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Well my time has come boyos. Tore my pec benching today
09-07-2021, 04:40 PM
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#31
Originally Posted By tunejunkie⏩
were you in network? and how much did you have to pay?Yo. Fellow Pec tear bro here.
Trust me when I say you can get it fixed. If the doc tells you it tore from the MT junction (meaning the muscle tore from the tendon vs the tendon off the bone) and he claims it can’t be fixed. He’s lying and isn’t experienced enough. Ded srs.
I went through this 2.5 years ago. And have done all the research. Doc told me it can’t be fixed. In fact he bet me $100 he couldn’t fix it and said that I’d have to live with the deformity and strength loss for the rest of my life.
Well researched and researched and found an 80 page forum thread about pect tears of this nature and they all recommended Dr. Stiebel out of Palm Beach Florida. The backstory is that he studied under a top doc in Boston who was leading the way in pec tears and has a special technique they use to weave the suture for ANY pec tear. Doesn’t matter how it tore.
So now he’s the leading pec doc. He can repair any full rupture even if several years old. I’m in Cali and worked with his med assistant to get the surgery set up.
Flew down there. Did the op and left 5 days later.
He is a a legend. He’s done over 200 of them. So much so that he cut a deal with the local surgery center to discounted rates if he’s out of network on your insurance and have to pay out of pocket.
Don’t let the doc bullchit you on his answer. You don’t have to live with it. You can get it fixed. I’d be happy to answer any questions you have.
Trust me when I say you can get it fixed. If the doc tells you it tore from the MT junction (meaning the muscle tore from the tendon vs the tendon off the bone) and he claims it can’t be fixed. He’s lying and isn’t experienced enough. Ded srs.
I went through this 2.5 years ago. And have done all the research. Doc told me it can’t be fixed. In fact he bet me $100 he couldn’t fix it and said that I’d have to live with the deformity and strength loss for the rest of my life.
Well researched and researched and found an 80 page forum thread about pect tears of this nature and they all recommended Dr. Stiebel out of Palm Beach Florida. The backstory is that he studied under a top doc in Boston who was leading the way in pec tears and has a special technique they use to weave the suture for ANY pec tear. Doesn’t matter how it tore.
So now he’s the leading pec doc. He can repair any full rupture even if several years old. I’m in Cali and worked with his med assistant to get the surgery set up.
Flew down there. Did the op and left 5 days later.
He is a a legend. He’s done over 200 of them. So much so that he cut a deal with the local surgery center to discounted rates if he’s out of network on your insurance and have to pay out of pocket.
Don’t let the doc bullchit you on his answer. You don’t have to live with it. You can get it fixed. I’d be happy to answer any questions you have.
I'll definitely have questions after the mri because that'l obviously determine what the next steps are
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09-07-2021, 04:43 PM
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#32
Originally Posted By x-trainer
29 and I dunno my current max. should be around 335 but my previous tested max was 305How old are you op and what was your max?
Originally Posted By NMS3⏩
actual creatine? yes. sauce? nopeYou taking creatine?
Originally Posted By keyboardworkout⏩
I can't see any damage. I can't feel damage because i don't know what to look for but the doctor today said he didCan you see or feel any damage? Pain?
Originally Posted By Jestbrah⏩
depending how the injury is and how the recovery goes, I'm definitely going to be doing flat barbell bench as my primary chest exercise anymorefirst off its most likely a minor muscle tear and you will be fine in a month
second the only thing you should get surgery for is a full rupture or detachment of a muscle/tendon, not a partial tear.
third, bench press is a chit lift. unless you compete in powerlifting dumbbells or smith incline or hammer strength stuff is better for pec development and not tearing your chest.
second the only thing you should get surgery for is a full rupture or detachment of a muscle/tendon, not a partial tear.
third, bench press is a chit lift. unless you compete in powerlifting dumbbells or smith incline or hammer strength stuff is better for pec development and not tearing your chest.
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09-07-2021, 04:45 PM
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#33
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09-07-2021, 04:50 PM
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#34
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Originally Posted By bartosh⏩
When I had it done, I was in network so luckily it was covered. So all in all it was only like $500-$1,000 all said and done. Originally I was out of network. I tore it in October and waited to get on my new insurance during open enrollment for the new year. Then had the surgery once I was on in Jan. So we are close to the end of the year so you can hold out if you need to. It sucks to wait but like I said he can fix anything so even tho it was a few months old of a tear, he said he considered it still fresh since it’s under a year old. Was a non issue for him.were you in network? and how much did you have to pay?
