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Forum » Should any country ensure 0.0% unemployment before handing out a single visa?
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Thread: Should any country ensure 0.0% unemployment before handing out a single visa?

post 1629451513 01-23-2021, 11:53 AM
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Should any country ensure 0.0% unemployment before handing out a single visa?

Title.

Yes or no? Why?
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post 1629451873 01-23-2021, 11:57 AM
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No... would you rather take the hard-working immigrant who will be a law-abiding, tax-paying citizen or a lazy, junkie criminal who just happens to be born here?
post 1629451983 01-23-2021, 11:59 AM
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no, not necessarily. the unemployed might not have the skills necessary to fill jobs in a certain skilled industry.

the government SHOULD fix schools and improve education/training quality for citizens though so you don't need to import as many skilled workers, for sure.

but realistically the US government at least would rather use immigrants than improve education simply because they can and it's cheaper/easier. they'd rather spend trillions of dollars on some middle east BS war over improving education quality for citizens.
post 1629452163 01-23-2021, 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted By basedcap⏩
No... would you rather take the hard-working immigrant who will be a law-abiding, tax-paying citizen or a lazy, junkie criminal who just happens to be born here?
Sure. I see the point. Also, a lot of them can't fill the high skill labour sought out by visa people.


But then again, you can make the argument that widespread poverty / other problems have caused someone to become a junkie and the state should help them ensure jobs to lift them out of it.


P.S I am an immigrant to a country, not some anti-immigrant at all costs guy type of guy but I am just curious.
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post 1629452483 01-23-2021, 12:03 PM
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Originally Posted By BrianDaMan⏩
the government SHOULD fix schools and improve education/training quality though so you don't need to import as many skilled workers, for sure.
Would you say that would eliminate the whole immigrant pool?

If that worked why wouldn't they do it if it is a no brainer? Also, Western EU/USA education system is not subpar at all. Countries from the Anglosphere and wider Western Europe are home to the best universities in the world. Not sure what is there for improvement. Can you specify?

Would improving education quality stop lazy people though. What about people who are simply thick?
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post 1629452603 01-23-2021, 12:05 PM
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absolutes get you into trouble but agree with the principle. for example with unemployment high right now we should put a temp hold on all immigration. maybe when it gets to 2% allow a small amount of highly vetted that can prove they can afford it and are employable
post 1629452633 01-23-2021, 12:06 PM
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the unemployable should be forced to dig their own mass graves

srs
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post 1629452933 01-23-2021, 12:09 PM
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There's a certain amount of unemployment at any given time. That's people making job changes by choice. This is somewhere between 3-4.5% unemployment.

It's impossible to have 0% unemployment, however, what makes no sense is to import labor while you have people being paid not to work (welfare), or being forced to be unable to work (economic shutdowns).

Importing immigrants (especially low/no-skill labor) drives wages down. Janitors don't get paid well because you can hire an illegal for cents on the dollar to do the work.
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post 1629453213 01-23-2021, 12:11 PM
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Id rather go back to the 50s & 60s UK style immigration.

Start migration drives in 3rd world countries when there are jobs available for the head of the households or men of age.
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post 1629453603 01-23-2021, 12:15 PM
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Some fields there is no umemployment, some there is a lot. It's usually because employers refuse to pay more especially when they can ship people in for less.
post 1629454313 01-23-2021, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted By elterrible987⏩
absolutes get you into trouble but agree with the principle. for example with unemployment high right now we should put a temp hold on all immigration. maybe when it gets to 2% allow a small amount of highly vetted that can prove they can afford it and are employable
I am talking about visas for labour. You can't
Originally Posted By Ratfish⏩
the unemployable should be forced to dig their own mass graves

srs
What if he is unemployed because to manny immis drive the wages down?
Originally Posted By Ikeman83⏩
Importing immigrants (especially low/no-skill labor) drives wages down. Janitors don't get paid well because you can hire an illegal for cents on the dollar to do the work.
That's fair. But how does the import of high-end labour not drive wages down on that regard too? Even if it doesn't affect the native high skilled ones to the extent of the low class it still does.
Originally Posted By Jasonw1178⏩
Some fields there is no unemployment, some there is a lot. It's usually because employers refuse to pay more especially when they can ship people in for less.
Should that mechanism be banned in your view?

Isn't it true for all fields regardless of employability that wages go down hence why 0 on immigration might be best?
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post 1629455073 01-23-2021, 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted By atgbrahsrs⏩
That's fair. But how does the import of high-end labour not drive wages down on that regard too? Even if it doesn't affect the native high skilled ones to the extent of the low class it still does.
Generally because even with the presence of a foreign supply, skilled laborers of that particular field are still far and few between.

