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Forum » Mass vaccination - a firefighter’s observations
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Thread: Mass vaccination - a firefighter’s observations

post 1648990983 10-15-2021, 01:00 PM
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Originally Posted By J.L.C.⏩
You feel the extra couple months of detectable antibodies are worth the risk of (intentional) infection?
I see you deleted your original post..I’ll repeat

not vaccinated, Natural Antibodies last years..

Immunity to the Coronavirus May Last Years, New Data Hint
Blood samples from recovered patients suggest a powerful, long-lasting immune response, researchers reported.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nyt...unity.amp.html
post 1648991093 10-15-2021, 01:02 PM
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Originally Posted By J.L.C.⏩
You feel the extra couple months of detectable antibodies are worth the risk of (intentional) infection?
most infection is unintentional , Antibodies are a red herring in long-term immunity
post 1648991173 10-15-2021, 01:03 PM
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Originally Posted By Paul
I see you deleted your original post..I’ll repeat

not vaccinated, Natural Antibodies last years..

Immunity to the Coronavirus May Last Years, New Data Hint
Blood samples from recovered patients suggest a powerful, long-lasting immune response, researchers reported.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nyt...unity.amp.html
From your link:
"Eight months after infection, most people who have recovered still have enough immune cells to fend off the virus and prevent illness, the new data show. A slow rate of decline in the short term suggests, happily, that these cells may persist in the body for a very, very long time to come.
The research, published online, has not been peer-reviewed nor published in a scientific journal. But it is the most comprehensive and long-ranging study of immune memory to the coronavirus to date.
“That amount of memory would likely prevent the vast majority of people from getting hospitalized disease, severe disease, for many years,” said Shane Crotty, a virologist at the La Jolla Institute of Immunology who co-led the new study.
The findings are likely to come as a relief to experts worried that immunity to the virus might be short-lived, and that vaccines might have to be administered repeatedly to keep the pandemic under control."
The authors are confusing antibodies with T- and B-cell responses. Vaccines also provide T- and B-cell responses.

Also from your link:
"A small number of infected people in the new study did not have long-lasting immunity after recovery, perhaps because of differences in the amounts of coronavirus they were exposed to. But vaccines can overcome that individual variability, said Jennifer Gommerman, an immunologist at the University of Toronto.
“That will help in focusing the response, so you don’t get the same kind of heterogeneity that you would see in an infected population,” she said."

"In recent months, reports of waning antibody levels have created worry that immunity to the coronavirus may disappear in a few months, leaving people vulnerable to the virus again.
But many immunologists have noted that it is natural for antibody levels to drop. Besides, antibodies are just one arm of the immune system.
Although antibodies in the blood are needed to block the virus and forestall a second infection — a condition known as sterilizing immunity — immune cells that “remember” the virus more often are responsible for preventing serious illness.
“Sterilizing immunity doesn’t happen very often — that is not the norm,” said Alessandro Sette, an immunologist at the La Jolla Institute of Immunology and co-leader of the study.
More often, people become infected a second time with a particular pathogen, and the immune system recognizes the invader and quickly extinguishes the infection. The coronavirus in particular is slow to do harm, giving the immune system plenty of time to kick into gear."
post 1648991183 10-15-2021, 01:04 PM
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Originally Posted By Torrr⏩
These numbers are not credible.

Experience in Alberta:

My mother had the first shot in March, developed a painless rash along her arms, her family doctor had zero concern with it.

2nd shot in the first week of April, rash worsens within 2 weeks, it has more of a visible bloodiness (best I can describe it) to it, developed a blood clot 2 weeks later, dies in hospital 1 month later after spending 2 weeks there.

Best the nurses could do about the strange bloodied rash is comment "never seen anything like it."

None of this was recorded as a adverse reaction.
I'm sorry for your loss. My ex husband died of a heart attack [or at least that is what we were first told] after his second vaccination.

A couple of common effects I haven't seen listed here are tinnitus and dizziness. Rare [thank goodness] are blindness and paralysis.
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post 1648991323 10-15-2021, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted By AncientYouth⏩
most infection is unintentional , Antibodies are a red herring in long-term immunity
Right. But "natural immunity" only comes from infection. The only routes to antibody development and T- and B-cell memory are vaccination and/or infection.

So if you want "natural immunity" you have to be infected with covid.
post 1648991333 10-15-2021, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted By J.L.C.⏩
From your link:



The authors are confusing antibodies with T- and B-cell responses. Vaccines also provide T- and B-cell responses.

Also from your link:
From my link..