I'll definitely have questions after the mri because that'l obviously determine what the next steps are
I'll definitely have questions after the mri because that'l obviously determine what the next steps are
09-07-2021, 04:57 PM
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#35
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not the end of the world. Eat clean, work on your cardio (exercise bike), achieve brad pitt fight club look
09-07-2021, 04:59 PM
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#36
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Ah chit now I’m gonna be paranoid. I’m back after a two week break, and I’m not as strong as you. I’m also 33, so I’m gonna take it easy instead of going ham like I planned.
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09-07-2021, 05:16 PM
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#37
Originally Posted By tunejunkie⏩
Well that made me a lot more optimistic. So worst case scenario is I get a trip to Florida. I’ll have to look into his work but thanks for letting me know this man, I really appreciate itWhen I had it done, I was in network so luckily it was covered. So all in all it was only like $500-$1,000 all said and done. Originally I was out of network. I tore it in October and waited to get on my new insurance during open enrollment for the new year. Then had the surgery once I was on in Jan. So we are close to the end of the year so you can hold out if you need to. It sucks to wait but like I said he can fix anything so even tho it was a few months old of a tear, he said he considered it still fresh since it’s under a year old. Was a non issue for him.
Originally Posted By monster0ultra⏩
I’m fortunate that I have a sports medicine doctor as my primary practitioner and we have a great relationship built over the last few years. He’s smart and open to having discussions which all I can askMake sure your doctor is competent. Just because they went to medical school, doesn't mean that they are.
Doctors did jack chit for my injuries.
Doctors did jack chit for my injuries.
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09-07-2021, 05:22 PM
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#38
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Originally Posted By bartosh⏩
Yeah exactly. Just wait it out and then take a trip to Florida if you need to. The waiting sucked but was so worth it. He takes all kinds of insurance tho so you may be covered.Well that made me a lot more optimistic. So worst case scenario is I get a trip to Florida. I’ll have to look into his work but thanks for letting me know this man, I really appreciate it
I’m fortunate that I have a sports medicine doctor as my primary practitioner and we have a great relationship built over the last few years. He’s smart and open to having discussions which all I can ask
I’m fortunate that I have a sports medicine doctor as my primary practitioner and we have a great relationship built over the last few years. He’s smart and open to having discussions which all I can ask
We got to go check out palm beach before the surgery and then on the last few days we went out to eat at a couple places. Was nice. Otherwise we got an AirBNB and went grocery shopping the day before the surgery to stock up. Binge watched Netflix and watched NFL playoffs.
A note - the original doc I went to was the team physician for the local NHL team. He’s the one who said it couldn’t be fixed.
Have an open convo with him because you trust him, But also challenge him. Most docs have no idea about the technique that can be done with the suture. They’ll try and tell you it’s like trying to sew hamburger meat together. Because they don’t know the technique that this guy does. Pec tears are somewhat rare so not a lot of folks have a ton of experience repairing them.
What state are you in ?
09-16-2021, 01:13 AM
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#39
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Any update on your pec brah?
09-16-2021, 02:07 AM
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#40
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I tore my pec, luckily I live in the UK where I can get told it;s not fixable and get palmed off by doctors.... gotta love that free health care (that i pay a huge amount for every month).
09-16-2021, 04:31 PM
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#41
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Originally Posted By PimpinisEasy⏩
damn sorry to hear brahI tore my pec, luckily I live in the UK where I can get told it;s not fixable and get palmed off by doctors.... gotta love that free health care (that i pay a huge amount for every month).
09-16-2021, 04:34 PM
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#42
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Don't mean to hijack your thread OP, but does anyone have any tips on how to fix an uneven bench? I've mostly corrected myself, but my right arm seems to be a little off compared to my left. I'd prefer to not injure myself.
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09-16-2021, 04:39 PM
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#43
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Originally Posted By WantToBeLeaf⏩
I would go to smith, work on correct engagement again. Something isnt engaging right and it could be anywhere between your lat, delt, pec, tricep, forearm, no telling. Best to go to a stabilized movement, get the strength back in order evenly, and then move back to barbell if you wish but barbell bench is a terrible exercise.Don't mean to hijack your thread OP, but does anyone have any tips on how to fix an uneven bench? I've mostly corrected myself, but my right arm seems to be a little off compared to my left. I'd prefer to not injure myself.
