyone who was quarantined. I'd have had quarantines at the city or neighborhood level before it got completely out of control. It would have basically been a mix of South Korea and China's approach. But hindsight is 2020, and it would never fly in our country anyway. Where we are at now, closing Costco and Walmart would probably do more harm than good, and lead to extreme food security problems for a huge chunk of the country. (We're already at 1 in 6 have food security issues and that is WITH those companies open.)
Like if I were in this situation, I'd have used the government to temporarily take over Amazon and Walmart, and used their resources to distribute 2 weeks of food to everyone who was quarantined. I'd have had quarantines at the city or neighborhood level before it got completely out of control. It would have basically been a mix of South Korea and China's approach. But hindsight is 2020, and it would never fly in our country anyway. Where we are at now, closing Costco and Walmart would probably do more harm than good, and lead to extreme food security problems for a huge chunk of the country. (We're already at 1 in 6 have food security issues and that is WITH those companies open.)
01-04-2021, 09:48 AM
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#365
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wincel, what do you make of this?
The effectiveness of individual NPIs is heavily influenced by governance (Supplementary Information) and local context, as evidenced by the results of the entropic approach. This local context includes the stage of the epidemic, socio-economic, cultural and political characteristics and other NPIs previously implemented. The fact that gross domestic product is overall positively correlated with NPI effectiveness whereas the governance indicator ‘voice and accountability’ is negatively correlated might be related to the successful mitigation of the initial phase of the epidemic of certain south-east Asian and Middle East countries showing authoritarian tendencies. Indeed, some south-east Asian government strategies heavily relied on the use of personal data and police sanctions whereas the Middle East countries included in our analysis reported low numbers of cases in March–April 2020
Previous statistical studies on the effectiveness of lockdowns came to mixed conclusions. Whereas a relative reduction in Rt of 5% was estimated using a Bayesian hierarchical model19, a Bayesian mechanistic model estimated a reduction of 80% (ref. 20), although some questions have been raised regarding the latter work because of biases that overemphasize the importance of the most recent measure that had been implemented24. The susceptibility of other modelling approaches to biases resulting from the temporal sequence of NPI implementations remains to be explored. Our work tries to avoid such biases by combining multiple modelling approaches and points to a mild impact of lockdowns due to an overlap with effects of other measures adopted earlier and included in what is referred to as ‘national (or full) lockdown’. Indeed, the national lockdown encompasses multiple NPIs (for example, closure of land, sea and air borders, closure of schools, non-essential shops and prohibition of gatherings and visiting nursing homes) that countries may have already adopted in parts. From this perspective, the relatively attenuated impact of the national lockdown is explained as the little delta after other concurrent NPIs have been adopted. This conclusion does not rule out the effectiveness of an early national lockdown, but suggests that a suitable combination (sequence and time of implementation) of a smaller package of such measures can substitute for a full lockdown in terms of effectiveness, while reducing adverse impacts on society, the economy, the humanitarian response system and the environment6,39,40,41.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41562-020-01009-0Previous statistical studies on the effectiveness of lockdowns came to mixed conclusions. Whereas a relative reduction in Rt of 5% was estimated using a Bayesian hierarchical model19, a Bayesian mechanistic model estimated a reduction of 80% (ref. 20), although some questions have been raised regarding the latter work because of biases that overemphasize the importance of the most recent measure that had been implemented24. The susceptibility of other modelling approaches to biases resulting from the temporal sequence of NPI implementations remains to be explored. Our work tries to avoid such biases by combining multiple modelling approaches and points to a mild impact of lockdowns due to an overlap with effects of other measures adopted earlier and included in what is referred to as ‘national (or full) lockdown’. Indeed, the national lockdown encompasses multiple NPIs (for example, closure of land, sea and air borders, closure of schools, non-essential shops and prohibition of gatherings and visiting nursing homes) that countries may have already adopted in parts. From this perspective, the relatively attenuated impact of the national lockdown is explained as the little delta after other concurrent NPIs have been adopted. This conclusion does not rule out the effectiveness of an early national lockdown, but suggests that a suitable combination (sequence and time of implementation) of a smaller package of such measures can substitute for a full lockdown in terms of effectiveness, while reducing adverse impacts on society, the economy, the humanitarian response system and the environment6,39,40,41.