“In vaccinated subjects, antibody titers decreased by up to 40% each subsequent month while in convalescents they decreased by less than 5% per month. Six months after BNT162b2 vaccination 16.1% subjects had antibody levels below the seropositivity threshold of <50 AU/mL, while only 10.8% of convalescent patients were below <50 AU/mL threshold after 9 months from SARS-CoV-2 infection.”

There is a reason you will be taking boosters the rest of your life..I don’t think you really realize that..
post 1648991483 10-15-2021, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted By Paul
From my link..

“In vaccinated subjects, antibody titers decreased by up to 40% each subsequent month while in convalescents they decreased by less than 5% per month. Six months after BNT162b2 vaccination 16.1% subjects had antibody levels below the seropositivity threshold of <50 AU/mL, while only 10.8% of convalescent patients were below <50 AU/mL threshold after 9 months from SARS-CoV-2 infection.”

There is a reason you will be taking boosters the rest of your life..I don’t think you really realize that..
Seroreversion happens after infection as well. Same process. Antibodies don't stick around forever.


"Roughly 80 per cent of COVID-19 patients who were hospitalized in Alberta visited an emergency department within a month of being discharged and nearly 17 per cent were readmitted, putting more pressure on the health care system.

Alberta Health Services said its most recent statistics, from July, show an increasing number of recovered COVID-19 patients discharged from hospital went on to require additional treatment. The statistics also suggest a potential increase of long COVID, where people suffer from health problems months after clearing the virus.

“If you’re able to survive this infection, your life may still be changed in very significant ways,” said Alika Lafontaine, president-elect of the Canadian Medical Association and an anesthesiologist in northern Alberta."

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/cana...-readmissions/
post 1648991613 10-15-2021, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted By J.L.C.⏩
Right. But "natural immunity" only comes from infection. The only routes to antibody development and T- and B-cell memory are vaccination and/or infection.

So if you want "natural immunity" you have to be infected with covid.
i have been infected with COVID , before any vaccine was available so its not like i had a choice, however natural immunity is much more broad based than vaccine immunity as it focuses on multiple aspects of the virus whereas the vaccine is limited to the spike protein only, hence it is leaky and not sterilising

in the end EVERYONE is going to catch it vaxxed or not
post 1648991763 10-15-2021, 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted By J.L.C.⏩
Seroreversion happens after infection as well.


"Roughly 80 per cent of COVID-19 patients who were hospitalized in Alberta visited an emergency department within a month of being discharged and nearly 17 per cent were readmitted, putting more pressure on the health care system.

Alberta Health Services said its most recent statistics, from July, show an increasing number of recovered COVID-19 patients discharged from hospital went on to require additional treatment. The statistics also suggest a potential increase of long COVID, where people suffer from health problems months after clearing the virus.

“If you’re able to survive this infection, your life may still be changed in very significant ways,” said Alika Lafontaine, president-elect of the Canadian Medical Association and an anesthesiologist in northern Alberta."

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/cana...-readmissions/
Is that why we are seeing more vaccinated hospitalizations & deaths outpacing the vaccinated?

July 9. 45 more vaxxed deaths than unvaxxed

https://assets.publishing.service.go...riefing_18.pdf

July 23. 59 more vaxxed deaths than unvaxxed

https://assets.publishing.service.go...riefing_19.pdf

August 6: 149 more vaxxed deaths than unvaxxed

https://assets.publishing.service.go...riefing_20.pdf

September 3. 555 more vaxxed deaths than unvaxxed

https://assets.publishing.service.go...2_21_09_02.pdf

September 17. 891 more vaxxed deaths than unvaxxed

https://assets.publishing.service.go...3_21_09_16.pdf
post 1648991833 10-15-2021, 01:15 PM
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Originally Posted By AncientYouth⏩
i have been infected with COVID , before any vaccine was available so its not like i had a choice, however natural immunity is much more broad based than vaccine immunity as it focuses on multiple aspects of the virus whereas the vaccine is limited to the spike protein only, hence it is leaky and not sterilising

in the end EVERYONE is going to catch it vaxxed or not
From above

“Sterilizing immunity doesn’t happen very often — that is not the norm,” said Alessandro Sette, an immunologist at the La Jolla Institute of Immunology and co-leader of the study.
More often, people become infected a second time with a particular pathogen, and the immune system recognizes the invader and quickly extinguishes the infection. The coronavirus in particular is slow to do harm, giving the immune system plenty of time to kick into gear."