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09-16-2021, 04:42 PM
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#44
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Originally Posted By WantToBeLeaf⏩
Don't use the smith machine lmaoDon't mean to hijack your thread OP, but does anyone have any tips on how to fix an uneven bench? I've mostly corrected myself, but my right arm seems to be a little off compared to my left. I'd prefer to not injure myself.
Usually uneven bench is from strength or shoulder/scapula mobility. Unilateral movements for strength, mobility work for mobility. YouTube has plenty of help regarding both, do your research and figure out what works best for you
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09-17-2021, 11:28 AM
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#45
Update: definitely a tear
MRI results back from the radiologist: "Moderate edema is present at the musculotendinous junction of the pectoralis nature. This is consistent with a moderate partial tear"
TBH I have no idea what that means and I won't know until I go over the results with my doctor on Monday. It sounds like the muscle partially tore away from the tendon?
MRI results back from the radiologist: "Moderate edema is present at the musculotendinous junction of the pectoralis nature. This is consistent with a moderate partial tear"
TBH I have no idea what that means and I won't know until I go over the results with my doctor on Monday. It sounds like the muscle partially tore away from the tendon?
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09-17-2021, 11:33 AM
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#46
09-17-2021, 11:37 AM
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#47
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starting riding the recovery bike.
09-17-2021, 11:42 AM
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#48
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Originally Posted By bartosh⏩
and sir,Title is all there really is to it.
I was on my final warmup set (225) before I got to my working sets at 275 and i felt a snap and an immediate pulling sensation in my left pec. 0 bruising which is indicative of a tendon tear, not muscle tear... which is apparently much worse.
A few hours and a doctor visit later and it's 100% a tear but they can't confirm muscle vs tendon without a MRI. MRI scheduled for tomorrow to see if i need surgery or not.
I know, I know dear diary. I'm just sad because I have a gut feeling i'll never bench heavy again if i need surgery; and i'm confident i will
edit: typical warmup
- bands to warmup shoulders/rotator cuff
- bar for 20
- 135 x8
- 185 x6
- 225 x6
working sets are 275 3x5-8 currently
I always thought that kind of warmup was more than enough but I guess the age old saying of barbell bench press = bad ended up being true for me
-------------------------
Update as of 9/17: definitely a tear
MRI results back from the radiologist today:"Moderate edema is present at the musculotendinous junction of the pectoralis nature. This is consistent with a moderate partial tear"
I have no idea what that means and I won't know until I go over the results with my doctor on Monday. It sounds like the muscle partially tore away from the tendon?
I was on my final warmup set (225) before I got to my working sets at 275 and i felt a snap and an immediate pulling sensation in my left pec. 0 bruising which is indicative of a tendon tear, not muscle tear... which is apparently much worse.
A few hours and a doctor visit later and it's 100% a tear but they can't confirm muscle vs tendon without a MRI. MRI scheduled for tomorrow to see if i need surgery or not.
I know, I know dear diary. I'm just sad because I have a gut feeling i'll never bench heavy again if i need surgery; and i'm confident i will
edit: typical warmup
- bands to warmup shoulders/rotator cuff
- bar for 20
- 135 x8
- 185 x6
- 225 x6
working sets are 275 3x5-8 currently
I always thought that kind of warmup was more than enough but I guess the age old saying of barbell bench press = bad ended up being true for me
-------------------------
Update as of 9/17: definitely a tear
MRI results back from the radiologist today:"Moderate edema is present at the musculotendinous junction of the pectoralis nature. This is consistent with a moderate partial tear"
I have no idea what that means and I won't know until I go over the results with my doctor on Monday. It sounds like the muscle partially tore away from the tendon?
this is why u don't go crazy on anastrazole
brb estrogen protects the joints
lower your estrogen too much = it's rip and tear time
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09-17-2021, 11:43 AM
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#49
Originally Posted By WantToBeLeaf⏩
Just go with dumbbells for a while, use the same weight in each hand. I had the same issue many years ago, took a couple months to straighten out, you'll be surprised how quick it goes.Don't mean to hijack your thread OP, but does anyone have any tips on how to fix an uneven bench? I've mostly corrected myself, but my right arm seems to be a little off compared to my left. I'd prefer to not injure myself.