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01-04-2021, 09:49 AM
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#366
Originally Posted By Anachron⏩
It may well be that Walmart's lobby arranged for this too, man. I mean we can't really discount Walmart's influence on our government either.Just as I expected, you can't show me a study that shows that you are less likely to contract Covid19 while you are buying a TV at Wal-Mart, than if you'd be buying gardening supplies at the local gardening center.
01-04-2021, 09:50 AM
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#367
Originally Posted By wincel⏩
So do you care to revisit your answer to my question?It may well be that Walmart's lobby arranged for this too, man. I mean we can't really discount Walmart's influence on our government either.
Do you still believe that the "response to the pandemic" is not political?
01-04-2021, 09:53 AM
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#368
Originally Posted By atgbrahsrs⏩
It makes sense. It doesn't have to be all or nothing. Taiwan's VP, who is an epidemiologist, has said that basically if you are at a phase where you are needing to locking down, you already fuked up. Smart contact tracing and testing can preempt ever needing any kind of large scale quarantine measures. But we didn't have that in place. Lockdowns do seem to require a very authoritarian response to even remotely work. But it's important to realize the US hasn't actually had a real large scale lockdown. You are still free to go out and do things. A lot of places did remain open, just with a few restrictions. And yet, even those few restrictions generated so much rage from the American people. It is really a sad thing.We are stuck now between a rock and a hard place. And we were even fortune enough to get this vaccine, but it still feels like a lot won't take it. It really feels like we keep taking 1 step forward and 2 steps back.
01-04-2021, 09:56 AM
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#369
Originally Posted By Anachron⏩
Yeah because whether walmart is open or not has absolutely dick to do with what our medical community is recommending and what the cdc has said to do. It also has absolutely dick to do with the vaccine and any of the scientific evidence I have posted about the nature of the virus.So do you care to revisit your answer to my question?
Do you still believe that the "response to the pandemic" is not political?
Do you still believe that the "response to the pandemic" is not political?
I also think you haven't considered the economic reality of shutting down Walmart. If you did that, you'd probably actually be in a situation where the cure would be worse than the disease.
01-04-2021, 10:00 AM
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#370
Originally Posted By wincel⏩
So the local stores in areas that the government shut down are closed because of the "response to the pandemic"?Yeah because whether walmart is open or not has absolutely dick to do with what our medical community is recommending and what the cdc has said to do. It also has absolutely dick to do with the vaccine and any of the scientific evidence I have posted about the nature of the virus.
What you are now saying is that the governments of areas affected by current lockdowns decided to just force everyone to shutter for no reason at all.
01-04-2021, 10:03 AM
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#371
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^Anachron, just to confirm what are your thoughts about Wal Mart being allowed to operate when small businesses can't?
01-04-2021, 10:04 AM
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#372
01-04-2021, 10:04 AM
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#373
Originally Posted By Anachron⏩
No. I'm not saying that. This is turning into a political debate. You can make another thread. Anyway, I'll just close by saying that Walmart has a massive distribution network and employs an enormous number of people. For many cities, Walmart is their primary distribution center for food. I'm sure economists at the CDC looked at this and probably concluding shutting down Walmart would actually do more harm than good. OR Walmart's lobby influenced the government. But I'd venture to guess that it is because local stores do not employ millions and feed entire cities the way Walmart does. Anyway, frankly, it isn't relevant to the other stuff I posted.So the local stores in areas that the government shut down are closed because of the "response to the pandemic"?
What you are now saying is that the governments of areas affected by current lockdowns decided to just force everyone to shutter for no reason at all.