Infection doesn't provide sterilizing immunity either, but it does pose greater risk.
post 1648992103 10-15-2021, 01:20 PM
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Where is that firefighter..ems
There is an unspoken thing, we are iron brothers and sisters, we are to support each other and...It is our duty to support our brothers and sisters in the iron game!
post 1648992193 10-15-2021, 01:21 PM
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Originally Posted By Destor⏩
Much lower risk compared to COVID and comes with the benefit of allowing chit to open up, not missing 1-2 weeks of work on showing symptoms, etc
nope. especially when you consider long term effects are unkown. You're not very bright.
post 1648992223 10-15-2021, 01:21 PM
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Originally Posted By x-trainer
Where is that firefighter
I’ll be your fireman


No homo
post 1648992303 10-15-2021, 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted By Paul
Is that why we are seeing more vaccinated hospitalizations & deaths outpacing the vaccinated?

July 9. 45 more vaxxed deaths than unvaxxed

https://assets.publishing.service.go...riefing_18.pdf

July 23. 59 more vaxxed deaths than unvaxxed

https://assets.publishing.service.go...riefing_19.pdf

August 6: 149 more vaxxed deaths than unvaxxed

https://assets.publishing.service.go...riefing_20.pdf

September 3. 555 more vaxxed deaths than unvaxxed

https://assets.publishing.service.go...2_21_09_02.pdf

September 17. 891 more vaxxed deaths than unvaxxed

https://assets.publishing.service.go...3_21_09_16.pdf
What proportion of that population is vaccinated versus unvaccinated? The denominator matters here as the data aren't normalized.

How long after receiving second doses did deaths occur? Comorbidities?
post 1648992373 10-15-2021, 01:24 PM
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Originally Posted By J.L.C.⏩
From above




Infection doesn't provide sterilizing immunity either, but it does pose greater risk.
yes but if you had no vaccine because there was NOT ONE and got infected, what then?

Billions of people are potentially in that category and their status is not acknowleged

i personally had anti bodies 7 months later , a sibling 1 year...

boosters till you get it one day
post 1648992543 10-15-2021, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted By ghostfacedup⏩
nope. especially when you consider long term effects are unkown. You're not very bright.
We're starting to see what the long term effects of covid are like though.

post 1648992603 10-15-2021, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted By AncientYouth⏩
yes but if you had no vaccine because there was NOT ONE and got infected, what then?

Billions of people are potentially in that category and their status is not acknowleged

i personally had anti bodies 7 months later , a sibling 1 year...

boosters till you get it one day
So reinfection is a better bet than a booster for those with "natural immunity"?
post 1648992633 10-15-2021, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted By J.L.C.⏩
e system plenty of time to kick into gear."


Infection doesn't provide sterilizing immunity either, but it does pose greater risk.
are you comparing infection with the vaccine? That's dumb. The vaccines are leaky and you can still get infected, look at Israel, Uk, Scotland. Why would you ever make that comparison?
post 1648992873 10-15-2021, 01:32 PM
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Originally Posted By J.L.C.⏩
So reinfection is a better bet than a booster for those with "natural immunity"?
this is endemic , it is here forever one way or another , the likelihood being that it will weaken over time

whats the risk of a booster for a 0.3 disease fro the rest of your life
post 1648993053 10-15-2021, 01:34 PM
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Originally Posted By J.L.C.⏩
What proportion of that population is vaccinated versus unvaccinated? The denominator matters here as the data aren't normalized.

How long after receiving second doses did deaths occur? Comorbidities?
Table 5 & 17

Yes, it strange how those arguments don’t go for Covid..isn’t it. Regardless if the vaccines are “safe & effective” why are the vaccinated deaths & hospitalizations out pacing unvaccinated.


Pretty interesting video put together showing deaths by country before & after mass vaccination

https://youtu.be/wcziwhBaki0


It has been consistent everywhere for both the initial shots and for the boosters.

Every time covid vaccines are deployed massive death spikes occur with them.

Maybe now but in July-August, there are more unvaccinated amongst the pop than vaccinated, yet vaccinated were outpacing in deaths
post 1648993163 10-15-2021, 01:36 PM
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Originally Posted By Paul
Table 5 & 17

Yes, it strange how those arguments don’t go for Covid..isn’t it. Regardless if the vaccines are “safe & effective” why are the vaccinated deaths & hospitalizations out pacing unvaccinated.


Pretty interesting video put together showing deaths by country before & after mass vaccination

https://youtu.be/wcziwhBaki0


It has been consistent everywhere for both the initial shots and for the boosters.

Every time covid vaccines are deployed massive death spikes occur with them.
thats is too uncomfortable for many people to hear, UK is going up again with 80% vaxxed!
post 1648993373 10-15-2021, 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted By Destor⏩
Canada's adverse reaction tracker has 17,982 total events out of 56,151,862 doses or a rate of 0.032%. Serious adverse events total 4,675 or 0.008% of all doses administered.