Originally Posted By AshWar⏩
IDK, the times I've tweaked myself, it's usually not near my max. As I've gotten older, I've learned it's easy to lost focus under "light" weight. Gotta keep focus.wtf @ tearing your pec with 225 when your max is 335
GL with the recovery brah
GL with the recovery brah
09-17-2021, 11:48 AM
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#50
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I’d be devastated if this happened to me . A guy at work had a bicep tear and his arm looks like chit now .
I’m old and gave up on heavy lifting . Bench 195 for 8 and I’m happy . Gotta admits, miss 225 though , it’s like the golden ratio of benching to me.
OP, hoping you have a speedy recovery
I’m old and gave up on heavy lifting . Bench 195 for 8 and I’m happy . Gotta admits, miss 225 though , it’s like the golden ratio of benching to me.
OP, hoping you have a speedy recovery
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09-17-2021, 11:50 AM
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#51
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Originally Posted By bartosh⏩
Sadly this OP. I am sorry to hear about the injury and I wish you a speedy recovery, but when you get healthy ditch the flat bench. So many better options for chest development.I always thought that kind of warmup was more than enough but I guess the age old saying of barbell bench press = bad ended up being true for me
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09-17-2021, 01:25 PM
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#52
Originally Posted By Aircommander91⏩
what in the world are you talking aboutand sir,
this is why u don't go crazy on anastrazole
brb estrogen protects the joints
lower your estrogen too much = it's rip and tear time
this is why u don't go crazy on anastrazole
brb estrogen protects the joints
lower your estrogen too much = it's rip and tear time
Originally Posted By MajorTendonitis⏩
fortunately enough it doesn't look like trash. tbh it doesn't look any different as far as I can tell but my bf is probably around 20 currently. I'm on a slow cut to get into single digits for my wedding in March so i guess we'll see for sure what the aesthetic damage is thenI’d be devastated if this happened to me . A guy at work had a bicep tear and his arm looks like chit now .
I’m old and gave up on heavy lifting . Bench 195 for 8 and I’m happy . Gotta admits, miss 225 though , it’s like the golden ratio of benching to me.
OP, hoping you have a speedy recovery
I’m old and gave up on heavy lifting . Bench 195 for 8 and I’m happy . Gotta admits, miss 225 though , it’s like the golden ratio of benching to me.
OP, hoping you have a speedy recovery
Originally Posted By JUGGERNAUT1333⏩
Thanks man. I don't think I will anymore to be honest. It's my favorite exercise so I want to still do it with a block/reverse bands but it's just not worth it obviouslySadly this OP. I am sorry to hear about the injury and I wish you a speedy recovery, but when you get healthy ditch the flat bench. So many better options for chest development.
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09-17-2021, 01:26 PM
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#53
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09-17-2021, 01:28 PM
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#54
Originally Posted By Muzzlrpress⏩
I can't access my MRI on my profile (Kaiser). Depending on my conversation on Monday, I'm going to ask for a copy of my MRI to send to a third party for a second opinion though. I'll post it here as well if i doMS, Computer Science
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09-17-2021, 01:32 PM
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#55
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Well that sucks. Lol.
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09-17-2021, 01:40 PM
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#56
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Originally Posted By Ken-O⏩
Very weird OP. I don’t think it’s as bad as you think. Sounds like a minor tear. I’ve had a few of those and while they hurt like a bitch, I’m back to bench after 1.5 months or so.
Also you can feel them coming, or at least in my case. I don’t see how when your body was comfortably benching 275 suddenly it tore with 225 on rep 3. Seems like your pec were overloaded and needed a rest and then the micro tear happened.
Also you can feel them coming, or at least in my case. I don’t see how when your body was comfortably benching 275 suddenly it tore with 225 on rep 3. Seems like your pec were overloaded and needed a rest and then the micro tear happened.
Originally Posted By AshWar⏩
This x10000wtf @ tearing your pec with 225 when your max is 335
GL with the recovery brah
GL with the recovery brah
First thing that comes to mind here is you're not hydrated enough/aren't getting the correct minerals/electrolytes and nutrition. Tearing a pec with only 67% of your 1 rep max doesn't compute at all. Any experienced lifter will immediately notice this given the numbers it simply doesn't make sense unless you're lying about your max.
Still very sorry to hear about your injury that's awful, but if you're not lying about your numbers then you're doing something wrong because a tear with such light weight should never happen.