What you are now saying is that the governments of areas affected by current lockdowns decided to just force everyone to shutter for no reason at all.
I'll also remind everyone Walmart has long been strongly allied with the GOP.
01-04-2021, 10:07 AM
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#374
Originally Posted By wincel⏩
A simple yes or no answer would suffice. Keep up the pseudo-intellectual shill act you got going on - I can see right through it, but maybe other people can't.No. I'm not saying that. This is turning into a political debate. You can make another thread. Anyway, I'll just close by saying that Walmart has a massive distribution network and employs an enormous number of people. For many cities, Walmart is their primary distribution center for food. I'm sure economists at the CDC looked at this and probably concluding shutting down Walmart would actually do more harm than good. OR Walmart's lobby influenced the government. But I'd venture to guess that it is because local stores do not employ millions and feed entire cities the way Walmart does. Anyway, frankly, it isn't relevant to the other stuff I posted.
I'll also remind everyone Walmart has long been strongly allied with the GOP.
I'll also remind everyone Walmart has long been strongly allied with the GOP.
01-04-2021, 10:07 AM
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#375
Originally Posted By Anachron⏩
Which do you think is more likely? That this is all a giant conspiracy orchestrated by Amazon and Walmart to screw the little guy, and that our entire medical community is in on itAsset redistribution.
OR
that there really is this pandemic and a lot of people are dying and our government has tried to make restrictions as painless as possible (resulting in large firms continuing to remain open to minimize economic damage)?
Do you think everyone is secretly working with Walmart on this? Come on.
01-04-2021, 10:08 AM
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#376
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Originally Posted By Anachron⏩
Asset redistribution.
so basically it's a pay 2 play situation. Where Wal Mart has an unfair advantage over small businesses specifically because they are paying into politician's pockets.Essentially, we need to evaluate how our political system is working in conjunction with the economy because... As always, it's the working class who is getting an incredible dicking.
And as always it's the working class fighting against the working class over the scraps that the government is willing to throw them. And let's be fair, if you're asking a company to shut down it should be compensated. Small businesses should get the bailouts.
01-04-2021, 10:08 AM
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#377
Originally Posted By Anachron⏩
No is the answer to your question, you fuking dick. Seriously Bozz there's a reason you lost mod. Get over yourself. You really aren't as smart as you think you are.A simple yes or no answer would suffice. Keep up the pseudo-intellectual shill act you got going on - I can see right through it, but maybe other people can't.
01-04-2021, 10:09 AM
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#378
Originally Posted By wincel⏩
As I said, keep up the pseudo-intellectual shill act you got going on.Which do you think is more likely? That this is all a giant conspiracy orchestrated by Amazon and Walmart to screw the little guy, and that our entire medical community is in on it
OR
that there really is this pandemic and a lot of people are dying and our government has tried to make restrictions as painless as possible (resulting in large firms continuing to remain open to minimize economic damage)
Do you think everyone is secretly working with Walmart on this? Come on.
OR
that there really is this pandemic and a lot of people are dying and our government has tried to make restrictions as painless as possible (resulting in large firms continuing to remain open to minimize economic damage)
Do you think everyone is secretly working with Walmart on this? Come on.
It's not or the other, and if you were as smart as you pretend to be, that would not be a hard concept to grasp.
01-04-2021, 10:10 AM
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#379
Originally Posted By TypeNirvash⏩so basically it's a pay 2 play situation. Where Wal Mart has an unfair advantage over small businesses specifically because they are paying into politician's pockets.
Essentially, we need to evaluate how our political system is working in conjunction with the economy because... As always, it's the working class who is getting an incredible dicking.
And as always it's the working class fighting against the working class over the scraps that the government is willing to throw them. And let's be fair, if you're asking a company to shut down it should be compensated.