Take nursing for example. It is a high paying job in the US despite the fact that a significant number of nurses in the US today are from other countries. So in this instance, the issue isn't low wages, but a deficit in Americans going into Nursing school.

In fact, it is expected that there is going to be a shortage of nurses until 2022. How do you propose the US fix this problem, even more so if it were to curtail immigration?
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post 1629456243 01-23-2021, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted By jaimeruiz99⏩
Take nursing for example. It is a high paying job in the US despite the fact that a significant number of nurses in the US today are from other countries. So in this instance, the issue isn't low wages, but a deficit in Americans going into Nursing school.

In fact, it is expected that there is going to be a shortage of nurses until 2022. How do you propose the US fix this problem, even more so if it were to curtail immigration?
Fair points. I am just having this convo out of curiosity.

Would you say this is true for another field that has heavy imports, such as Tech/Comp Sci?

Wouldn't a nurse enjoy the fact that different hospitals might compete for having them? And thus increase their wage?
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post 1629456703 01-23-2021, 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted By atgbrahsrs⏩
What if he is unemployed because to manny immis drive the wages down?
compel the immis to dig the mass graves larger and then kneel on the edge of them next to the unemployable
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post 1629459373 01-23-2021, 01:21 PM
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Originally Posted By atgbrahsrs⏩
Fair points. I am just having this convo out of curiosity.

Would you say this is true for another field that has heavy imports, such as Tech/Comp Sci?

Wouldn't a nurse enjoy the fact that different hospitals might compete for having them? And thus increase their wage?
With regards to IT/Tech, well here's another facet of the issue you have not taken into account: a significant amount of labor, and not just ComSci labor, is now beingoutsourcedabroad. When I say outsourced, I mean a job that could very well be done in the US is being done by a foreigner in another country, thereby taking immigration out of the issue entirely. In fact, I would argue that the vast majority of people in the US aren't being pushed out of the workforce because of immigrants, but by people in other countries, particularly when it comes to manufacturing: look no further than the Detroit Auto crisis to see what I mean.

Oh I'm sure a Nurse would enjoy that, but would you? Imagine going to a hospital and not receiving the optimum amount of care necessary because they were understaffed? Imagine what that would do to your hospital bill and correspondingly your premiums if Nurses had a much higher salary?

From a contemporary standpoint, America's unemployment issue has almost nothing to do with immigration. It has more to do with outsourcing, which is something that eliminates the need to immigrate entirely.
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post 1629459533 01-23-2021, 01:23 PM
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post 1629459683 01-23-2021, 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted By jaimeruiz99⏩
Generally because even with the presence of a foreign supply, skilled laborers of that particular field are still far and few between.

Take nursing for example. It is a high paying job in the US despite the fact that a significant number of nurses in the US today are from other countries. So in this instance, the issue isn't low wages, but a deficit in Americans going into Nursing school.

In fact, it is expected that there is going to be a shortage of nurses until 2022. How do you propose the US fix this problem, even more so if it were to curtail immigration?
You think the qualifications of foreign nurses exceeds our own?
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post 1629459833 01-23-2021, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted By tnel00⏩
You think the qualifications of foreign nurses exceeds our own?
I didn't say that. I said less and less Americans are going into Nursing school, hence the aforementioned Nursing shortage.

In addition, Nursing school isexpensive, which is one of the reasons why fewer and fewer Americans are going into the aforementioned field.
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post 1629460033 01-23-2021, 01:30 PM
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no... cause people here are lazy lol. lack of jobs isn't the issue or cause of unemployment, in the west at least.

have you seen the threads here. like everyone agrees that doing the bare minimum is what they should do as a worker. would rather hire the foreigner who works hard to the best of his/her ability and is happy/satisfied for simply having a job, than the dude who wants to do the bare minimum.
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post 1629460073 01-23-2021, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted By jaimeruiz99⏩
Outsourcing point.

Nurse point.
Good points overall.

However, if you can address the first one without the outsourcing bit as this is not even another facet but another issue. So basically, insert anything else in the corpie world.

In the corpie world I see two streams of similar roles - visa sponsored one and home native one. There are plenty of visa ones but for the home one people compete and a lot of them get rejected. They must be unqualified because it would make sense to cut the visa stream as much as possible to give most to natives.

I just sometimes see some people saying "immigrants taking over jobs" but if they are not skilled enough for it whose fault is it? The other facet about them being an auto factory worker and the businessmen outsourcing to become even bigger millionaires at their expense is definitely something to talk about though.



Yeah, majority would want enough nurses to cater to their health needs so majority rules not the nurses getting paid 200k.
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post 1629460723 01-23-2021, 01:38 PM
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communist until you get rich
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post 1629460863 01-23-2021, 01:39 PM
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Anytime you increase supply of a good or service, you bring down "cost" in the absence of a monopoly (this is basic supply and demand).