Consider picking up some electrolyte powder and minerals to add to your water and make sure you're drinking around a gallon of water a day if you're serious about lifting.
Lots of good info in here and I agree you can recover, start doing your research on everything including injury prevention, rehab, proper form and mobility work. If you keep at it and don't give up you'll be back to where you were and beyond. All the best with your recovery bro.
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09-17-2021, 01:43 PM
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#57
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Originally Posted By Jestbrah⏩
Precisely why I don't believe in training everything twice a week. Sounds like OP also bought the meme that muscle recovers in 72h and is ready to be trained again for maximal gains.I tore my hamstring just by not giving them enough time to recover.
Hit deadlifts, then did a posterior day 3 days later which I started with DB RDL's. Did 2 warmup sets, felt tight and just not recovered fully. Then hit a working set for 12 reps. Then hit my 2nd working set and on rep 7 there was a snap and violent contraction when I was transerring from the eccentric to the concentric. Trust me my form and tempo is pretty impeccable on these too. I just put it all on not being fully recovered.
Hit deadlifts, then did a posterior day 3 days later which I started with DB RDL's. Did 2 warmup sets, felt tight and just not recovered fully. Then hit a working set for 12 reps. Then hit my 2nd working set and on rep 7 there was a snap and violent contraction when I was transerring from the eccentric to the concentric. Trust me my form and tempo is pretty impeccable on these too. I just put it all on not being fully recovered.
In my experience its a fine line between intensity, volume and frequency. If someone lives a BBing life-style with the right amount of nutrition, sleep and supplementation its more feasible to hit everything 2x per week. But if one of those things slip, those injuries/nagging pains start to come up. IMO its just not worth it.
I hit a muscle group every 6-8 days with no issues and make consistent progress and stay healthy/injury free. I don't have to worry about not being fully recovered or any of that jazz.
I feel like now that I'm in my 30s and have been lifting for 15+ years. I've come full circle and realized a good 'bro split' is the best way to train as a lifestyle/long term plan. I tried the PPL, U/L, PHAT, PHUL, FST7 and all those other 'new and cutting edge' programs when they came out. Just didn't work for me on a long term basis.
09-17-2021, 04:36 PM
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#58
Originally Posted By dopamine72⏩
Crazier things have happened. My nutrition is pretty on point and i regularly supplement glucosamine, collagen, gelatin and a few other goodies but I'll consider adding electrolytes as well. Not sure how that would help with injury prevention off the top of my head though.This x10000
First thing that comes to mind here is you're not hydrated enough/aren't getting the correct minerals/electrolytes and nutrition. Tearing a pec with only 67% of your 1 rep max doesn't compute at all. Any experienced lifter will immediately notice this given the numbers it simply doesn't make sense unless you're lying about your max.
Still very sorry to hear about your injury that's awful, but if you're not lying about your numbers then you're doing something wrong because a tear with such light weight should never happen.
Consider picking up some electrolyte powder and minerals to add to your water and make sure you're drinking around a gallon of water a day if you're serious about lifting.
Lots of good info in here and I agree you can recover, start doing your research on everything including injury prevention, rehab, proper form and mobility work. If you keep at it and don't give up you'll be back to where you were and beyond. All the best with your recovery bro.
First thing that comes to mind here is you're not hydrated enough/aren't getting the correct minerals/electrolytes and nutrition. Tearing a pec with only 67% of your 1 rep max doesn't compute at all. Any experienced lifter will immediately notice this given the numbers it simply doesn't make sense unless you're lying about your max.
Still very sorry to hear about your injury that's awful, but if you're not lying about your numbers then you're doing something wrong because a tear with such light weight should never happen.
Consider picking up some electrolyte powder and minerals to add to your water and make sure you're drinking around a gallon of water a day if you're serious about lifting.
Lots of good info in here and I agree you can recover, start doing your research on everything including injury prevention, rehab, proper form and mobility work. If you keep at it and don't give up you'll be back to where you were and beyond. All the best with your recovery bro.
One thing the radiologist noted is that"there is fatty infiltration present. This fatty infiltration likely represents a prior older injury". I don't recall ever injuring my chest/shoulder region before but it's possible that I have and this is a re-injury of an already weakened area.