Doesn't even show up on my risk register
you must remember that those are REPORTED numbers. I personally know 3 people with significant reactions and one of them had it severe. One girl after the first dose of moderna got sick, she had fever and chills. The second shot a few hours later she had pain throughout her entire body, she said it was the worst pain she's ever experienced, kept feinting at a function... She was going to go to emergency but stayed home with her bf instead. Didn't report. My other friend that had bone aches for a week and weakness which was not reported... The thing is, these things are super under reported!
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post 1648993583 10-15-2021, 01:43 PM
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Originally Posted By ftbwtb⏩
you must remember that those are REPORTED numbers. I personally know 3 people with significant reactions and one of them had it severe. One girl after the first dose of moderna got sick, she had fever and chills. The second shot a few hours later she had pain throughout her entire body, she said it was the worst pain she's ever experienced, kept feinting at a function... She was going to go to emergency but stayed home with her bf instead. Didn't report. My other friend that had bone aches for a week and weakness which was not reported... The thing is, these things are super under reported!
A friends sister , mid 50s no health issues and highly active, had jab, in hospital for 3 weeks with fluid on the lungs, heart nearly stopped and 3 months later can barely walk 200 yards!
post 1648993683 10-15-2021, 01:44 PM
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Originally Posted By Paul
Pretty interesting video put together showing deaths by country before & after mass vaccination

https://youtu.be/wcziwhBaki0



In B4 "that's delta bro, not the vax"
post 1648993813 10-15-2021, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted By ghostfacedup⏩
are you comparing infection with the vaccine? That's dumb. The vaccines are leaky and you can still get infected, look at Israel, Uk, Scotland. Why would you ever make that comparison?
The sentiment in here seem to be that "natural immunity" is a better idea than vaccination. By your logic, "natural immunity" is also leaky since you can get reinfected.
post 1648994053 10-15-2021, 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted By Paul
Table 5 & 17

Yes, it strange how those arguments don’t go for Covid..isn’t it. Regardless if the vaccines are “safe & effective” why are the vaccinated deaths & hospitalizations out pacing unvaccinated.


Pretty interesting video put together showing deaths by country before & after mass vaccination

https://youtu.be/wcziwhBaki0


It has been consistent everywhere for both the initial shots and for the boosters.

Every time covid vaccines are deployed massive death spikes occur with them.

Maybe now but in July-August, there are more unvaccinated amongst the pop than vaccinated, yet vaccinated were outpacing in deaths
This table 5?




That's why the denominator matters. Look like less <50, with a much larger pool. The majority of people are vaccinated, so the denominator is much larger for the vaccinated group. How many people over 50 are vaccinated? How many unvaccinated? 1500/several million is a lower proportion than 500/several hundred thousand, for example.

I don't see a table 17 in the latest one.
post 1648994283 10-15-2021, 01:54 PM
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One of my buddies is the head of Accident & Emergency (ER) in a major UK city and they said they barely see any covid cases in young people.
post 1648994473 10-15-2021, 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted By ftbwtb⏩
you must remember that those are REPORTED numbers. I personally know 3 people with significant reactions and one of them had it severe. One girl after the first dose of moderna got sick, she had fever and chills. The second shot a few hours later she had pain throughout her entire body, she said it was the worst pain she's ever experienced, kept feinting at a function... She was going to go to emergency but stayed home with her bf instead. Didn't report. My other friend that had bone aches for a week and weakness which was not reported... The thing is, these things are super under reported!
All of this is subject to reporting and data limitations, from COVID cases and deaths to adverse reactions. I'll go out on a limb and assume you'll argue that COVID deaths are over-reported, cases are under-reported, and adverse reactions are under-reported.

I'm not worried about the unknown, I care about quantifiable risk with a margin of error. Take the 0.008% prevalence of serious adverse events, say it's under-reported by 1/10th, call it 0.08%, not a concern. If you're going to argue that serious adverse events are under-reported by 1/100th, 1/1000th, or more, well I don't buy that margin of error.
post 1648994493 10-15-2021, 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted By BronsonStorm⏩
One of my buddies is the head of Accident & Emergency (ER) in a major UK city and they said they barely see any covid cases in young people.
I wonder why?



https://www.england.nhs.uk/statistic...tober-2021.pdf
post 1648994783 10-15-2021, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted By J.L.C.⏩
The sentiment in here seem to be that "natural immunity" is a better idea than vaccination. By your logic, "natural immunity" is also leaky since you can get reinfected.
for many people especially younger and healthy COVID is literally nothing so yes for those it could be argued that catching is better than vaxxing as the natural immune response is stronger and more broad based and the vaxs come with risks

if you are old, fat or other issues then yes a vax is preferable


you do not understand how the immune system works
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