While I do agree that it is fuked up and these firms have disproportionate influence on the govt, I really don't think Walmart orchestrated this. I think we were forced to leave them open. I think the consequence of closing Walmart would plunge a lot of people into food insecurity.so basically it's a pay 2 play situation. Where Wal Mart has an unfair advantage over small businesses specifically because they are paying into politician's pockets.Essentially, we need to evaluate how our political system is working in conjunction with the economy because... As always, it's the working class who is getting an incredible dicking.
And as always it's the working class fighting against the working class over the scraps that the government is willing to throw them. And let's be fair, if you're asking a company to shut down it should be compensated.
01-04-2021, 10:11 AM
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#380
Originally Posted By Anachron⏩
I asked which you thought was more likely of the two.As I said, keep up the pseudo-intellectual shill act you got going on.
It's not or the other, and if you were as smart as you pretend to be, that would not be a hard concept to grasp.
It's not or the other, and if you were as smart as you pretend to be, that would not be a hard concept to grasp.
A simple answer would suffice.
And yeah your entire argument is that the reason Walmart is open is that they somehow influenced the policymakers. You are alleging a conspiracy here.
01-04-2021, 10:12 AM
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#381
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Originally Posted By Anachron⏩
@Wincel: As an aside and re: your conversation with Anachron and how it ties into your response to my earlier post... To be fair, I do think that lobbyists have infiltrated the government. I don't think it's a conspiracy to say that wealthy people certainly have the power to play outside the rules that small businesses have to follow.As I said, keep up the pseudo-intellectual shill act you got going on.
It's not or the other, and if you were as smart as you pretend to be, that would not be a hard concept to grasp.
It's not or the other, and if you were as smart as you pretend to be, that would not be a hard concept to grasp.
However, I don't think that this was orchestrated by the medical community/WalMart/whoever and was instead a result of opportunistic individuals/corporations who have the ability to take advantage of these situations in a way that the average citizen cannot.
Basically, what happened was a situation occured in which those in a position to take advantage of it decided to do so. It was not orchestrated.
01-04-2021, 10:12 AM
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#382
Originally Posted By wincel⏩
Thanks for conceding the argument. Better luck next time.No is the answer to your question, you fuking dick. Seriously Bozz there's a reason you lost mod. Get over yourself. You really aren't as smart as you think you are.
01-04-2021, 10:14 AM
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#383
Originally Posted By TypeNirvash⏩
I don't even know if it is that. It could be, but I think the reality is that Walmart is just ridiculously important to the US economy and the food supply of Americans. They probably did a cost/benefit analysis and concluded they just couldn't close it. I wouldn't be surprised at all. In fact, if it were a political scheme of influence, it would get snuffed pretty fast. Everyone would see it for what it was and call them on it.To be fair, I do think that lobbyists have infiltrated the government. I don't think it's a conspiracy to say that wealthy people certainly have the power to play outside the rules that small businesses have to follow.
However, I don't think that this was orchestrated by the medical community and was instead a result of opportunistic individuals/corporations who have the ability to take advantage of these situations in a way that the average citizen cannot.
However, I don't think that this was orchestrated by the medical community and was instead a result of opportunistic individuals/corporations who have the ability to take advantage of these situations in a way that the average citizen cannot.
01-04-2021, 10:15 AM
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#384
Originally Posted By TypeNirvash⏩
That is what we have a government in place for. No one in their right mind is saying that it was orchestrated by the medical community - that is just a "reeeee" retort by the likes of wincel. But to flat out claim that there aren't people taking advantage of the situation is ludicrous - and in a lot of cases the government is in on it.To be fair, I do think that lobbyists have infiltrated the government. I don't think it's a conspiracy to say that wealthy people certainly have the power to play outside the rules that small businesses have to follow.
However, I don't think that this was orchestrated by the medical community and was instead a result of opportunistic individuals/corporations who have the ability to take advantage of these situations in a way that the average citizen cannot.