Originally Posted By guest89⏩
I typically liftPrecisely why I don't believe in training everything twice a week. Sounds like OP also bought the meme that muscle recovers in 72h and is ready to be trained again for maximal gains.
In my experience its a fine line between intensity, volume and frequency. If someone lives a BBing life-style with the right amount of nutrition, sleep and supplementation its more feasible to hit everything 2x per week. But if one of those things slip, those injuries/nagging pains start to come up. IMO its just not worth it.
I hit a muscle group every 6-8 days with no issues and make consistent progress and stay healthy/injury free. I don't have to worry about not being fully recovered or any of that jazz.
I feel like now that I'm in my 30s and have been lifting for 15+ years. I've come full circle and realized a good 'bro split' is the best way to train as a lifestyle/long term plan. I tried the PPL, U/L, PHAT, PHUL, FST7 and all those other 'new and cutting edge' programs when they came out. Just didn't work for me on a long term basis.
In my experience its a fine line between intensity, volume and frequency. If someone lives a BBing life-style with the right amount of nutrition, sleep and supplementation its more feasible to hit everything 2x per week. But if one of those things slip, those injuries/nagging pains start to come up. IMO its just not worth it.
I hit a muscle group every 6-8 days with no issues and make consistent progress and stay healthy/injury free. I don't have to worry about not being fully recovered or any of that jazz.
I feel like now that I'm in my 30s and have been lifting for 15+ years. I've come full circle and realized a good 'bro split' is the best way to train as a lifestyle/long term plan. I tried the PPL, U/L, PHAT, PHUL, FST7 and all those other 'new and cutting edge' programs when they came out. Just didn't work for me on a long term basis.
chest/triceps/front delts
back/biceps/rear relts
legs
abs/mobility
off
so do everything once every 5 or 6 days. definitely not every 3
Moving forwards I'm probably going to restructure my lifting to have a lot more mobility stuff. I rock climb a lot so I'm going to not lift on climbing days anymore.
lift 3x a week, climb 2x a week, cardio 2-3x a week, mobility/dynamic stretching 4+x a week. Assuming my chest can make a full recovery
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09-17-2021, 04:41 PM
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#59
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Originally Posted By Jestbrah⏩
Got you on spread, brah.I would go to smith, work on correct engagement again. Something isnt engaging right and it could be anywhere between your lat, delt, pec, tricep, forearm, no telling. Best to go to a stabilized movement, get the strength back in order evenly, and then move back to barbell if you wish but barbell bench is a terrible exercise.
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09-17-2021, 04:43 PM
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#60
- Ken-O
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Originally Posted By guest89⏩
Lets be honest 99% of lifters can get away with training everything 2x a week. Its not like they are training like prime Ronnie Coleman lol.Precisely why I don't believe in training everything twice a week. Sounds like OP also bought the meme that muscle recovers in 72h and is ready to be trained again for maximal gains.
In my experience its a fine line between intensity, volume and frequency. If someone lives a BBing life-style with the right amount of nutrition, sleep and supplementation its more feasible to hit everything 2x per week. But if one of those things slip, those injuries/nagging pains start to come up. IMO its just not worth it.
I hit a muscle group every 6-8 days with no issues and make consistent progress and stay healthy/injury free. I don't have to worry about not being fully recovered or any of that jazz.
I feel like now that I'm in my 30s and have been lifting for 15+ years. I've come full circle and realized a good 'bro split' is the best way to train as a lifestyle/long term plan. I tried the PPL, U/L, PHAT, PHUL, FST7 and all those other 'new and cutting edge' programs when they came out. Just didn't work for me on a long term basis.
In my experience its a fine line between intensity, volume and frequency. If someone lives a BBing life-style with the right amount of nutrition, sleep and supplementation its more feasible to hit everything 2x per week. But if one of those things slip, those injuries/nagging pains start to come up. IMO its just not worth it.
I hit a muscle group every 6-8 days with no issues and make consistent progress and stay healthy/injury free. I don't have to worry about not being fully recovered or any of that jazz.
I feel like now that I'm in my 30s and have been lifting for 15+ years. I've come full circle and realized a good 'bro split' is the best way to train as a lifestyle/long term plan. I tried the PPL, U/L, PHAT, PHUL, FST7 and all those other 'new and cutting edge' programs when they came out. Just didn't work for me on a long term basis.
The guys that do like 20 sets to failure per day and ****, yeah maybe 1 a week is actually too much still.
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