However, in cases where demand wildly exceeds supply (see nursing, above) the effect is less noticeable because the gulf is so large.

With no/low skilled labor, the supply exceeds the demand, which is why illegal immigration in particular causes downward pressure on wages. The reason no one who is legal will do the work is because the pay isn't good enough. The pay isn't good enough because there are people who will take any work they can get because it represents a pay raise compared to working in Mexico/Guatemala/Honduras.
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post 1629461093 01-23-2021, 01:41 PM
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do you have any idea how ****ed the economy would be if you did this? such an unbelievably dumb idea...
post 1629461373 01-23-2021, 01:44 PM
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Originally Posted By Ikeman83⏩
Anytime you increase supply of a good or service, you bring down "cost" in the absence of a monopoly (this is basic supply and demand).

However, in cases where demand wildly exceeds supply (see nursing, above) the effect is less noticeable because the gulf is so large.

With no/low skilled labor, the supply exceeds the demand, which is why illegal immigration in particular causes downward pressure on wages. The reason no one who is legal will do the work is because the pay isn't good enough. The pay isn't good enough because there are people who will take any work they can get because it represents a pay raise compared to working in Mexico/Guatemala/Honduras.
yep I agree but the fact that the effect is much smaller in high skilled high demand occupations doesn't mean it is not there

the effect on low skilled (which are usually lowest on the socioeconomic totempole) is clear but can that be extended to everyone where the conclusion is that immigration is not good for anything
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post 1629463173 01-23-2021, 02:06 PM
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Originally Posted By Ikeman83⏩
There's a certain amount of unemployment at any given time. That's people making job changes by choice. This is somewhere between 3-4.5% unemployment.

It's impossible to have 0% unemployment
^^^Aka the NAIRU ( non-accelerating-inflation rate of unemployment)

OP For further information see first year econ textbook
post 1629464203 01-23-2021, 02:20 PM
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unemployment in developed countires is a decision not a byproduct of the economy

the US is a prime example of this, you will have black people and sugar babies refusing to work while field owners have a shortage of workers willing to pick up their produce, which leads to millions of illegals getting employed while still having unemployment
post 1629464453 01-23-2021, 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted By atgbrahsrs⏩
yep I agree but the fact that the effect is much smaller in high skilled high demand occupations doesn't mean it is not there

the effect on low skilled (which are usually lowest on the socioeconomic totempole) is clear but can that be extended to everyone where the conclusion is that immigration is not good for anything
Immigration can be good, or bad, or neither, or both. The nature of immigration and its value (positive, negative, etc) is a function of context. In 1850, unlimited immigration was good. The United States government had just defeated Mexico. Vast amounts of territory required settling, and there was an overabundance of land and an inadequate amount of potential settlers. The cost of immigration was 0. There was no welfare state, there were no public services that an illegal immigrant could drain upon. Illegal immigrant children didn't get paid WIC from the Federal Government.

Culturally, there were differences in heritage between Southern Europeans (Italians), Northern Europeans (Germans, Swiss, French, and English/Irish Settlers), Slavic peoples, and Catholics/Protestants, but all of these people had a single, shared, common interest, which was to make a better life for themselves and their progeny, not to go to another country and demand that that country's government PROVIDE them with a better life.

21st-Century immigrants aren't populating the United States with people who want to chart their own destiny, they're preventing American citizens from being able to do so, and that's what's sad.
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post 1629464653 01-23-2021, 02:26 PM
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Originally Posted By Ikeman83⏩
21st-Century immigrants aren't populating the United States with people who want to chart their own destiny, they're preventing American citizens from being able to do so, and that's what's sad.
how so... over here people rather go homeless than do anything. my friend in his 40's was complaining that he worked for a year straight (which is not true lol he calls in for sick days so many times cause he wants to stay home).... so he quit his job because he doesn't want to work anymore until he's out of funds and then he does it all over again
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post 1629464863 01-23-2021, 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted By 2RDEYE⏩
how so... over here people rather go homeless than do anything. my friend in his 40's was complaining that he worked for a year straight.... so he quit his job because he doesn't want to work anymore until he's out of funds and then he does it all over again
Do you think that's... typical?

Try reading through the thread.
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post 1629465303 01-23-2021, 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted By Ikeman83⏩
Do you think that's... typical?

Try reading through the thread.
well most of the thread agrees that people here don't want to work....

it is typical over here at least. i managed many different teams of people, hundreds of temps. it's always the people born here that don't want to do anything or have the ****tiest work ethic. and the refugees or immigrants that i get, they're always trying to dig their way out to better careers. the people born here in the bottom of society just go from warehouse job to warehouse job. and the immigrants end up finding better careers very fast.
There is only one Hell: the one we live in now.
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