However, I don't think that this was orchestrated by the medical community and was instead a result of opportunistic individuals/corporations who have the ability to take advantage of these situations in a way that the average citizen cannot.
Edit : I mean, just look at the post above. Wincel seems to think that buying a big screen TV is somehow "essential", but buying gardening supplies to literally grow your own food, is not.
01-04-2021, 10:16 AM
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#385
Originally Posted By Anachron⏩
I didn't concede anything. I said I haven't changed my view at all. You have changed nothing. The answer "no" was to your straw man of what I said. I gave reasons why I think Walmart stayed open. I think it's pretty obvious to anyone who looks at the situation.Thanks for conceding the argument. Better luck next time.
There's a reason I ignore you, and IDK why I engaged you again.
01-04-2021, 10:17 AM
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#386
Originally Posted By wincel⏩
Once you start lashing out and calling people names, that's when you know you lost.I didn't concede anything. I said I haven't changed my view at all. You have changed nothing. The answer "no" was to your straw man of what I said. I gave reasons why I think Walmart stayed open. I think it's pretty obvious to anyone who looks at the situation.
There's a reason I ignore you, and IDK why I engaged you again.
There's a reason I ignore you, and IDK why I engaged you again.
01-04-2021, 10:17 AM
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#387
Originally Posted By Anachron⏩
I never said there weren't people taking advantage either. This is incredible how you do this. And I never said I thought that either. I said walmart remaining open might have made economic sense because of their importance to the US food supply, which is an entirely reasonable point of view.That is what we have a government in place for. No one in their right mind is saying that it was orchestrated by the medical community - that is just a "reeeee" retort by the likes of wincel. But to flat out claim that there aren't people taking advantage of the situation is ludicrous - and in a lot of cases the government is in on it.
Edit : I mean, just look at the post above. Wincel seems to think that buying a big screen TV is somehow "essential", but buying gardening supplies to literally grow your own food, is not.
Edit : I mean, just look at the post above. Wincel seems to think that buying a big screen TV is somehow "essential", but buying gardening supplies to literally grow your own food, is not.
01-04-2021, 10:18 AM
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#388
Originally Posted By wincel⏩
Please recognize when you lost and have the self-respect to admit it.I never said there weren't people taking advantage either. This is incredible how you do this. And I never said I thought that either. I said walmart remaining open might have made economic sense because of their importance to the US food supply, which is an entirely reasonable point of view.
01-04-2021, 10:18 AM
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#389
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Originally Posted By wincel⏩
Well, that's the point brother. The government is aware of the type of precedent that must set, right? It's the end result of a hyper-capitalist society.I don't even know if it is that. It could be, but I think the reality is that Walmart is just ridiculously important to the US economy and the food supply of Americans. They probably did a cost/benefit analysis and concluded they just couldn't close it. I wouldn't be surprised at all. In fact, if it were a political scheme of influence, it would get snuffed pretty fast. Everyone would see it for what it was and call them on it.
The government did a cost analysis and realized that Wal Mart could stay open but small business couldn't. Basically, it's okay for the small businesses to fail collectively, but not Wal Mart.
So if that was a collective decision that was made, you can see why that's a bit disastrous in it's own implication.
Originally Posted By Anachron⏩
I'm in agreement here, but I don't think Wincel is dumb for not immediately coming to this conclusion.That is what we have a government in place for. No one in their right mind is saying that it was orchestrated by the medical community - that is just a "reeeee" retort by the likes of wincel. But to flat out claim that there aren't people taking advantage of the situation is ludicrous - and in a lot of cases the government is in on it.
I'm extremely pro-working class because I watch regularly as they get dicked down like red headed step children and then turned against each other.
01-04-2021, 10:20 AM
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#390
Originally Posted By TypeNirvash⏩
For someone who is apparently smarter than everyone else to expose the "disinformation on Covid19", he really didn't do his homework then, did he?I'm in agreement here, but I don't think Wincel is dumb for not immediately coming to this conclusion.
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